Hutton to the Minnesota Daily: There are plans to sue ‘everyone.’

It's Friday. On the 18th, KSTP reported Lee Hutton was going to file multiple lawsuits asking for injunctive relief. Nary a word as far as I know. Has he become concerned Hennepin County may reopen the investigation?

Probably. That said, the only part of his announced plan with any real urgency was the claim that he was going to seek injunctive relief to try to get the players reinstated for the bowl game. I don't think anyone thought that had any real chance of success, so it isn't too surprising that they opted against that.
 

Hopefully it is part of a larger move towards a settlement that has some common sense included.
 

Hopefully it is part of a larger move towards a settlement that has some common sense included.

Man that would be ideal.

Some players could get some relief, others punished (not sure everyone can get off), the U still looks like they're doing stuff, maybe make some process changes .... Everyone could come out without looking worse.
 

Man that would be ideal.

Some players could get some relief, others punished (not sure everyone can get off), the U still looks like they're doing stuff, maybe make some process changes .... Everyone could come out without looking worse.

I hope the deal just looks reasonable. It would be the best for everyone (players, school, alleged victim, team).

The U should bow out of the investigation and adjudication of these punishments. They could both agree to a neutral, third party arbiter. They could agree to the "rules" (preponderance, cross examination, sharing/testing of physical evidence, compelling witnesses, etc.). I think the U would be leery of this because it implies that they are bias. I hope the U has the foresight to see that this would be in their own good.

Additionally, the victim gets relief. Unfortunately, for her, the discussion has HAD to be on the broken system. I do not understand how anyone who has watched this unfold would say this is a good system for anyone involved. Please note that I am not arguing that these players are innocent. I am arguing that this system is wholly unfair and woefully incapable of deciding that. It's like, I am sure plenty of guilty people died during a Trial by Ordeal in the Dark Ages, it's still an awful system.

I don't know if a just and reasonable outcome is possible anymore. The U has seemed to dig their feet in and Hutton is blowing a lot of smoke.
 

I hope the deal just looks reasonable. It would be the best for everyone (players, school, alleged victim, team).

The U should bow out of the investigation and adjudication of these punishments. They could both agree to a neutral, third party arbiter. They could agree to the "rules" (preponderance, cross examination, sharing/testing of physical evidence, compelling witnesses, etc.). I think the U would be leery of this because it implies that they are bias. I hope the U has the foresight to see that this would be in their own good.

Additionally, the victim gets relief. Unfortunately, for her, the discussion has HAD to be on the broken system. I do not understand how anyone who has watched this unfold would say this is a good system for anyone involved. Please note that I am not arguing that these players are innocent. I am arguing that this system is wholly unfair and woefully incapable of deciding that. It's like, I am sure plenty of guilty people died during a Trial by Ordeal in the Dark Ages, it's still an awful system.

I don't know if a just and reasonable outcome is possible anymore. The U has seemed to dig their feet in and Hutton is blowing a lot of smoke.

Yes. Completely agree. Given the current state of affairs, it's almost impossible to see this happening. For the University and football program to come out the other side without a major, lasting black eye, they will need to resolve the situation in a way that is in alignment with what actually happened that night. They will also need to show a future focused plan to deal with these situations that takes into account the needs and rights of both the alleged victim and the accused. From a PR standpoint, details relating to how they will provide addition support to help eliminate sexual assault and support victims of sexual assault will be needed. TC's donation and the words in the second statement by the players, after lifting their bowl game boycott, are a good starting point. But more specifics would need to be crafted. Doing all this would require a very strong leadership. Which currently is nowhere to be found.
 


Man that would be ideal.

Some players could get some relief, others punished (not sure everyone can get off), the U still looks like they're doing stuff, maybe make some process changes .... Everyone could come out without looking worse.

Biting....tongue.....so.....desperately.....want......to.......comment........
 

