Here's the issue: Since 2014 there have been 17 MN-born 4-star recruits, Gophers signed 3 of them

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TWeber said:
We used to be able to keep the in state talent when AAU, national travel, and 40 basketball games a week on TV were not a thing. The Gophers were all many knew and wanted to be. Now, players are exposed to so much more, travel so much more, and see teams on TV that they connect with (winning, style of play, former AAU club or HS teammates). It used to be a big thing to say I am staying home so my family and friends can watch me play, but how many Gopher games are not on TV any more? Not to mention in high definition and a big screen.

I believe that the local school's advantage is very small unless a player grew up in a family that was a fan (see Parker Fox and his pictures upon committing). Tamin Lipsey just committed to his home team in Ames and said he dreamed of playing there. How many of our recruiting misses say that? Probably not a lot I would guess. The Gophers are just another team to them. They will need to be persuaded/recruited to play here just like any school. Ben will have to convince them that the U is the best place for them, and not just based on geography.
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I blame the internet.
 

This isn't some new issue related to our beloved Gophers. Not every state program gets the best talent in their home state. California, Texas, and Florida, most popular states, will lose their top talent to other programs. It happens. You move on and go from there.
 

goldengophers said:
It's a gigantic issue and the #1 reason Ben was hired. Chet doesn't belong in the lost out bin for Ben imo.
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Ben will not solve this problem, unless he is the only coach in the country who figures it out. If this is the bar that will end up determining if he stays or gets fired, it will be a short tenure.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Not really, Oturu was a top 50 player and Brad wasn't even top 100 IIRC.
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Yeah but everyone here is complaining about how we don't get 4 stars, no? And Davison was a 4 star - same as Oturu.
 

Parcival said:
Yeah but everyone here is complaining about how we don't get 4 stars, no? And Davison was a 4 star - same as Oturu.
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Number of star ratings hasn't been the problem really. But we could and should be doing better locally.
 





Gopher Teeth said:
Ben will not solve this problem, unless he is the only coach in the country who figures it out. If this is the bar that will end up determining if he stays or gets fired, it will be a short tenure.
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Yes he will, he was responsible for Coffey and Oturu, in spite of Dickie P. Have to believe this is what Coyle was looking at.

Fundamentally the MN basketball community felt Richard was entitled and there was never a connection there.
 



Parcival said:
Davison and Oturu were ranked the same coming out of HS. Yikes.
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Right. Part of the fallacy is that MN has more of a problem than other states. Another part is that every 4-5 star MN kid would have fit the then-coaches’ system (this requires that such a system exist). Yet another part is that all kids ranked 4-5 stars in their junior/senior years of high school continue developing at the same rate and pan out to be exceptional collegiate players. Spring recruiting of transfers will soon eclipse early commitment of high schoolers in importance precisely because more seasoned/developed players can be obtained after 1-4 years of college experience, at less risk to the coaches’ programs. Not saying I prefer it that way. But I think the focus on retaining high-star MN high schoolers is an errant benchmark for measuring CBJ’s recruiting success, and will be even more so as his tenure evolves.
 

But.... we got two Minnesota-raised gophers in the NBA, that's among the elite success in college ball, our hometown 4-5 star to NBA cred has to be through the roof.
 

Despite our AD latching onto the thought like it's the magic elixir...it is not the solution.
Building a practice facility was the solution...that has done nothing for football or basketball recruiting. Neither will signing more Minnesota players. Sure, if we have a Top 5 recruiting class in the country that happens to include Minnesota kids...it'll be a factor.

But, it is coaching ability that separates programs. Maybe we threw a dart and hit the right guy.
There is nothing to suggest it but it's possible. If you can't coach better than other people then you absolutely need the best players but the better coach will still beat you in the conference, like a drum if you can't coach.
 





ecoperson said:
Practice facility hasn't helped football?
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Well, what's your point? Your argument that it has is?
Is it nice? Yes
Is it helpful? Yes
Have we beat Iowa yet? No
Have we won the West yet? No
Did we have have a winning record last year? No
Are we recruiting any better than PJ would have if it was not there?
Arguable. Have we started getting 4 and 5 stars because of it? No
PJ would have gotten the same guys with the old facilities.
Have we eliminated a negative recruiting argument? Yes. But, has it had any effect?

It is for all sports. If you are argue it has helped football and is the reason...then why wouldn't ALL
other sports be spectacular too? They use the facility too.

