Hoffarber killed us

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USAFChief said:
FTFY.
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Look, Chef, you can argue that Joseph is a better basketball player. That's at least a defensible argument.

One cannot, however, seriously argue that Joseph is a better PG than Nolen. It's so stupid as to make one wonder whether your constant harping on the issue is serious or satirical.
 


dpodoll68 said:
Look, Chef, you can argue that Joseph is a better basketball player. That's at least a defensible argument.

One cannot, however, seriously argue that Joseph is a better PG than Nolen. It's so stupid as to make one wonder whether your constant harping on the issue is serious or satirical.
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Did you watch the team last season when Joseph was given the chance to settle in at PG?

Joseph is a better basketball player, and was the better option at PG for the Gophers given the alternative(s). Nolen's offensive limitations were too much to overcome, and hurt the Gopher's halfcourt 'offense' too much to make up for his slight defensive and quickness advantages.
 


Chief..."Joseph is a better basketball player, and was the better option at PG for the Gophers given the alternative(s)"

Maybe so, maybe not. But, but, but, Joseph made his decision(s) that screwed over his teammates and us fans, so give it a rest please. He's gone, let's....:horse:
 

lol

USAFChief said:
Did you watch the team last season when Joseph was given the chance to settle in at PG?

Joseph is a better basketball player, and was the better option at PG for the Gophers given the alternative(s). Nolen's offensive limitations were too much to overcome, and hurt the Gopher's halfcourt 'offense' too much to make up for his slight defensive and quickness advantages.
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Yes, I recall the last two games of the 2010 season.

We lost to Ohio State 90-61 then to Xavier by 11.

:(

With that inferior player at PG we beat Ohio State by 11 and Al had 11 points, 7 assists, 4 steals, 5 rebounds, and 2 turnovers in 32 minutes. What a bum. :rolleyes:
 

In my opinion Tubby built the right team. Justin Cobb would have stepped in at pg wouldn't he? What about Cory Joseph? He waited til the last minute to tell the Gophers he didn't want to play with his brother. Tubby recruited pg's so why do people accuse him of building a team without them? Between injuries and defections, I'd be curious to see what the haters could put together. Remember what this program was like 4 years ago? Hopeless. Breathe a little bit and let a good coach breathe with you.
 

USAFChief said:
Joseph is a better basketball player, and was the better option at PG for the Gophers given the alternative(s). Nolen's offensive limitations were too much to overcome, and hurt the Gopher's halfcourt 'offense' too much to make up for his slight defensive and quickness advantages.
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You're right, Nolen really killed the Gophers offensively against Louisville....Butler....last year vs Ohio State....this year against UNC.....West Virginia.....Purdue.....
 



USAFChief said:
Did you watch the team last season when Joseph was given the chance to settle in at PG?

Joseph is a better basketball player, and was the better option at PG for the Gophers given the alternative(s). Nolen's offensive limitations were too much to overcome, and hurt the Gopher's halfcourt 'offense' too much to make up for his slight defensive and quickness advantages.
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Chief - why is it so blatantly mutually exclusive for you?

Dewho would have averaged 25+ minutes per game had he not been a selfish, gutless quitter. Probably about 10 of those minutes would have been at PG. We would have seen a lot of 3 G offense. Not to mention that when Al went down, he would have logged 35+ minutes at PG.

I do not believe the selfish quitter exercised his sinister plot (quitting mid-year) because he was not the starting PG. This seems to be your thought. Am I wrong?
 

fryguy22 said:
You're right, Nolen really killed the Gophers offensively against Louisville....Butler....last year vs Ohio State....this year against UNC.....West Virginia.....Purdue.....
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Yeah, perhaps you're right. Offense hasn't been the Gophers problem over the past 3+ years. They have such an abundance of scorers on this team that a non-threat at PG doesn't hurt.

Perhaps it's another message board where 90% of the posters complain about the Gopher half court offense...all while defending the PG who nobody even bothers to defend. My bad.
 

USAFChief said:
Yeah, perhaps you're right. Offense hasn't been the Gophers problem over the past 3+ years. They have such an abundance of scorers on this team that a non-threat at PG doesn't hurt.

Perhaps it's another message board where 90% of the posters complain about the Gopher half court offense...all while defending the PG who nobody even bothers to defend. My bad.
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Wait....so your only "source" is GopherHole? And then you quote a statistic that is completely made up and untrue? Hmm...you are definitely building a credible argument here....way to provide a rebuttal to my original examples as well.
 

fryguy22 said:
Wait....so your only "source" is GopherHole? And then you quote a statistic that is completely made up and untrue? Hmm...you are definitely building a credible argument here....way to provide a rebuttal to my original examples as well.
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Of course "90%" is made up, it's called an exaggeration to make a point. That doesn't mean, though, that a good sized majority of Gopher fans don't rightfully complain about the half court offense, or that they haven't done so through Tubby's tenure.

