if Kill succeeds some folks will say it was Brewsters Boys.

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Gold Vision said:
Embarrassment from day one? Lets see Kill get to two bowl games his first three years before we start crowning him an upgrade. Sure he is likable, lets see some results. Gophers were flat out embarrassing for the first half of the season last year.
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I concur.
 

Why are people comparing 2 full recruiting classes from Brewster to 8 full classes from Mason?
 

Ole said:
Kill has said as much before.
Honestly the turnover has been incredible since Kill took over, alot of bodies have been brought in by the new staff, the classes that remain have already been hit by a fair amount of transfers in the past.

Gray being here is absolutely to Brewster's credit. He's a monster athlete, probably the best skill athlete ever to come here in the "modern" era of Gopher football.
Watching him take off in practice close up is both amazing and somewhat terrifying, he's so big and so fast.

Brewster wasn't the evil creature most want to make him out to be in the TC.
He was an ambitious guy who tried to set up a program based on recruiting, he also tried to catch lightning in a bottle too often and found himself in year 3/4 without a solid base to his program when the recruits didn't sustain the winning.
He brought in alot of guys who will help Kill set up his program here, and should those guys be successful, Coach Brew should be proud he brought them here.
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Hooray for common sense. Even the greatest chef in the world can't make a winning entre out of sub-par ingredients and vice-versa in that the finest ingredients become bad goulash in the hands of an amateur. Hopefully, some success on the field can get the constant carping about Brewster (and Mason and Wacker and Gutekunst and Salem) out of the fanbase's system.
 

Even the greatest chef in the world can't make a winning entre out of sub-par ingredients and vice-versa in that the finest ingredients become bad goulash in the hands of an amateur.

depends on if you are hungry or are you starving. had to do it.
 

wait!what? said:
Even the greatest chef in the world can't make a winning entre out of sub-par ingredients and vice-versa in that the finest ingredients become bad goulash in the hands of an amateur.

depends on if you are hungry or are you starving. had to do it.
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That's kind of like saying


“Pitching always beats batting — and vice-versa.”
― Yogi Berra
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
Brews biggest issues were attrition and lack of development. But you do make a good point that the post-2008 classes weren't very good. However, the 2010 class had some guys who were more highley recruited than Hayes and Harbison.

Lamonte Edwards had an Iowa and WI offer.
Jimmy Gjere had a WI offer.
Devon Wright had Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Boston College and WI
Brock Vereen had a Stanford offer.
James Manuel had a Michigan State and Iowa offer.
Kirkwood had a Kansas State, Pitt and Rutgers offer

Those guys all had as good of or better offers than Hayes and Harbison. Pirsig and McDonald were elite recruits and Kill deserves credit for landing those two kids.

Those WI and Stanford offers are certainly as good as Hayes offer from Virginia Tech or Harbison's Virginia or West Virginia offer.

2010 was also Brew's worse rated class.

The 2009 class was filled with guys with elite offers.
Michael Carter - Florida, Georgia, West Virginia, Miami
Hageman - Florida, tOSU, Nebraska, Oklahoma, WI, Iowa, MSU
Hayo - Florida, ASU, Oregon St.
Garin - ASU, Stanford, West Virginia, Colorado, UCLA
Bryant Allen - Iowa, WI, Missouri, Kansas
Michel - NC State, Kentucky

Most of the players in these classes have ended up not having good careers and I'm not trying to get into a Kill v. Brew argument. However, the idea that the 2010 class didn't players with as good of offers as Harbison and Hayes is wrong. Additionally, the 2009 class, as far as offers goes, blows away the 2012 class (Pirsig, McDonald, and all). I'm not saying that the 2012 class is worse, because I actually think it will be considerably better. However, the idea that he didn't continue to land players with significantly better offer sheets than we'd had before him and after him is false.
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Bob, we'll have to disagree on this, I stand by my statement. No one in the 2010 recruiting class had offer lists as good as Pirsig or McDonald, I don't think that can even be debated.. Hayes had offers from 11 teams, including two of the perennial top 10 teams in the nation, Virginia Tech and Boise St. Harbison had 7 offers, including ones from West Virginia, Virginia, NC State, Vandy, and Wake Forest. Are you really telling me that Brock Vereen's one offer from Stanford or Kirwood's offers from K State, Pitt, and Rutgers are better than Hayes 11 offers? The top 4 recruits from Kill's 2012 class have better offer lists than Brewster's 2010 class, it's really indisputable.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Brew had it right, Gray had a chance to be special as a receiver. QB? I'm pulling for him. The 2011 team wins more games with Parrish at QB and Gray at receiver. If there had been an open competition Parrish would have won it hands down....but that's why there wasn't. Now in fairness to Gray he hadn't been groomed to be successful last year (IMO) by the previous staff. In fairness to the previous staff...they may have thought they had seen enough. I can tell you for a fact if they had remained Gray would have stayed at WR. I believe Gray should
have stayed at WR (Parrish was the best QB on the roster last season..IMO) I hope Gray makes
me look like an idiot.
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Why did Parrish transfer then? From the open practices I saw of him he threw alot of wounded ducks and had extremely small hands for a QB. He also seemed to get rattled.
 