It is not the reason we have won or will win!
If you can coach it will help rather than hurt but it won't win for you by itself.
 

Re: the facilities.

It's impossible to prove a negative. Nobody can say that the Gophers would or would not have landed recruit X without the facilities, because X was recruited with the facilities.

I would say that the facilities do improve the overall impression of the program. they look good in a recruiting video.

And - facilities are only part of the equation. Like it or not, winning programs get the best recruits.
which leads us back to the old catch-22.
To be a winning program, you need to get better recruits. But in order to get better recruits, you need to be a winning program.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Re: the facilities.

It's impossible to prove a negative. Nobody can say that the Gophers would or would not have landed recruit X without the facilities, because X was recruited with the facilities.

I would say that the facilities do improve the overall impression of the program. they look good in a recruiting video.

And - facilities are only part of the equation. Like it or not, winning programs get the best recruits.
which leads us back to the old catch-22.
To be a winning program, you need to get better recruits. But in order to get better recruits, you need to be a winning program.
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And to become a winning program, you need a coach that can bring the team up to a level better than the talent on the team. Then once you get over that hump for a few seasons, then you can consistently get better recruits.

Many coaches get a bump right away, because of the excitement of a new program, but unless winning stays consistent, the recruiting trails off
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Re: the facilities.

It's impossible to prove a negative. Nobody can say that the Gophers would or would not have landed recruit X without the facilities, because X was recruited with the facilities.

I would say that the facilities do improve the overall impression of the program. they look good in a recruiting video.

And - facilities are only part of the equation. Like it or not, winning programs get the best recruits.
which leads us back to the old catch-22.
To be a winning program, you need to get better recruits. But in order to get better recruits, you need to be a winning program.
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This is a good take. I don't understand how someone could argue that we would've gotten a specific recruit with the old facilities when they were recruited with the new facilities.
 

JimmyJamesMD said:
And to become a winning program, you need a coach that can bring the team up to a level better than the talent on the team. Then once you get over that hump for a few seasons, then you can consistently get better recruits.

Many coaches get a bump right away, because of the excitement of a new program, but unless winning stays consistent, the recruiting trails
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True. MN has to cheat similar to Wi 1991 and then later act as tho you only sign scholars.
 

Little Ricky was made redundant because he had a bad W/L record.
Part of that was recruiting out East where he had contacts and not doing well with instate talent recruiting.
In addition he was not a good game day coach.
He is gone, the players are gone; why spend time opening old wounds?
 

To me the issue is not with the 5 stars. Competing for recruits with Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc. is a whole different ball game. Let's just look outside the top 50. Those MN high school players should be gettable for the home state school, right?

Starting with the 2012 class through the 2021 class there have been 11 MN high school players ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite ranking. Those 11 players?

Will Tschetter
Kerwin Walton
Ben Carlson
Dain Dainja
Tyrell Terry
Race Thompson
Brad Davison
Nate Reuvers
Jericho Sims
Alex Illikainen
JP Macura

0 signed with the Gophers.

For comparison:

Nationally, in the 2020 and 2021 classes 50 of the 186 players from the United States (27%) ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite rankings signed with an in-state school.

In Wisconsin, over the last ten classes (2012 through 2021) 8 of 17 players (47%) ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite rankings signed with an in-state school. Six with Marquette and two with Wisconsin (Koenig, Pritzl).

In Iowa, over the last ten classes (2012 through 2021) 6 of 8 players (75%) ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite rankings signed with an in-state school. Three with Iowa (Wieskamp, McCaffery, Sandfort), one with Iowa State, one with Drake, and one with Northern Iowa.
 

Unregistered User said:
Since 2014 (according to 247) wisconsin has had
5 five star recruits
12 four star recruits.

wisconsin signed 1 four star (Pritzl in 2016).

IT IS NOT A MINNESOTA PROBLEM.
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
It's a Midwest Problem, thanks for clarifying.
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I think it's an everyone problem. Of the top 50 2020 recruits according to 24/7, 10 of them stayed in state for college basketball. Half of those were California or Texas, which offer a lot of in-state choices.

Having a few major national powers in talent poor states such as Kansas and Kentucky contributes. Lots of players going to prep schools out of their home state too (and some do find their way back home for college, but I didn't go that deep in analysis)
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Re: the facilities.

It's impossible to prove a negative. Nobody can say that the Gophers would or would not have landed recruit X without the facilities, because X was recruited with the facilities.