Yes. Completely agree. Given the current state of affairs, it's almost impossible to see this happening. For the University and football program to come out the other side without a major, lasting black eye, they will need to resolve the situation in a way that is in alignment with what actually happened that night. They will also need to show a future focused plan to deal with these situations that takes into account the needs and rights of both the alleged victim and the accused. From a PR standpoint, details relating to how they will provide addition support to help eliminate sexual assault and support victims of sexual assault will be needed. TC's donation and the words in the second statement by the players, after lifting their bowl game boycott, are a good starting point. But more specifics would need to be crafted. Doing all this would require a very strong leadership. Which currently is nowhere to be found.

The administration does not YET have a black eye in this, at least as far as the majority of the public is concerned, so I'm not expecting plans for a revamp in how these cases are handled. But as litigation moves forward it is quite possible, perhaps even likely, that there will be major public criticism of the handling of the case. Only when that happens will a revamp be on the table.

Bob: Do you know if other schools outsource the investigation of these cases? Title IX seems to place that responsibility within the university. Where organizations outsource functions that are required by law they are typically required to retain control over their third party vendor and in the case of an independent investigation I'm curious how that would work.
 

I hope the deal just looks reasonable. It would be the best for everyone (players, school, alleged victim, team).

The U should bow out of the investigation and adjudication of these punishments. They could both agree to a neutral, third party arbiter. They could agree to the "rules" (preponderance, cross examination, sharing/testing of physical evidence, compelling witnesses, etc.). I think the U would be leery of this because it implies that they are bias. I hope the U has the foresight to see that this would be in their own good.

It seems to me that there is an avenue open toward something that allows the University to defend its procedures overall, which I am guessing that they will feel they have to do as long as Hutton is claiming that he’s going to sue everyone, and still recognize that the system has broken down here and needs to be examined

What if the University:

*Took a position reaffirming that the EOAA serves a vital and required purpose as the University strives to fulfil its mission to all of its students and comply with federal laws related to privacy, confidentiality and Title IX.

*Recognized that, to accomplish its mandate, the EOAA must be allowed to conduct its investigations without interference from other departments within the University.

*Recognized at the same time, that those systems are imperfect and require constant review and refinement.

*Agreed that, as with any other event that calls into question whether the current process is the best process, it should review its procedures to determine whether modification is appropriate to ensure that the system is most appropriately geared toward its overarching goal of justice for all involved. Of particular significance in this matter is the fact that whenever the individual being investigated is in the public eye, his or her privacy cannot be protected in the same way that the privacy of other students or employees might be.

*Stated that even though the University did not disclose or comment on the subject matter of the investigation here, the mere fact that the investigated persons are otherwise identified changes the nature of the process in ways that adversely impact the rights of the individuals involved, both the accuser and the accused, and can be detrimental to those individuals and the process as a whole.

Based on the above, the University could commit to participation in, and funding of, an independent investigation of these matters and a review of the way that it investigates claims of this nature. In an effort to resolve the current disputes, the University could also agree to some type of a conciliation process with the involved parties to try to reach a mutually agreeable resolution. That won’t likely satisfy anyone involved who feels entitled to a big pay day, but it would offer assurance that the matter will be adequately investigated and that the overall due process arguments raised by the boycott get reviewed. Some students might still be expelled or suspended, but those determinations will come only after the independent investigation is completed.
 

The administration does not YET have a black eye in this, at least as far as the majority of the public is concerned, so I'm not expecting plans for a revamp in how these cases are handled. But as litigation moves forward it is quite possible, perhaps even likely, that there will be major public criticism of the handling of the case. Only when that happens will a revamp be on the table.

Bob: Do you know if other schools outsource the investigation of these cases? Title IX seems to place that responsibility within the university. Where organizations outsource functions that are required by law they are typically required to retain control over their third party vendor and in the case of an independent investigation I'm curious how that would work.

I don't think it happens. These kinds of cases have been a problem for universities for a number of years now and offices like the EoAA would fight a neutral third party arbitrating these cases. The problem with these cases has been talked about quite a bit over the last few years, but they are a difficult thing to discuss. You can see how it is playing out in the media right now. People are afraid to openly discuss the issues surrounding these investigations (after seeing the media firestorm surrounding this case, you can see why). So, I think there is going to be significant change coming, but I don't think it has happened yet.