It seems to me like we're arguing over the definition of "recruiting." I would say that "recruiting" ends when the player signs a letter of intent. After that point, the player's development and performance is a matter of coaching, not recruiting. Like several others, I think Brewster did at least a decent job of recruiting. His downfall came from lack of a consistent offensive or defensive philosophy, and the constant turnover in coordinators and systems.

It's unfortunate that some people are so angry with Brewster that they refuse to give him any due for the success he did have in "recruiting." After all, this is the same guy who recruited Julius Peppers and Vince Young. It's like a relationship that ends badly - you tend to focus on the negatives, and forget the good times. As stated above, the Gophs did go to bowl games in 2 of Brewster's 1st 3 seasons. That's not great, but it's not terrible, either.

Personally, I would rather look forward instead of backward. Kickoff for 2012 season opener in 3 weeks!!!!!!
 

People want to believe Brewster was this great recruiter because that is how was described and sold to the masses after his hire. He had I good rated class but other than that his recruiting was nothing special which in part shows in the current overall lack of talent within the program.
 



Two points, 1) with all the accolades some are giving Brewster for recruiting I believe he failed in one area I don't think has been noted. His balance of positions in classes recruited. I think he failed to have a real plan/vision for his team in that regard and left Kill with some major scrambling and decisions to make his first year. 2) I'm in agreement big time with the statement earlier about Kill and establishing a real culture for success. It starts with the classroom,carries over to really all football related endeavors. I don't know if there was ever a foundation to really succeed with Brewster and it seems like that was Kills first priority.
 

Clearly changing play style philosophies severely hampered any progress that could be made with the alleged improved recruiting. I personally think Brewster was a pretty good recruiter, but when it comes to program building, that was ish. But at the same time, when I talk recruiting, I'm talking about the getting sought after talent to talk to you and closing the door with a commit.

But you can have a top 10 recruiting class, as an excellent recruiter, and come nowhere near close to building a program well. Some will say that makes you a bad recruiter, and I won't argue with them, cause that's their opinion of the definition. Honestly, I don't see why it matters, if you aren't winning games, I don't care what you brought in, I'm not happy.
 

scools12 said:
People want to believe Brewster was this great recruiter because that is how was described and sold to the masses after his hire.
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I know for a fact (not "want to believe") that Brewster was a great recruiter because I have eyes and a brain and can read and think. I don't base my knowledge on how things are "packaged" and "sold" to me.

scools12 said:
He had I good rated class but other than that his recruiting was nothing special
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Compared to Alabama or USC? Sure. Compared to the average Minnesota head coach? Laughably incorrect.

scools12 said:
which in part shows in the current overall lack of talent within the program
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This is a result of problems in player retention and development, not recruiting. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand for so many people.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I know for a fact (not "want to believe") that Brewster was a great recruiter because I have eyes and a brain and can read and think. I don't base my knowledge on how things are "packaged" and "sold" to me.
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Of course you do.
 



If by some success you mean winning 5-7 games per year in the next two years then yes, people will make that case.

If by success you mean winning a divisuon or conference title, not a single person will say anything like that.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I know for a fact (not "want to believe") that Brewster was a great recruiter because I have eyes and a brain and can read and think. I don't base my knowledge on how things are "packaged" and "sold" to me.


Compared to Alabama or USC? Sure. Compared to the average Minnesota head coach? Laughably incorrect.



This is a result of problems in player retention and development, not recruiting. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand for so many people.
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I think we determined earlier that you obviously don't know the definition of the word "fact".

And you absolutely base your knowledge on how things are 'packaged'. If a player has a lot of stars by his name you say he's a good recruit, without even seeing him play. If a player has 2 stars by his name you think he's a bad recruit. You've said this much.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I know for a fact (not "want to believe") that Brewster was a great recruiter because I have eyes and a brain and can read and think. I don't base my knowledge on how things are "packaged" and "sold" to me.



