How to measure success

[Gopher_In_NYC]

So what.

Read the thread title and see if you can figure it out Homer

 

[forever a gopher]

Still struggling to understand why anybody thinks this year or next year is make or break. Recall that NO ONE that played last year was on the prior year’s team under the previous coach. This year, a lot of minutes are occupied by underclassmen. Who is expecting a load of W’s and why?

Yeah i wish Ben had the Gophers as a FF team in year two. Gosh that would be wonderful. Realism is that this is a total rebuild and will take time. I expect that in two years, when the current class of FR is juniors, that the team should become consistently competitive . Until then, you hand wringers are wringing your hands unnecessarily.

This seems to be a popular narrative that Johnson took over a “decimated” roster, thus we can’t have any expectations. The following players transferred after he took the job:

Tre Williams
Gabe Kalscheur
Both Gach
Brandon Johnson
Martice Mitchell
Sam Freeman
Liam Robbins

We can argue whether we wanted those players to hang around, and if they would have helped the team. But to say he took over a “decimated” roster is not factual.

The fact that no one hung around shouldn’t absolve CBJ of anything, rather it’s partially damning that he couldn’t get any of these guys to hang around (at least the ones that could have helped, which is at least 3 or 4).

 

[howeda7]

Overall:

Go at least 10-10 in making games competitive (6 points or less under 16:00).

Go at least 7-13 in making games a coin flip (3 points or less under 5:00) .

Win at least 2 B1G games.

The Michigan game was close to the end. The Gophers are now 4-4, 4-4, 1-7.

 

[Some guy]

The Michigan game was close to the end. The Gophers are now 4-4, 4-4, 1-7.

I get that you made this criteria but you sound a lot like a Nebraska football fan with this criteria

 

[howeda7]

I get that you made this criteria but you sound a lot like a Nebraska football fan with this criteria

As bad as Nebraska football has been, it would still be an improvement for Gopher basketball to be at their level.

 

[howeda7]

Overall:

Go at least 10-10 in making games competitive (6 points or less under 16:00).

Go at least 7-13 in making games a coin flip (3 points or less under 5:00) .

Win at least 2 B1G games.

Another double moral victory. Now 5-4, 5-4, 1-8

 

[60's Guy]

I saw more evidence this is not going to become an upper tier program with Ben at the helm in tonight's game than I did that we will figure this out. Many on the board have been saying we have zone personnel....how often have we played it? Could an opponent be more poorly prepared to attack a zone than Indiana? So many missed opportunities and strange coaching decisions by the Gophers.
When we were right in it...shot clock screwup...Gophers gifted the ball with one second on the shot clock. After a two minute review we come out with Battle inbounding the ball???? Then with no plan, no cuts, no screens ... Cooper heaves it over the backboard.
One of a 100 strategy occurences of what are we doing? And yes, Indiana was probably worse in that regard making it a close game.
Henley showed signs a couple times he could be good some day. We competed but...
If we recruited guys who make more than 50% of their free throws we still would have won with all the what are we doings. You know: "What I look for the most are shooters."

 

[Johnnyboy18]

I saw more evidence this is not going to become an upper tier program with Ben at the helm in tonight's game than I did that we will figure this out. Many on the board have been saying we have zone personnel....how often have we played it? Could an opponent be more poorly prepared to attack a zone than Indiana? So many missed opportunities and strange coaching decisions by the Gophers.
When we were right in it...shot clock screwup...Gophers gifted the ball with one second on the shot clock. After a two minute review we come out with Battle inbounding the ball???? Then with no plan, no cuts, no screens ... Cooper heaves it over the backboard.
One of a 100 strategy occurences of what are we doing? And yes, Indiana was probably worse in that regard making it a close game.
Henley showed signs a couple times he could be good some day. We competed but...
If we recruited guys who make more than 50% of their free throws we still would have won with all the what are we doings. You know: "What I look for the most are shooters."

The reason they suck is because they have 4 captains!

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

What I’m still focused on at this point, is the following -

Are we staying competitive in most games?
Define that as losing by less than 10 points and holding the lead for a chunk of time - /t least ten minutes or more - we’ve done this in 4 of the last 6 losses and the two that weren’t we’re against 2 of the top talent laden teams in the B10 ( you could reasonably make the Argument that they are The Top 2 in that category. This also shows the guys play hard for CB J and haven’t quit on him - Uber important.