It's simple. The primary weakness of the Gophers has been, and is, their weakness at the offensive end. They don't have, and haven't had, many scorers over the past couple years, and they rarely make up for that through an inventive, well designed and executed offensive scheme. Getting the ball through the hoop is the single most important thing a team needs to accomplish. Having a PG who contributes to the problems rather than provides solutions is an issue, and that's Nolen. Joseph at PG added a scorer, meant more and better looks for Hoffarber, and fewer collapsing defenses for the bigs to contend with. I'd happily settle for 10 more points of offense per game if it meant 5 more points allowed on defense, and for the record, Nolen is vastly overrated as a defender by many.

On another team, without "where are the points going to come from" as an issue, Nolen might be a better choice. For the Gophers, he wasn't.
 



USAFChief said:
On another team, without "where are the points going to come from" as an issue, Nolen might be a better choice. For the Gophers, he wasn't.
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Chief - would you care to respond to my post or are we not speaking again?
 

GopherJake said:
Chief - why is it so blatantly mutually exclusive for you?

Dewho would have averaged 25+ minutes per game had he not been a selfish, gutless quitter. Probably about 10 of those minutes would have been at PG. We would have seen a lot of 3 G offense. Not to mention that when Al went down, he would have logged 35+ minutes at PG.
QUOTE]



I'm going to take this one step further. IMO Devoe, Blake and Al would all be starting and playing major miniutes down the stretch and tournament time. Probably as much as 35 miniutes per game each. I could see Rodney coming off the bench at the 3 and even some time at the 4 when they wanted to go 'smaller'.

Chief, if all three were available would you 'start and play' all three or would you put one on the bench(presumably Al) and then who would be the other starter? If Al and Devoe were playing together who would be the pg?

Waiting to hear.
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ruppertflywheel said:
At crunch time Hoff made two bad plays. You expect that from a freshman, not a senior. He is also killing us on defense. Tubby should have gone to a box/1 with Hollins covering Battle. They now are in a position that they need to win the three home games. Hoff has been a good player for the Gophers and he is playing out of position, but quit trying to cover his ass guys. If you asked Hoff he would tell you the same thing. "I made two bad plays that lost the game"
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+1 on the box/1

'i want to know what flavor of gum he is chewing'.
 



Agree with all of that. Unfortunately we don't have the roster to play man-to-man as much as I'm sure Tubby would like, but I'd still like to see it a little more to at least throw something at the other team when they're on a run. For example, after Battle had three 3s and it looked like he'd be lighting us up all night, I wish we would've changed something up. We have a big enough lineup (meaning it doesn't create size mismatch somewhere else) to move hoffarber so he isn't guarding the other team's pg as much. I wish we had at least tried Rodney or Austin on Battle.

MJGopher said:
I am with you Underground. I also played the perimeter as a PG, and honestly, I preferred man-to-man over a 2/3. I felt as a guard in a 2/3, I had more ground to cover than if I could just man up on someone and I felt it took away some of my aggressiveness. I also know what it was like to have a slower person (i.e. Colt) on the bottom on my side. You always knew that the recovery from that player would be a step slow, so there were times when I tried to cheat that way.

Colt played a great game last night, but he very much is out of position on the bottom wing of a 2/3 zone. And, as you mention, our guards (w/out Al) are very slow to react and close. I think that they can still utilize the 2/3 zone this year with the current roster, but it should be a more situational setup, rather than our base defense.
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That's convenient how you calculated those stats. I also liked the better looks for Hoffarber part. And Devoe was so good at driving by his man and dishing... Nolen could never beat his man off the dribble or stay with his man like Devoe...

USAFChief said:
Joseph at PG added a scorer, meant more and better looks for Hoffarber, and fewer collapsing defenses for the bigs to contend with. I'd happily settle for 10 more points of offense per game if it meant 5 more points allowed on defense, and for the record, Nolen is vastly overrated as a defender by many.
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underground629 said:
That's convenient how you calculated those stats. I also liked the better looks for Hoffarber part. And Devoe was so good at driving by his man and dishing... Nolen could never beat his man off the dribble or stay with his man like Devoe...
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2009 stats:

Nolen 33 games, 26.5 mins, 6.5 pts, 3.2 rebs, 143 assists/57 turonvers
Joseph 33 games, 16.7 mins, 5 pts, 1.8 rebs, 50 assists/55 turnovers

2010 stats:

Nolen 18 games, 25.4 mins, 9.4 pts, 2.9 rebs, 105 A/66 TO
Joseph 35 games, 25.5 mins, 6.7 pts, 3.1 rebs, 83 A/28 TO

2011 stats:

Nolen 14 games, 29.1 mns, 8.4 pts, 3.6 rebs, 53 A/29 TO
Joseph 8 games, 25.1 mins, 11.2 pts, 2.2 rebs, 28 A/15 TO
 

I don't believe he even played point guard in high school. For a guy who would never, ever have been recruited as a BigTen point guard, he is doing well. You can either blame Tubby for relying on Al and Devoe, or blame the the fates that neither is playing, or both. Blaming Hoff is basically blaming the victim.
 

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