Compared to Alabama or USC? Sure. Compared to the average Minnesota head coach? Laughably incorrect.



This is a result of problems in player retention and development, not recruiting. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand for so many people.
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Was 4-star Vince Hill a good recruit? Tell me as a matter of fact? You might say he was a great recruit because he signed with us in February. I'd say he was a terrible recruit because he never made it to camp.
 

DMB123 said:
And you absolutely base your knowledge on how things are 'packaged'. If a player has a lot of stars by his name you say he's a good recruit, without even seeing him play. If a player has 2 stars by his name you think he's a bad recruit. You've said this much.
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100% wrong. If I've said it, post the quote. I place far more emphasis on offer lists than I do on ratings. I already said so in this thread, and you conveniently ignored it while continuing to preach your Brewster hate speech
 

ruppertflywheel said:
Why did Parrish transfer then? From the open practices I saw of him he threw alot of wounded ducks and had extremely small hands for a QB. He also seemed to get rattled.
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He transferred because he knew that he would never be given a fair shot at being the starter. Within the first week (maybe even days) of spring footgball if was obvious that the position was Grays to loose. There was no OPEN competition for the position.

Now, in fairness to the coaches they were faced with/left with a team with no experienced QB on the roster. Being the experienced coach he is I'm sure Kill knew he needed to make a decision and start preparing a QB both mentally physically for the season instead of having them go through a lengthy competition that would resulted in a winner but less 1st team snaps for the winner. Especially when he knew the backup was going to be Shortel (you don't honestly believe he won the backup position 2 weeks into fall camp?). Shortel was the correct decision when you consider balancing the classes....Kills too smart to go into the crucial years (for him) with an inexperienced QB.

Parrish vs Gray in the open practices? Open or closed practices I don't think either differentiated himself to the point that they good be named starter. Also, don't forget the 2nd team QB. Shortel showed up on campus as the #2 QB.

What am I saying? Kill can't/shouldn't be criticized on how he made the determination on who would start...but it can't be said that Parrish lost a starting QB competition that never existed.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
He transferred because he knew that he would never be given a fair shot at being the starter. Within the first week (maybe even days) of spring footgball if was obvious that the position was Grays to loose. There was no OPEN competition for the position.

Now, in fairness to the coaches they were faced with/left with a team with no experienced QB on the roster. Being the experienced coach he is I'm sure Kill knew he needed to make a decision and start preparing a QB both mentally physically for the season instead of having them go through a lengthy competition that would resulted in a winner but less 1st team snaps for the winner. Especially when he knew the backup was going to be Shortel (you don't honestly believe he won the backup position 2 weeks into fall camp?). Shortel was the correct decision when you consider balancing the classes....Kills too smart to go into the crucial years (for him) with an inexperienced QB.

Parrish vs Gray in the open practices? Open or closed practices I don't think either differentiated himself to the point that they good be named starter. Also, don't forget the 2nd team QB. Shortel showed up on campus as the #2 QB.

What am I saying? Kill can't/shouldn't be criticized on how he made the determination on who would start...but it can't be said that Parrish lost a starting QB competition that never existed.
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Starting to get the impression that you're either a BIT or a TROLL. Either way you act as though you have inside information when we all know you have never been to a game or a practice.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Compared to Alabama or USC? Sure. Compared to the average Minnesota head coach? Laughably incorrect.
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Is that what you really want to compare it to? I don't. How about comparing it to other B1G schools? How about other D1 schools in the midwest? I wouldn't try to compare it to Alabama or USC either but sure wouldn't compare it to other Minnesota head coaches either.
 

John Galt said:
Was 4-star Vince Hill a good recruit? Tell me as a matter of fact? You might say he was a great recruit because he signed with us in February. I'd say he was a terrible recruit because he never made it to camp.
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I wouldn't base it on whether he makes it to camp or not either. Is he playing somewhere so he can actually evaluated? If not then I wouldn't be able to tell you whether he was a good recruit or not. On paper it appeared that he was but without actually playing here and having something to evaluate him by I couldn't tell you and neither can anyone else.
 

Wouldn't You like to Know said:
Starting to get the impression that you're either a BIT or a TROLL. Either way you act as though you have inside information when we all know you have never been to a game or a practice.
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(Psst. The poster you're addressing is Kim Royston's father.). I strongly disagree with his take on this particular situation, but the man has access and knows what he's talking about.
 