Improvement - are the younger players improving? JOJ has IMO and Payne too to a degree. Henley is still trying to having the game slow down; his pace is sometimes too frenetic, but he at least has that as a skill. Carrington got schooled this year and has battled injuries. Let’s see how they all look next year- I’m optimistic for all 4 at this point.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

What I’m still focused on at this point, is the following -

Are we staying competitive in most games?
Define that as losing by less than 10 points and holding the lead for a chunk of time - /t least ten minutes or more - we’ve done this in 4 of the last 6 losses and the two that weren’t we’re against 2 of the top talent laden teams in the B10 ( you could reasonably make the Argument that they are The Top 2 in that category. This also shows the guys play hard for CB J and haven’t quit on him - Uber important.

Improvement - are the younger players improving? JOJ has IMO and Payne too to a degree. Henley is still trying to having the game slow down; his pace is sometimes too frenetic, but he at least has that as a skill. Carrington got schooled this year and has battled injuries. Let’s see how they all look next year- I’m optimistic for all 4 at this point.

Your expectations are too low. I think first, the guys played hard last night, but we got lucky that Indiana decided not to play last night. The only reason the Gophers were in the game was because the Hoosiers played like garbage outside of TJD. They were putrid.

Then you look at some of these teams the Gophers have held it within ten points, or won against... outside of Purdue and Illinois, we are playing a lot of bad teams in the B10. Ohio State, Nebraska and Wisconsin are a combined 5-16 since the calendar year 2023...and we are glad we are staying within 10 points of that stank...woof. Until last night, the Gophers have been healthy in the B10 (Fox and Ihnen have been out all year and didn't effect rotations during the season). We should be beating these teams with the talent we have. It comes down to coaching / playing style and inability to put it all together.

4 of the last 6 losses:

Indiana - has been winning of late but clearly looked like they played down to the gophers, outside of TJD, they did not look good at all. It was not that the Gophers played good, it was that Indiana played bad (we did not get the same Hoosiers that beat MSU by 13, Illinois by 15, Wisconsin by 18 in their last 3 games)

Michigan *crushed us once already and it was arguably a terrible game for both teams, the gophers didn't score for almost 10 minutes - both teams lost good players - just bad basketball in that game

Purdue *crushed us (really good team)
Illinois *crushed us (really good team)
Ohio State (have been terrible since calendar year 2023 2-6 w/ losses to Purdue, Maryland, Gophers, Rutgers, Nebraska, Illinois)

Nebraska (since 2023 2-5 *besides the Gophers they only have won against Ohio State)

Wisconsin - since the narrow win against our Gophers, they are 1-5

 

[Johnnyboy18]

Your expectations are too low. I think first, the guys played hard last night, but we got lucky that Indiana decided not to play last night. The only reason the Gophers were in the game was because the Hoosiers played like garbage outside of TJD. They were putrid.

Then you look at some of these teams the Gophers have held it within ten points, or won against... outside of Purdue and Illinois, we are playing a lot of bad teams in the B10. Ohio State, Nebraska and Wisconsin are a combined 5-16 since the calendar year 2023...and we are glad we are staying within 10 points of that stank...woof. Until last night, the Gophers have been healthy in the B10 (Fox and Ihnen have been out all year and didn't effect rotations during the season). We should be beating these teams with the talent we have. It comes down to coaching / playing style and inability to put it all together.

4 of the last 6 losses:

Indiana - has been winning of late but clearly looked like they played down to the gophers, outside of TJD, they did not look good at all. It was not that the Gophers played good, it was that Indiana played bad (we did not get the same Hoosiers that beat MSU by 13, Illinois by 15, Wisconsin by 18 in their last 3 games)

Michigan *crushed us once already and it was arguably a terrible game for both teams, the gophers didn't score for almost 10 minutes - both teams lost good players - just bad basketball in that game

Purdue *crushed us (really good team)
Illinois *crushed us (really good team)
Ohio State (have been terrible since calendar year 2023 2-6 w/ losses to Purdue, Maryland, Gophers, Rutgers, Nebraska, Illinois)

Nebraska (since 2023 2-5 *besides the Gophers they only have won against Ohio State)

Wisconsin - since the narrow win against our Gophers, they are 1-5

UST! UST! UST!

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Stalking posters is awesome.

 

[BigGopher69]

I know how to measure success, WINS!

 

[stocker08]

This seems to be a popular narrative that Johnson took over a “decimated” roster, thus we can’t have any expectations. The following players transferred after he took the job:

Tre Williams
Gabe Kalscheur
Both Gach
Brandon Johnson
Martice Mitchell
Sam Freeman
Liam Robbins

We can argue whether we wanted those players to hang around, and if they would have helped the team. But to say he took over a “decimated” roster is not factual.

