Graduation Rates....

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DeltaHog

DeltaHog

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I have seen a lot of posts recently about "Go to the SEC where they don't make you go to class" or "The SEC doesn't graduate any of their football players"

I am not trying to start a pissing match on your board, but I'm just curious where you are getting your data to support the SEC has far worse graduation rates than any other team or conference. I'm have been looking around this afternoon and found some interesting observations.

Looking at these numbers from the Bootleg's graduation rate 2012 analysis, yes the Big 10 overall has a better graduation rate, but it's not overwhelmingly higher than the SEC. In fact, Minnesota and Arkansas are in the bottom 5 out of 24 in graduation rates.

Football Graduation Rates: Big Ten
Northwestern 94%
Penn St. 87%
Iowa 83%
Illinois 76%
Michigan 71%
Nebraska 67%
Ohio St. 67%
Indiana 66%
Wisconsin 66%
Michigan St. 62%
Minnesota 59%
Purdue 59%

"The traditional bottom-dwellers in Big Ten football grad rates, Minnesota and Michigan State, were joined by a newcomer to the bottom rung – Purdue. However, what you don't see in these GSR numbers is that Michigan State loses a lot of transfers. Because of the transfers, the Spartans' "federal graduation rate" is only 42%, the lowest in the Big Ten" (Bootleg, 2012).

Football Graduation Rates: SEC
Vanderbilt 86%
LSU 77%
Florida 76%
Alabama 69%
Georgia 65%
Auburn 63%
Mississippi St. 62%
Kentucky 61%
Tennessee 61%
Arkansas 56%
South Carolina 55%
Mississippi 54%




Source:
http://stanford.scout.com/2/1183346.html


Meanwhile, the Southeastern Conference's football dominance might extend to the classroom, too, at least as measured by the GSR. Of teams currently in the coaches poll, the SEC had five of the top 13 when ordered by GSR. Football heavyweights LSU (No 6, 77% GSR), Alabama (No. 7, 75%) and Florida (No. 8, 75%) led the way for the SEC. Those teams are all in the top six of the coaches poll.

Source:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ates-notre-dame-sec-college-football/1656329/






So - Let the bashing of DeltaHog begin. Granted, I did not spend a ton of time researching this and I don't know if these sources are credible. Please correct me if you have different data. Again, not trying to start a sh!tstorm, just trying to understand.
 

OK. I read a little more after I posted. It looks like the numbers can be made to read a little different when you factor in transfers. Still don't know that this proves or disproves anything. But to be fair, it needed to be included.


Vanderbilt continues lead the SEC in football grad rates. No surprise there. LSU and Florida are next with reported GSRs of 77% and 76%, which is somewhat of a surprise to us. Part of the reason LSU and Florida reported relatively high grad rates is that they don't have to count all the transfers they lost. These two programs churn through a remarkable number of transfers. With outgoing transfers taken into account, both LSU and Florida have a "federal graduation rate" of just 48% -- almost 30 percentage points lower than their reported GSRs. Now you can see why the football factories lobbied the NCAA to adopt the factory-friendly GSR system of measuring graduation rates(Bootleg, 2012).
 

I think you meant to post this on a different website. Who cares about SEC grad rates?
 

Is it downright embarrassing to anyone else that Alabama graduates 10% more of it's players than Minnesota? With the number of players that get drafted early at Alabama versus the number from Minnesota that I could probably count on 1 hand. It's really a bit of a joke if you ask me. I know Jerry is working on turning this around and I hope he can take us out of the bottom dwellers of the B1G soon. There is no reason we shouldn't be graduating 90% like Penn State and Northwestern. We are a great school.

59% is really sad. All those scholarship dollars going to waste while a hard working student is racking up tens of thousands in debt. It's no wonder the faculty doesn't really support the team.
 

DeltaHog said:
OK. I read a little more after I posted. It looks like the numbers can be made to read a little different when you factor in transfers. Still don't know that this proves or disproves anything. But to be fair, it needed to be included.