I would say that the facilities do improve the overall impression of the program. they look good in a recruiting video.

And - facilities are only part of the equation. Like it or not, winning programs get the best recruits.
which leads us back to the old catch-22.
To be a winning program, you need to get better recruits. But in order to get better recruits, you need to be a winning program.
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Gophs have one of the nicest practice facilities -- both in function and looks -- in the country.

That's still not going to overcome a lack of winning.
 

JimmyJamesMD said:
you need a coach that can bring the team up to a level better than the talent on the team. Then once you get over that hump for a few seasons, then you can consistently get better recruits.
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This is the cold, hard truth, right here.

No sugarcoating. No hand-waiving. No shortcutting.


And to me, that says we can't reasonably expect different recruiting results until the 2023 or 2024 classes.
 

I hereby request that Ben Johnson ignore anyone that suggests we need to keep players at home to be successful. This is a boring narrative which suggests that BJ will fail if our next Final 4 happens without MN players or will succeed if we pull in all the best local talent and are still B1G bottom feeders. It is already getting old fast...

If local talent does not want to play here it is on them and their families (and a serious moral failing it is)
 

CPTMidnight said:
I hereby request that Ben Johnson ignore anyone that suggests we need to keep players at home to be successful. This is a boring narrative which suggests that BJ will fail if our next Final 4 happens without MN players or will succeed if we pull in all the best local talent and are still B1G bottom feeders. It is already getting old fast...
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Right.

Agreed.


.......... other than ... it was supposedly the exact pitch that BJ gave to Coyle for why he should be hired. I mean, there's that ...
 


CPTMidnight said:
I hereby request that Ben Johnson ignore anyone that suggests we need to keep players at home to be successful. This is a boring narrative which suggests that BJ will fail if our next Final 4 happens without MN players or will succeed if we pull in all the best local talent and are still B1G bottom feeders. It is already getting old fast...

If local talent does not want to play here it is on them and their families (and a serious moral failing it is)
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I don't think of it as a rigid template, but the 1997 FF team doesn't accomplish what it did without Jacobson, Thomas and Winter. I do believe that's the model. Put another way, achieving that kind of thing WITHOUT local talent is doing it the hard way.
 

bizzle22 said:
To me the issue is not with the 5 stars. Competing for recruits with Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc. is a whole different ball game. Let's just look outside the top 50. Those MN high school players should be gettable for the home state school, right?

Starting with the 2012 class through the 2021 class there have been 11 MN high school players ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite ranking. Those 11 players?

Will Tschetter
Kerwin Walton
Ben Carlson
Dain Dainja
Tyrell Terry
Race Thompson
Brad Davison
Nate Reuvers
Jericho Sims
Alex Illikainen
JP Macura

0 signed with the Gophers.

For comparison:

Nationally, in the 2020 and 2021 classes 50 of the 186 players from the United States (27%) ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite rankings signed with an in-state school.

In Wisconsin, over the last ten classes (2012 through 2021) 8 of 17 players (47%) ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite rankings signed with an in-state school. Six with Marquette and two with Wisconsin (Koenig, Pritzl).

In Iowa, over the last ten classes (2012 through 2021) 6 of 8 players (75%) ranked between 51-150 in the 247 composite rankings signed with an in-state school. Three with Iowa (Wieskamp, McCaffery, Sandfort), one with Iowa State, one with Drake, and one with Northern Iowa.
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^^^^This.

I'm not one of those guys that says we must recruit in-state to be successful. I was also a fan of Pitino. Competing for the top 50 players is going up against the best of the best and we are likely to loose out on many of them and that's understandable. The 51-150 is where we need to live. These are the kids that can be 'late bloomers' or coached up or simply stick around for 4 years and are physically better than a freshman. To not get a single one is startling to say the least. These kids nearly all went to programs on a similar level to the Gophers.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I don't think of it as a rigid template, but the 1997 FF team doesn't accomplish what it did without Jacobson, Thomas and Winter. I do believe that's the model. Put another way, achieving that kind of thing WITHOUT local talent is doing it the hard way.
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Dont think I disagree much on your statement. Its the hard way unless you cant get Jacobson and Thomas this year - if they are clearly on their way out of the state (the bums) then put the focus on a better candidate coming in. If you have Jacobson coming in but there is a better prospect from out of state then skip Jacobson and bring in the better player.

I think BJ will be better on local recruits - but not that much better.
 
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