As far as if the U could "farm" out the investigations/adjudications of the recommendations, they certainly could and maintain compliance with Title IX. The politics of the college campus make it difficult. I know some people think that I am coming from a certain biased point of view in regards to these offices, but in my opinion (take it for as little as you'd like), offices like the EoAA are absolutely opposed to the idea of these investigations being farmed out. They would lose power. The current forum gives them an immense amount of power because Kaler and U have to answer to these recommendations. If that report was given to a neutral third party to adjudicate, they wouldn't be able to put on the amount of PR pressure to get their way. Kaler is almost forced to take a certain stance on this issues. They know that and they really maintain power in these sorts of "hostage" situations.
 



"hostage" situations.

I bet if you spoke to any of the folks on the EOAA "off the record" that they are both shocked that anyone would question their motives or recommendations (except completely biased women hating athletic supporting people) and also feel that by not expelling all 10 that they showed restraint and fairness.

And you might agree with them...and they might be right. But in my lifetime I have found that when zealots come to a conclusion that supports their bias it is rarely accurate.
 

Bias is in the eyes of the beholder unless you are speaking in terms of things that are testable. What are the tests of the EOAA having bias that are known? I have read terms like 'liberal', 'zealots', etc., all charged words. None of them are testable. Please, somebody, anybody, relate the bias and the tests to prove it is bias. After a week of reading posts, the only bias I can find is the bias against the bias of the EOAA.
 

Dean is right. The U and EEOC look like beacons of impartiality compared to the GH tone that's being driven by a few high volume posters. The outside world is generally praising the U for there response, yet a vocal few seem to wish we'd have had a Baylor type response. Due process doesn't mean you get to reject an outcome of an investigation just cuz you dont like the findings.

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Check the EEOC report again. The student weren't all broad brush treated like many of you claim. They were all individually evaluated with different findings for some of them.

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Dean is right. The U and EEOC look like beacons of impartiality compared to the GH tone that's being driven by a few high volume posters. The outside world is generally praising the U for there response, yet a vocal few seem to wish we'd have had a Baylor type response. Due process doesn't mean you get to reject an outcome of an investigation just cuz you dont like the findings.

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Nah, it's just some people think that if you disagree with them, then you are okay with sexual assault. I don't think anyone has said the U should have just dismissed the claims from the girl. That would be a Baylor situation. Most everyone has stated that they agree with the expulsion of some of the players if what is being claimed is true.

Again, it's possible to be pissed about what the players did and to not be happy with the process at the same time.
 

Dean is right. The U and EEOC look like beacons of impartiality compared to the GH tone that's being driven by a few high volume posters. The outside world is generally praising the U for there response, yet a vocal few seem to wish we'd have had a Baylor type response. Due process doesn't mean you get to reject an outcome of an investigation just cuz you dont like the findings.

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Can you list 1 poster that has called for anything resembling the Baylor situation?

Due process has NOTHING to do with the outcome of the investigation. Absolutely nothing.
 

I get your point, but most "due process" ty pes are coming off pretty poor. If not for EEOC, the severity of this would have never come to light. Yet many on here talk like the whole thing is just a bunch of " men-hating feminazis" that should be punished.

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I get your point, but most "due process" ty pes are coming off pretty poor. If not for EEOC, the severity of this would have never come to light. Yet many on here talk like the whole thing is just a bunch of " men-hating feminazis" that should be punished.

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Are you generally complaining about people generalizing about a group of people while generalizing about a group of people?
 

Bias is in the eyes of the beholder unless you are speaking in terms of things that are testable. What are the tests of the EOAA having bias that are known? I have read terms like 'liberal', 'zealots', etc., all charged words. None of them are testable. Please, somebody, anybody, relate the bias and the tests to prove it is bias. After a week of reading posts, the only bias I can find is the bias against the bias of the EOAA.

Are you really arguing that the only bias that exists is quantitative?