The fact that no one hung around shouldn’t absolve CBJ of anything, rather it’s partially damning that he couldn’t get any of these guys to hang around (at least the ones that could have helped, which is at least 3 or 4).

Gabe and Robbins were almost definitely leaving regardless of who was hired. Who knows how Johnson handled the remainder of the roster....but there aren't any key pieces remaining after those two. Brandon Johnson had one remaining year of eligibility....and the rest looked to be role players at best.

Fact is that the three best players from a team that only won six Big Ten games the year before were all leaving. That was an empty cupboard.

 

[goldenboy]

Gabe and Robbins were almost definitely leaving regardless of who was hired. Who knows how Johnson handled the remainder of the roster....but there aren't any key pieces remaining after those two. Brandon Johnson had one remaining year of eligibility....and the rest looked to be role players at best.

Fact is that the three best players from a team that only won six Big Ten games the year before were all leaving. That was an empty cupboard.

So, how does the cupboard look now?
Those throw-away players you didn't mind sweeping out the door won 6 B1G games.
The ones BJ wanted haven't won that many in a year and a half.

 

[stocker08]

So, how does the cupboard look now?
Those throw-away players you didn't mind sweeping out the door won 6 B1G games.
The ones BJ wanted haven't won that many in a year and a half.

You mean with four freshman getting meaningful playing time and two top 150 (including the first five star in a couple decades) coming in? Much better. Do you think today's situation would be better had we kept Both Gach, Tre Williams, and Sam Freeman? lol. We won six games in 20-21 almost entirely due to Marcus Carr. Robbins was undoubtedly or second most important player. Yeah....without them.....that team wouldn't have won more than a game or two.....if that.

 

[Go Gophs]

This seems to be a popular narrative that Johnson took over a “decimated” roster, thus we can’t have any expectations. The following players transferred after he took the job:

Tre Williams
Gabe Kalscheur
Both Gach
Brandon Johnson
Martice Mitchell
Sam Freeman
Liam Robbins

We can argue whether we wanted those players to hang around, and if they would have helped the team. But to say he took over a “decimated” roster is not factual.

The fact that no one hung around shouldn’t absolve CBJ of anything, rather it’s partially damning that he couldn’t get any of these guys to hang around (at least the ones that could have helped, which is at least 3 or 4).

Don't forget about Mashburn and Carr. They were the real losses. Kalscheur is also starting for a top 15 team. Liam Robbins was a decent player also.
Those 4 coupled with Battle, Garcia and Payne make a team that no doubt in my mind makes the NCAA tourney. In fact this year, I would argue that group of players has a chance to win this terrible Big Ten.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Don't forget about Mashburn and Carr. They were the real losses. Kalscheur is also starting for a top 15 team. Liam Robbins was a decent player also.
Those 4 coupled with Battle, Garcia and Payne make a team that no doubt in my mind makes the NCAA tourney. In fact this year, I would argue that group of players has a chance to win this terrible Big Ten.

Aww jeez

 

[MaxyJR1]

Don't forget about Mashburn and Carr. They were the real losses. Kalscheur is also starting for a top 15 team. Liam Robbins was a decent player also.
Those 4 coupled with Battle, Garcia and Payne make a team that no doubt in my mind makes the NCAA tourney. In fact this year, I would argue that group of players has a chance to win this terrible Big Ten.

I saw the stats for these guys last night and wondered what could have been.

Carr 17.6 and 4.2 assists
Robbins 13pts and 6 rbs
Mashburn 19.3 pts.
Kalscheur 13.1 pts.

Team would look a lot different and Cooper would be able to be the distributor on this roster if he were playing with them. Cooper is top 20 in the country for assists with the current roster.

Next year will make us all forget about it

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

So, how does the cupboard look now?

Those throw-away players you didn't mind sweeping out the door won 6 B1G games.
The ones BJ wanted haven't won that many in a year and a half.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

I saw the stats for these guys last night and wondered what could have been.

Carr 17.6 and 4.2 assists
Robbins 13pts and 6 rbs
Mashburn 19.3 pts.
Kalscheur 13.1 pts.

How much does being on the team they’re now affect their stats? Not a college hoops expert by any means, but it would be hard not to argue that Carr and Gabe have better teammates and coaching (?) than their last season at the U.