Wouldn't You like to Know said:
Starting to get the impression that you're either a BIT or a TROLL. Either way you act as though you have inside information when we all know you have never been to a game or a practice.
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You might disagree with him, but he is Kim Royston's father. He has been to more games, practices, and has more inside info than just about anyone on the board.
 

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Bob_Loblaw said:
You might disagree with him, but he is Kim Royston's father. He has been to more games, practices, and has more inside info than just about anyone on the board.
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His posts don't impress me at all, and he seems to come off as a crybaby for some reason. He sounds like a crazy hockey parent. And his take on Parrish is laughable. Parrish was given a fair shot, he was never good enough to see the field. It's that simple.
 

John Galt said:
Bob, we'll have to disagree on this, I stand by my statement. No one in the 2010 recruiting class had offer lists as good as Pirsig or McDonald, I don't think that can even be debated.. Hayes had offers from 11 teams, including two of the perennial top 10 teams in the nation, Virginia Tech and Boise St. Harbison had 7 offers, including ones from West Virginia, Virginia, NC State, Vandy, and Wake Forest. Are you really telling me that Brock Vereen's one offer from Stanford or Kirwood's offers from K State, Pitt, and Rutgers are better than Hayes 11 offers? The top 4 recruits from Kill's 2012 class have better offer lists than Brewster's 2010 class, it's really indisputable.
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Well, I gave you that no one's offer list included anything as good as McDonald or Pirsig. However, it is certainly disputable that several players had offer sheets as good as Hayes and Harbison.

However, you seem pretty impressed by Isaac Hayes 11 offers, mind you, he only had 2 BCS offers. You are also counting offers from South Dakota State, North Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Army, Navy, Western Michigan, and Wyoming. The kid had 3 decent offers, Boise State, Virginia Tech, and Minnesota. So no, I don't think that's significantly different than Vereen having offers from Stanford and Minnesota. You obviously are much more pursuaded by MAC and FCS offers.

Devon Wright had 11 offers including offers from Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Boston College, Rutgers, etc.
Harbison had 7 offers including offers from West Virginia, Vanderbilt, Virginia
Isaac Hayes had 11 offers but ONLY 2 BCS offers, compare that with Devon Wright's 8 BCS offers.

It's fine if you want to twist your argument to say that Harbison's and Hayes's offer sheets were better than Wright's. It certainly be easy to dispute that a kid with 11 BCS offers (Wright) had a better offer list than a kid with 2 (Hayes).

Generally, I agree with your point though, I think Kill's 2012 class is better than Brew's 2010 class. But, it's obviously way too early to tell.
 

DMB123 said:
His posts don't impress me at all, and he seems to come off as a crybaby for some reason. He sounds like a crazy hockey parent. And his take on Parrish is laughable. Parrish was given a fair shot, he was never good enough to see the field. It's that simple.
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No one cares if you're impressed.
I actually agree with your take, I think Gray gave us the best chance of winning last year and I don't think it was even close. However, I'm not talking about his posts, as I said, disagree all you want. But the other posters claim that he is a troll and has never seen a practice or game is laughable.
 

John Galt said:
Was 4-star Vince Hill a good recruit? Tell me as a matter of fact? You might say he was a great recruit because he signed with us in February. I'd say he was a terrible recruit because he never made it to camp.
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I 100% agree with the players who never make it into camp.

However, I don't agree on players who play at the U but don't live up to expectations.

For instance, a lot of people are talking like McDonald is for sure going to live up to his hype and that Pirsig will be an NFL LT someday. As much as anyone, I hope that is the case. I'm a huge Gopher fan and a MN HS football nut. However, they haven't done a single thing at the U yet. It's certainly possible that something happens and neither of them live up to expectations. So I guess my point is that it isn't fair to disparage the recruiting of a guy like Hayo or Michael Carter because they failed to live up to expectations while at the same time assuming that Pirsig or McDonald will.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Parrish vs Gray in the open practices? Open or closed practices I don't think either differentiated himself to the point that they good be named starter. Also, don't forget the 2nd team QB. Shortel showed up on campus as the #2 QB.

What am I saying? Kill can't/shouldn't be criticized on how he made the determination on who would start...but it can't be said that Parrish lost a starting QB competition that never existed.
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You are right on target as usual, Sportsfan. I attended most of the open practices in Kill's first year. During the Spring practices Parrish was clearly the most accurate passer among all of the QB's and he was taking his share of snaps. When I showed up for the first Summer practices Kill had Parrish picking up the table scraps with Alipate while Gray and Shortell took the large majority of snaps right from the start.
 


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