Vanderbilt continues lead the SEC in football grad rates. No surprise there. LSU and Florida are next with reported GSRs of 77% and 76%, which is somewhat of a surprise to us. Part of the reason LSU and Florida reported relatively high grad rates is that they don't have to count all the transfers they lost. These two programs churn through a remarkable number of transfers. With outgoing transfers taken into account, both LSU and Florida have a "federal graduation rate" of just 48% -- almost 30 percentage points lower than their reported GSRs. Now you can see why the football factories lobbied the NCAA to adopt the factory-friendly GSR system of measuring graduation rates(Bootleg, 2012).
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All quite true. Delta Hog what you're running into on the board the last few days isn't an anti-SEC screed, it's all about Wisconsin.
 


The problem with the SEC isn't that they don't make kids go to class. It is that they have lower admittance standards and also less rigorous coursework at the lowest levels.

That is okay though.
It is what it is.

The SEC schools kinda have to have lower admission standards. The public school system in the deep south is not as good as it is in the Northeast and Midwest...there isn't the same demand for spots so they have lower standards.
 

graduating still really has nothing to do with whether or not you have to attend class. think of all the scandals with artificial grade inflation. simple grad %s really don't mean squat for the most part. being in college where certain athletes are treated as gods (not going to call out the specific school, but you can probably figure it out) and getting to be a teaching assistant, you see the coursework and how rigorous it is to get a degree in certain fields, I know just having the grad % is not enough. just my two cents.
 

afurry91 said:
Is it downright embarrassing to anyone else that Alabama graduates 10% more of it's players than Minnesota? With the number of players that get drafted early at Alabama versus the number from Minnesota that I could probably count on 1 hand. It's really a bit of a joke if you ask me. I know Jerry is working on turning this around and I hope he can take us out of the bottom dwellers of the B1G soon. There is no reason we shouldn't be graduating 90% like Penn State and Northwestern. We are a great school.

59% is really sad. All those scholarship dollars going to waste while a hard working student is racking up tens of thousands in debt. It's no wonder the faculty doesn't really support the team.
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I would guess the number of our players who have transferred/were kicked out probably rivals Alabama's number of underclassmen entering the draft from the past few years. I don't think our coaching turnovers have helped a lot in that regard. I could be wrong though.

Either way you shake it, 59% is pretty brutal.

Edit: not to mention Brewster recruiting players with questionable academics coming out of high school who didn't pan out, and maybe left after a semester or two.
 

This is something we need to get in order. Graduating college is honestly not that difficult, especially if you pick an easy major. I had several friends who attended well under half of their classes and still graduated with better than a B average.
 



I don't doubt the numbers, but outside of Vandy I don't have any respect for the "schools" in the SEC. They may graduate some kids through their system, but I just don't trust that part of the country to educate people.
 


I am happy all those kids from Alabama graduated...now if they could only read.

No matter what stats you pull out...there is no doubt that the B1G is far superior to the SEC overall in academics. Period. The SEC doesn't deny it.

I don't use that as an excuse for them being far superior to us in football (which we don't deny). It is what it is. I have absolute confidence that the Big Ten will win back to back national championships long before Alabama gains admission to the AAU.
 

Historically, the U has had significant problems with graduating its general student body on time/at all. While it has made dramatic improvements over its 15.5% four-year graduation rate nadir for the matriculating class of 1992 -- yes, only 15.5 of every 100 students who entered Fall 1992 graduated on time -- the on-time graduation rate is still hovering around 50%. Football graduation rates appear to exceed that of the general student population, which is nice, but it's difficult to have superior program graduation rates when the culture of the university works against it.
 



DeltaHog said:
I have seen a lot of posts recently about "Go to the SEC where they don't make you go to class" or "The SEC doesn't graduate any of their football players"

I am not trying to start a pissing match on your board, but I'm just curious where you are getting your data to support the SEC has far worse graduation rates than any other team or conference. I'm have been looking around this afternoon and found some interesting observations.