To my mind, it’s not a linear comparison as there are far too many variables in play.
It’s akin to the folks on here comparing Ben’s record to other coaches in their second year at their team, even though all those coaches have previous head coaching experience; a fairer comparison, is to look at those coaches’ records in their second season during their first head coaching gig - seems to me that would be a much more honest comp.
I

Team would look a lot different and Cooper would be able to be the distributor on this roster if he were playing with them. Cooper is top 20 in the country for assists with the current roster.

Next year will make us all forget about it

 

[MaxyJR1]

How much does being on the team they’re now affect their stats? Not a college hoops expert by any means, but it would be hard not to argue that Carr and Gabe have better teammates and coaching (?) than their last season at the U.

To my mind, it’s not a linear comparison as there are far too many variables in play.
It’s akin to the folks on here comparing Ben’s record to other coaches in their second year at their team, even though all those coaches have previous head coaching experience; a fairer comparison, is to look at those coaches’ records in their second season during their first head coaching gig - seems to me that would be a much more honest comp.
I

I agree. Someone has to score for a team, so if they were all on the same team their stats would be completely different.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

I agree. Someone has to score for a team, so if they were all on the same team their stats would be completely different.

I’m happy for all of them BTW and I’m interested to see what Carr does next.

Have a hard time believing he’ll get drafted due to his age. Does he go to the G League and with his way to a roster or go overseas where he’d make more money than in the G and have a great experience - I think I’d opt for overseas aid I could get a spot in Greece or other Mediterranean outpost.

 

[forever a gopher]

Don't forget about Mashburn and Carr. They were the real losses. Kalscheur is also starting for a top 15 team. Liam Robbins was a decent player also.
Those 4 coupled with Battle, Garcia and Payne make a team that no doubt in my mind makes the NCAA tourney. In fact this year, I would argue that group of players has a chance to win this terrible Big Ten.

Mashburn and Carr hit the portal BEFORE CBJ took over on 3/21/21. My list of players was specifically those that were still on the roster when CBJ took over. The premise of my comment was that some are claiming that the roster was "decimated" when he took over, and thus he is entitled to a 7 year long rebuild. My claim is that there was enough on the roster already when he took over that you cannot claim there was nothing here already. In the days of the portal, it's naïve to think that all those players were going to stay, but IMO, if we hired a coach with some semblance of a track record, more would have stuck it out here and it would have bore out better results (at least in the short term while he's trying to build "his" team).

 

[forever a gopher]

Gabe and Robbins were almost definitely leaving regardless of who was hired. Who knows how Johnson handled the remainder of the roster....but there aren't any key pieces remaining after those two. Brandon Johnson had one remaining year of eligibility....and the rest looked to be role players at best.

Fact is that the three best players from a team that only won six Big Ten games the year before were all leaving. That was an empty cupboard.

We can agree to disagree. I think if they hired a proven head coach from a lower level/conference, it's not ridiculous to say that some combination of Johnson, Gabe, Robbins, and Gach may have stayed. Playing time would have been there, so the only reason they would have to leave is if they don't like the school, or think they won't like the incoming coach.

If you have 1 or 2 years left, do you want to roll the dice on a guy who has never been a head coach, didn't recruit you (save for maybe Gabe), and where you don't know what to expect? I don't blame any of those guys for leaving given the situation, but CBJ absolutely had some bearing on how it played out, so he doesn't just get a free pass, either.

 

[stocker08]

We can agree to disagree. I think if they hired a proven head coach from a lower level/conference, it's not ridiculous to say that some combination of Johnson, Gabe, Robbins, and Gach may have stayed. Playing time would have been there, so the only reason they would have to leave is if they don't like the school, or think they won't like the incoming coach.

If you have 1 or 2 years left, do you want to roll the dice on a guy who has never been a head coach, didn't recruit you (save for maybe Gabe), and where you don't know what to expect? I don't blame any of those guys for leaving given the situation, but CBJ absolutely had some bearing on how it played out, so he doesn't just get a free pass, either.

Gabe was already in the portal. All signs pointed to him leaving. And Robbins was incredibly likely to follow his uncle....which is exactly what he did.

Along with Carr....those were the best three pieces of a team that won six BT games. Johnson MAY have translated to an extra win last year....but that would have been the rest of his eligibility.

As I said....it was a barebones cabinet. Johnson is rebuilding from the ground up with lots of young guys getting time. If things are still dire in a couple years....I'd suspect he'll be gone. But no reasonable person doesn't give him four years to at least see how his recruiting classes pan out.

 

[forever a gopher]

Gabe was already in the portal. All signs pointed to him leaving. And Robbins was incredibly likely to follow his uncle....which is exactly what he did.