What quantitative data do you have that people have a bias against the EoAA? I need some numbers!!!!!
 

Dean is right. The U and EEOC look like beacons of impartiality compared to the GH tone that's being driven by a few high volume posters. The outside world is generally praising the U for there response, yet a vocal few seem to wish we'd have had a Baylor type response. Due process doesn't mean you get to reject an outcome of an investigation just cuz you dont like the findings.

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Pay better attention. Very few people upset with the CF that is the EOAA have even given an opinion on the case. Most of "us" (high volume posters, I guess) acknowledge we don't know what happened. However, the few looney birds that have made up their mind on what happened (& without doubt would have hung the Duke Lacrosse players too) based on a clearly bias report from a clearly biased group (again, I haven't said their findings are necessarily wrong) draw more conclusions about those that don't agree - setting the "tone" that you mention. These are the partial folks, not the other way around.

As for the "outside world praising" anything I can only hope you are not that naive. Of course folks that are "outside" this fanbase will lean towards what they hear in the media and very very very few will look deeper into it. The situation with how it was handled paints the U FB team as having 10 rapists and an administration that suspended them and didn't cave to a boycott that wanted them "free". Tough to disagree with that if those statements are the (only) data you hear.


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Are you generally complaining about people generalizing about a group of people while generalizing about a group of people?
Yes I am. The difference is that my generalization is based off of hundreds of posts. The EEOA haters, on the other hand , have no inside knowledge. They just don't like their findings, so they blindly attack the motives and credibility of the agency.
Just curious, what 3rd party investigation would be acceptable to the EEOA haters? Guys that " get it" like Hutton and carter? And would a 4th party investigation be needed if their findings pissed off some people?

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Pay better attention. Very few people upset with the CF that is the EOAA have even given an opinion on the case. Most of "us" (high volume posters, I guess) acknowledge we don't know what happened. However, the few looney birds that have made up their mind on what happened (& without doubt would have hung the Duke Lacrosse players too) based on a clearly bias report from a clearly biased group (again, I haven't said their findings are necessarily wrong) draw more conclusions about those that don't agree - setting the "tone" that you mention. These are the partial folks, not the other way around.

As for the "outside world praising" anything I can only hope you are not that naive. Of course folks that are "outside" this fanbase will lean towards what they hear in the media and very very very few will look deeper into it. The situation with how it was handled paints the U FB team as having 10 rapists and an administration that suspended them and didn't cave to a boycott that wanted them "free". Tough to disagree with that if those statements are the (only) data you hear.


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Unlike the very objective posters who are sure all of the sex was consensual; that what the U did is pretty much the same as what Stalin did (minus a few million dead people); and that the woman undoubtedly lied. Hell, I just saw the guy who has set himself up as the legal expert on due process make an analogy that what these 10 guys have gone through is sort of like the Medieval Trials by Ordeal. Must have missed when they put Djam on the rack or stuck the Iron Maiden on Winfield.

The extremes are on both sides so good luck with the "I'm on the only objective side," schtick you're so good at.
 

My issue with the U was why didn't you suspend all 10 from the start, that I don't understand. You came to an agreement, I suppose the U wasn't a part of that agreement. I am not certain. Then you re-suspend the 4 plus 6 more, in my mind that is what made the U look amateurish. I'd have rather had this completely dealt with. It seems like this is a case of something that started out with consent and ended without it, etc.. That's just a gut feeling. I still don't understand how they all sat in a room and watched all this crap, that's what the internet is for and professionals. I can't believe the U didn't tell these kids of all the previous incidents and exactly how that ended for everyone involved. Not good. If the report is genuinely all TRUE, you'd be hard pressed to keep any of them on campus. People standing around and watching a rape are going to be considered culpable by the public and should be, imo. I just don't understand why privacy laws don't also stand for the accused. Honestly, if anything is found out to be a lie by the victim, her life and the lives of 10 others are essentially ruined. Even if these kids transferred they'll be known as the "Rapists" that went to Minnesota, etc.. It's a bad deal all around. Sometimes I really wish that prostitution was legal because this crap is insane and if there was a legal outlet to live out stupid fantasies that rarely work in the REAL WORLD, that would be best. Also, just like Pro Athletics... Cheerleaders or Athletic personal cannot fraternize with players of any sport, intra sport dating allowed with knowledge from the administration just like with certain jobs where you have to notify HR about dating someone at work, etc. Proper controls need to be in place, sad but necessary on some level. I simply don't know what is true and what isn't, it concerns me the accused plead the 5th on several items as well.
 