Looking at these numbers from the Bootleg's graduation rate 2012 analysis, yes the Big 10 overall has a better graduation rate, but it's not overwhelmingly higher than the SEC. In fact, Minnesota and Arkansas are in the bottom 5 out of 24 in graduation rates.

Football Graduation Rates: Big Ten
Northwestern 94%
Penn St. 87%
Iowa 83%
Illinois 76%
Michigan 71%
Nebraska 67%
Ohio St. 67%
Indiana 66%
Wisconsin 66%
Michigan St. 62%
Minnesota 59%
Purdue 59%

"The traditional bottom-dwellers in Big Ten football grad rates, Minnesota and Michigan State, were joined by a newcomer to the bottom rung – Purdue. However, what you don't see in these GSR numbers is that Michigan State loses a lot of transfers. Because of the transfers, the Spartans' "federal graduation rate" is only 42%, the lowest in the Big Ten" (Bootleg, 2012).

Football Graduation Rates: SEC
Vanderbilt 86%
LSU 77%
Florida 76%
Alabama 69%
Georgia 65%
Auburn 63%
Mississippi St. 62%
Kentucky 61%
Tennessee 61%
Arkansas 56%
South Carolina 55%
Mississippi 54%




Source:
http://stanford.scout.com/2/1183346.html


Meanwhile, the Southeastern Conference's football dominance might extend to the classroom, too, at least as measured by the GSR. Of teams currently in the coaches poll, the SEC had five of the top 13 when ordered by GSR. Football heavyweights LSU (No 6, 77% GSR), Alabama (No. 7, 75%) and Florida (No. 8, 75%) led the way for the SEC. Those teams are all in the top six of the coaches poll.

Source:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ates-notre-dame-sec-college-football/1656329/






So - Let the bashing of DeltaHog begin. Granted, I did not spend a ton of time researching this and I don't know if these sources are credible. Please correct me if you have different data. Again, not trying to start a sh!tstorm, just trying to understand.
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I just assumed that if they were south of the Mason Dixon Line that they must be inbred morons.
 


Tell me how many Academic All Americans are produced at SEC schools vs The B1G. When the SEC starts producing more then we can start discussing Academics. Because Brewster, was such a disaster, we'll need a couple more years of Coach Kill, to really move the GSR. This year the football team had 31 Academic All Big Ten Athletes.
 

Rosemountian said:
The problem with the SEC isn't that they don't make kids go to class. It is that they have lower admittance standards and also less rigorous coursework at the lowest levels.

That is okay though.
It is what it is.

The SEC schools kinda have to have lower admission standards. The public school system in the deep south is not as good as it is in the Northeast and Midwest...there isn't the same demand for spots so they have lower standards.
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THIS! a thousand times THIS. practically everyone knows that the football factories in the SEC have what are essentially "joke" majors for some of these athletes. this in turn enables them to stay eligible and in turn artificially inflates the graduation rates of some of the SEC schools. i might be mistaken, but i am of the impression that many schools in the big ten and pac 12 don't have general colleges where as many of the SEC schools do. that college is where you often find a number of these borderline, if not below the admittance line, SEC athletes taking their "major" course work.
 

Kill has mentioned academic support as much as facilities as a need here at the U. Academic support is critical to any program. Just ask Clem Haskin(s).
 

The latest report was released in October:

"Football made a 10-point jump to 69 percent and basketball improved 11 points to 54 percent, marking the highest GSR scores ever for those two sports at Minnesota."

http://www.gophersports.com/genrel/102512aaa.html

Northwestern 97
Penn State 91
Iowa: 82
Illinois: 75
Ohio State: 74
Indiana: 70
Michigan: 69
Minnesota: 69
Nebraska: 68
Wisconsin: 65
Michigan State: 64
Purdue: 59

http://www.centredaily.com/2012/10/25/3381824/penn-state-football-posts-high.html

Vanderbilt: 85 percent
LSU: 77
Alabama: 75
Florida: 75
Missouri: 73
Georgia: 69
Texas A&M: 69
Kentucky: 65
Auburn: 64
Mississippi State: 60
Ole Miss: 59
Tennessee: 58
Arkansas: 55
South Carolina: 55
 

The great thing about the Internet is that you can pull "facts" out of thin air and most people are too lazy to check your research.