Along with Carr....those were the best three pieces of a team that won six BT games. Johnson MAY have translated to an extra win last year....but that would have been the rest of his eligibility.

As I said....it was a barebones cabinet. Johnson is rebuilding from the ground up with lots of young guys getting time. If things are still dire in a couple years....I'd suspect he'll be gone. But no reasonable person doesn't give him four years to at least see how his recruiting classes pan out.

According to 24/7, Gabe entered the portal on 4/1. CBJ was officially named coach on 3/21. It’s possible he had already determined he was leaving and told CBJ that. But at least from this information, he left a week and a half after CBJ took over. That one was pretty damning to me, as he left a guy that had recruited him out of HS, as well as his former HS coach to go to a place that was well closer to rock bottom than MN was when he left. Both places he would have gotten plenty of playing time. We can debate whether Gabe would have translated to additional wins last year and this year, but that was the first thing (after the initial hiring which surprised me) that raised the red flag with me. Just from a narrative/appearances standpoint, it didn’t engender a ton of confidence given the history between CBJ/Thorson and Gabe. At a minimum, you had to ask, “does Gabe know something we don’t”?

 

[stocker08]

According to 24/7, Gabe entered the portal on 4/1. CBJ was officially named coach on 3/21. It’s possible he had already determined he was leaving and told CBJ that. But at least from this information, he left a week and a half after CBJ took over. That one was pretty damning to me, as he left a guy that had recruited him out of HS, as well as his former HS coach to go to a place that was well closer to rock bottom than MN was when he left. Both places he would have gotten plenty of playing time. We can debate whether Gabe would have translated to additional wins last year and this year, but that was the first thing (after the initial hiring which surprised me) that raised the red flag with me. Just from a narrative/appearances standpoint, it didn’t engender a ton of confidence given the history between CBJ/Thorson and Gabe. At a minimum, you had to ask, “does Gabe know something we don’t”?

Whether it is true or not....I believe I had seen reports that Gabe was looking for a fresh start. Regardless of that....he's one player. Would he have been nice to keep on the team? Yes. But him and a few of the other role players weren't going to translate to wins alone. Once again.....Carr was by far the most important player on that SIX WIN BT 20-21 team. And Robbins was easily the second best player. Johnson didn't inherit anything more than a bare cupboard.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

There were 6 players in the portal for Indiana including Race T, plus TJD had declared for the NBA draft. Mike Woodson convinced 4 of them to come out of the portal and return to Indiana, including Race, and convinced TJD to come back.

That's what a good coach does, immediately convince players to return that can help the team win. Even ones he had zero connections with prior. Helped them go to the NCAA tournament in year one, and possibly again this year despite having zero college coaching experience.

He inherited a much more bare cupboard than BJ, who only had Carr and Mashburn in the portal. Yet he couldn't convince players already on the team that he had connections to prior to stay.

The bare cupboard Ben inherited is nothing but an inaccurate excuse to try and defend the putrid product he's put on the court his first 2 seasons.

 

[MUgopher32]

There were 6 players in the portal for Indiana including Race T, plus TJD had declared for the NBA draft. Mike Woodson convinced 4 of them to come out of the portal and return to Indiana, including Race, and convinced TJD to come back.

That's what a good coach does, immediately convince players to return that can help the team win. Even ones he had zero connections with prior. Helped them go to the NCAA tournament in year one, and possibly again this year despite having zero college coaching experience.

He inherited a much more bare cupboard than BJ, who only had Carr and Mashburn in the portal. Yet he couldn't convince players already on the team that he had connections to prior to stay.

The bare cupboard Ben inherited is nothing but an inaccurate excuse to try and defend the putrid product he's put on the court his first 2 seasons.

This is a fair point.

Like I say on all these CBJ debates its not enough to fully judge him yet though. He doesnt have the same name pedigree as a guy like Woodson. But its also fair to bring up when people try to blindly defend the guy and act like he was screwed from the jump. Thats just categorically false. He had a chance.

Shaka is another to look at(again more credibility forsure). His surprise team last year the far and away best player was Lewis, who was retained from Wojo.

This year hes got a #8 kenpom team right now and 3/5 starters are guys he convinced to stay when he came in. 2 of those 3 were damn recruits who hadnt even played a game for MU yet nor were recruited by Shaka.

Loads of other teams have reloaded as well in the last two years. So its impossible to give Ben a free pass. But also I think its too early to give a fail. More of an incomplete. But he has to prove something in the portal this year BAD.