I just wish one kid would have said. "Hey guys maybe a gang bang on a drunk chick is not a good idea"
 

Unlike the very objective posters who are sure all of the sex was consensual; that what the U did is pretty much the same as what Stalin did (minus a few million dead people); and that the woman undoubtedly lied. Hell, I just saw the guy who has set himself up as the legal expert on due process make an analogy that what these 10 guys have gone through is sort of like the Medieval Trials by Ordeal. Must have missed when they put Djam on the rack or stuck the Iron Maiden on Winfield.

The extremes are on both sides so good luck with the "I'm on the only objective side," schtick you're so good at.

Well, I am on the objective side here, so I have that going for me.


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I just wish one kid would have said. "Hey guys maybe a gang bang on a drunk chick is not a good idea"

Problem with that is that from the "Video" the girl seemed to be lucid and not drunk.. We're not going to see the video but that is why the case wasn't prosecuted from what I understand. At one point, she's the "Aggressor/initiated contact". Sure, it takes a bit for alcohol to kick in or fade. When the alcohol started to fade, that's probably when things were already too out of hand. When a DA doesn't see an opportunity to prosecute, especially a rape case, that means there was SOME level of evidence that told them she was compliant.. Again, that is a snapshot in time and doesn't deal with the whole incident.. Personally, anyone that did have sex with her should be gone. It was simply stupid and arrogant to think this would be kept quiet or they genuinely thought everything was all right and weren't in fear of being punished.
 

Can you list 1 poster that has called for anything resembling the Baylor situation?

Due process has NOTHING to do with the outcome of the investigation. Absolutely nothing.
Do you mean besides the dozens of posters that insisted the EEOA had no business even looking into the issue since the cops didn't arrest the guys?

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Do you mean besides the dozens of posters that insisted the EEOA had no business even looking into the issue since the cops didn't arrest the guys?

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:rolleyes:
 

Problem with that is that from the "Video" the girl seemed to be lucid and not drunk.. We're not going to see the video but that is why the case wasn't prosecuted from what I understand. At one point, she's the "Aggressor/initiated contact". Sure, it takes a bit for alcohol to kick in or fade. When the alcohol started to fade, that's probably when things were already too out of hand. When a DA doesn't see an opportunity to prosecute, especially a rape case, that means there was SOME level of evidence that told them she was compliant.. Again, that is a snapshot in time and doesn't deal with the whole incident.. Personally, anyone that did have sex with her should be gone. It was simply stupid and arrogant to think this would be kept quiet or they genuinely thought everything was all right and weren't in fear of being punished.
Yeah 90 seconds of video is an accurate reflection of what took place over 90 minutes. If we are going to talk about videos what about all the videos that were deleted?
 

Unlike the very objective posters who are sure all of the sex was consensual; that what the U did is pretty much the same as what Stalin did (minus a few million dead people); and that the woman undoubtedly lied. Hell, I just saw the guy who has set himself up as the legal expert on due process make an analogy that what these 10 guys have gone through is sort of like the Medieval Trials by Ordeal. Must have missed when they put Djam on the rack or stuck the Iron Maiden on Winfield.

The extremes are on both sides so good luck with the "I'm on the only objective side," schtick you're so good at.

That's your example of a rational post then?
 

Did you not read that I said "It was a snapshot in time". If you wanna try and be a know it all dick or discuss, let me know. If you read what I said, I was alluding to the fact that a SNAPSHOT doesn't tell you the whole story.. It may have been too much for a DA to prosecute because that was the only evidence of what occurred........
 




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