The problem with the SEC isn't that they don't make kids go to class. It is that they have lower admittance standards and also less rigorous coursework at the lowest levels.
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I am employed by an SEC school in a department with approximately 150 student athletes. My duties are not in teaching of undergraduates, but even I know from our departmental meetings that we are to give no special preference to any student because of their status as an athlete. Furthermore, our university's athletic department employs attendance checkers who will randomly, and often, drop into courses to make sure student athletes are in attendance. Teaching faculty have been asked to notify the athletic department if any student athlete has two unexcused absences from class. At four unexcused absences, that athlete is ineligible to compete.

The academic profile of incoming freshmen at Texas A&M and the University of Minnesota does not look all that different. 54% of our students were in the top 10% in high school. Only your science programs top that average. Furthermore, our SAT and ACT scores are competitive with yours, and one could assume that the State of Texas admissions policies, which make certain high-performing high school students auto-admits, causes some students to not take the standardized testing as seriously since their place in college has been secured.

Tell me how many Academic All Americans are produced at SEC schools vs The B1G.
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43 Last year, more than any other conference, and that was without A&M and Mizzou.
The Academic All-American of the year is from the SEC (Bama).

The SEC schools kinda have to have lower admission standards. The public school system in the deep south is not as good as it is in the Northeast and Midwest
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America's Best High Schools 2012
State Report Cards for Public Education

practically everyone knows that the football factories in the SEC have what are essentially "joke" majors for some of these athletes.
Click to expand...

Our general studies program has been phased out completely for all students. You could not graduate with a G-Stud degree, but it was a holding place for you if you were switching majors and were unable to enroll in your new major until you have completed the pre-requisites. The problem we face is that our business and engineering schools are so competitive and require such a time commitment to study that the average student, let alone a student athlete who must practice and travel to competitions, has a hard enough time getting in and keeping up.

- - - - -

Now, I'm not going to dispute that there may be, on average, better academics north of the Mason Dixon line, and that graduation rates, admissions standards, and the like may be higher in some schools than others. However, please do not insinuate that all of us in the SEC are walking barefoot to class in our overalls to lurn us sum readin', ritin', and 'rithmatic before playin' hookie and headin' down to the fishin' hole and hopin' coach don't find us there.

Our academic profile, and the accomplishments of our student athletes is high enough not to warrant many of the claims made in this thread. Besides, academic smack talk on a football forum to justify why six SEC teams and nine southern schools are ranked above the top B1G team in the BCS, well, that's just weak. ;)
 

Again not going to get into this debate. It wouldn't have even started without B.B. going to the SEC. One question though Texas Aggie. Know it's early but have you noticed any difference between how the Big 12 and the SEC handles academics?

Now if we were talking about the Southwest Conference..
 

Athletes are getting special preference. dept meetings be damned. don't feel bad cuz it goes on at all BCS schools.
 

I'm as big of a B1G fan as anyone on this board, but this arguing about academics at different schools and conferences takes a very black and white tone, when in reality it has a lot of shades of gray. B1G schools tend to be more highly regarded academically, but much of that is based on their research prowess. Research is of great value and something to take pride in for sure, but for most undergraduates it doesn't add a lot of value. The reality is that undergraduates can get an excellent education in their chosen fields at many, many good schools all over the country. An athlete, or any student for that matter, could go to a great school, put in little effort, and get little out of it. Or a student could go to a mediocre school, work extremely hard and take advantage of every opportunity that comes his/her way and get exponentially more from the experience. Like anything, it's as much about what students put into it as it is about the ranking or perceived value of a school. Again, this is especially true for undergrads.
 

I think it is all about perception. Southern schools, particularly SEC school's are perceived by many, mostly college football analysts on ESPN and other networks, to be less rigorous academically than schools in other conferences. I think that is where a lot of it comes from. Reality, quite frankly, may be quite different.

And, in all fairness TexasAggie11, you just became an SEC school. So, you may not have the same perception, at least in everyone else's eyes, college football analysts mainly, that many other SEC schools have as far as academics are concerned.
 

Jewhan Edwards just dragging us down again! Damn you JewJewParty!
 

year of the gopher said:
I'm as big of a B1G fan as anyone on this board, but this arguing about academics at different schools and conferences takes a very black and white tone, when in reality it has a lot of shades of gray. B1G schools tend to be more highly regarded academically, but much of that is based on their research prowess. Research is of great value and something to take pride in for sure, but for most undergraduates it doesn't add a lot of value. The reality is that undergraduates can get an excellent education in their chosen fields at many, many good schools all over the country. An athlete, or any student for that matter, could go to a great school, put in little effort, and get little out of it. Or a student could go to a mediocre school, work extremely hard and take advantage of every opportunity that comes his/her way and get exponentially more from the experience. Like anything, it's as much about what students put into it as it is about the ranking or perceived value of a school. Again, this is especially true for undergrads.
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+1. My thoughts exactly.
 


Iceland12 said:
have you noticed any difference between how the Big 12 and the SEC handles academics?
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Conference-level academic issues don't necessarily trickle down to my level in an academic department (or at least from my perspective as being focused on extension and research instead of teaching). Most of these things are internal to the athletic department or the compliance department.

With the move to the SEC, we have had meetings with the athletics compliance office about what is expected and what the rules are. This is simply because athletics at A&M have taken on a higher profile and are in the national spotlight once again, and we want to make sure there is no dirt to dig up on athletes cheating or not going to class.

For all students, not just athletes, we have the Aggie Code of Honor, and it must be signed by students on every exam. The Honor Office works to reduce all academic dishonesty. On an institution-wide basis, the commitment to not lying, cheating, or stealing is much higher than I have seen in any other organization.

Being a land-grant university (like Minnesota), we have a natural home in the SEC because of schools like Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, Auburn, LSU, Georgia, and Mississippi State. Even before the move, we have been collaborating on practical research for the public good with all of these schools. Prior to each football game this year our e-newsletter, TAMU Times, featured some of the research we were participating with alongside our opponent. Here's an example from UF:
http://tamutimes.tamu.edu/previous-issues/2012/2012-09-07.html
 

e.bigelow said:
And, in all fairness TexasAggie11, you just became an SEC school. So, you may not have the same perception, at least in everyone else's eyes, college football analysts mainly, that many other SEC schools have as far as academics are concerned.
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Texas A&M, and to a lesser degree Mizzou, did have a positive impact on SEC academics. I think the bottom half of the pack gives us the bad rap, because the top half of our schools are all in the top 100 in academics.

SEC -- Average of 98.7

17. Vandy

54. Florida

63. Georgia

65. Texas A&M

77. Alabama

89. Auburn

97. Missouri

101. Tennessee

115. South Carolina

125. Kentucky

134. LSU

134. Arkansas

151. Ole Miss

160. Mississippi State
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http://outkickthecoverage.com/us-news-rankings-of-top-six-football-conferences.php
 

[QUOTE=TexasAggie11;620534]Texas A&M, and to a lesser degree Mizzou, did have a positive impact on SEC academics. I think the bottom half of the pack gives us the bad rap, because the top half of our schools are all in the top 100 in academics.


http://outkickthecoverage.com/us-news-rankings-of-top-six-football-conferences.php[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. :) Not saying I think the SEC is some how academically inferior, just seems like a lot of analysts and commentators beat that drum a lot. Which, I think is where most of the perception comes from.

So, the real question, TexasAggie11, is where does Texas Tech rank in all of this? Haha. :)
 

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