Gophers offer JUCO PG Dre Mathieu, will visit May 3

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oleboy41 said:
To me a traditional PG is a pass first guy that doesn't need to score to influence the game. Traditionally you'd want your PG to be the lowest scorer among your starters because his job was to get the offense started and set up others. These days with the emphasis on P&Rs and dribble drives the PG can have huge influence while also being a major scoring threat and STILL being a facilitator. I don't agree that most of those guys would switch positions with another few inches. If anything those guys taller would struggle to guard PGs so that's a flawed argument. Westbrook is probably the least 'traditional' type PG of the group but him, Rose and Williams are the only ones I'd consider more shoot first types but all are excellent PGs because of the constant pressure they put on the D
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If Rose or Westbrook were 6'6 they would both be SG. No question in my mind. At that height, they would both have very similar games to Dwayne Wade. If a taller guy wont be able to defend a PG, where do you put Steve Nash, Ricky Rubio or Rajon Rondo if they are 6'6"? Also, I should have said all else remains the same except for height.

I have trouble using the current trend in the NBA to define what a "true PG". The current trend in the NBA at PG is 6'-6'4" freak athletes that can dribble the basketball. Many of them have the score first mentality and I believe for a few of them were criticized for their lack of distribution. Rose, Westbrook, and Kemba Walker are all players that play PG because they fit the physical characteristics of a PG in the NBA. Because of that they had to adjust their game to begin accomodating teammates. Taller versions of those players would play another position where they wouldn't have to focus much on distributing the ball to teammates. That doesnt apply to Steve Nash, Ricky Rubio, Rajon Rondo. They are "true PGs"
 

cjcarter8 said:
If Rose or Westbrook were 6'6 they would both be SG. No question in my mind. At that height, they would both have very similar games to Dwayne Wade. If a taller guy wont be able to defend a PG, where do you put Steve Nash, Ricky Rubio or Rajon Rondo if they are 6'6"? Also, I should have said all else remains the same except for height.

I have trouble using the current trend in the NBA to define what a "true PG". The current trend in the NBA at PG is 6'-6'4" freak athletes that can dribble the basketball. Many of them have the score first mentality and I believe for a few of them were criticized for their lack of distribution. Rose, Westbrook, and Kemba Walker are all players that play PG because they fit the physical characteristics of a PG in the NBA. Because of that they had to adjust their game to begin accomodating teammates. Taller versions of those players would play another position where they wouldn't have to focus much on distributing the ball to teammates. That doesnt apply to Steve Nash, Ricky Rubio, Rajon Rondo. They are "true PGs"
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This is a silly argument. How many 6'5" plus PGs are out there? If Isiah Thomas was 6'6" he'd be a SG too. Who cares? and your second paragraph doesn't make any sense. When has the 'trend' in the NBA for PGs been something other than 6 ft guys that can dribble? They've always been the quickest guys on the court. Basically all your saying is that if a guy isn't capable of averaging 10+ assists per game or not massively flawed shooting the ball he's not a 'true pg' so by your definition there are maybe 20 true pgs ever. Its silly. Basically anyone that can score isn't a true point guard by your definition because if they were 6'6" they'd be a 2 guard. Well then I guess most 2 guards aren't really 2 guards because if they were 6'10" they'd be forwards, right? You're arguing hypotheticals that don't exist and don't matter anyway. Most 6'6" guys don't play pg because they don't have the lateral quickness to guard PGs consistently nor the ability to penetrate consistently.
 

oleboy41 said:
This is a silly argument. How many 6'5" plus PGs are out there? If Isiah Thomas was 6'6" he'd be a SG too. Who cares? and your second paragraph doesn't make any sense. When has the 'trend' in the NBA for PGs been something other than 6 ft guys that can dribble? They've always been the quickest guys on the court. Basically all your saying is that if a guy isn't capable of averaging 10+ assists per game or not massively flawed shooting the ball he's not a 'true pg' so by your definition there are maybe 20 true pgs ever. Its silly. Basically anyone that can score isn't a true point guard by your definition because if they were 6'6" they'd be a 2 guard. Well then I guess most 2 guards aren't really 2 guards because if they were 6'10" they'd be forwards, right? You're arguing hypotheticals that don't exist and don't matter anyway. Most 6'6" guys don't play pg because they don't have the lateral quickness to guard PGs consistently nor the ability to penetrate consistently.
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Would you classify both Steve Nash and Derrick Rose as true PGs?

Ok. I think of a true PG in the traditional sense. They are capable scorers but their focus is on distributing. Many times they will score when it falls into their laps. How many times has Steve Nash got a wide open lay up or three because the defense thought he was looking to facilitate a teammates opportunity? He's a pretty competent shooter but only does it when all other options have been exhausted or he's given the perfect opportunity. Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook play with a scorer's mentality but physically they match the NBA's description of a PG. Their style of play does not match my opinion of true or traditional PG play and the real reason they play PG may not have anything to do with their offense but the disadvantage they would face on the defensive end if they played SG. My obviously failed example of increasing their height was to illustrate their style of play. Magic Johnson was a pretty successful tall PG (Yes, exception not the rule). The play of Westbrook and Rose fit the traditional description of a SG (score first) but they adapted their game, to some extent, to play PG because they are too short to play SG but they are too talented not to be on the court.

If a players style of play and talents best fit the PG position, they will play PG regardless of height. The same can't be said for a 6' SG just ask Kemba Walker. He may be capable of playing PG but that doesn't make him a "true PG".
 

cjcarter8 said:
Would you classify both Steve Nash and Derrick Rose as true PGs?

Ok. I think of a true PG in the traditional sense. They are capable scorers but their focus is on distributing. Many times they will score when it falls into their laps. How many times has Steve Nash got a wide open lay up or three because the defense thought he was looking to facilitate a teammates opportunity? He's a pretty competent shooter but only does it when all other options have been exhausted or he's given the perfect opportunity. Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook play with a scorer's mentality but physically they match the NBA's description of a PG. Their style of play does not match my opinion of true or traditional PG play and the real reason they play PG may not have anything to do with their offense but the disadvantage they would face on the defensive end if they played SG. My obviously failed example of increasing their height was to illustrate their style of play. Magic Johnson was a pretty successful tall PG (Yes, exception not the rule). The play of Westbrook and Rose fit the traditional description of a SG (score first) but they adapted their game, to some extent, to play PG because they are too short to play SG but they are too talented not to be on the court.

If a players style of play and talents best fit the PG position, they will play PG regardless of height. The same can't be said for a 6' SG just ask Kemba Walker. He may be capable of playing PG but that doesn't make him a "true PG".
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That is a better explanation of your point. However I think that the reality is that the PG position has changed. Westbrook out of everyone is the one who plays the least like a traditional PG but he's still great and his lack of traditional game doesn't hurt him or his team at all. Its like how QBs now need to be mobile and also complete 65% of their passes. Only Brady and Manning are 'traditional' QBs and while others have some of those attributes many now run or are more mobile than QBs of the past. The game has evolved to the point where PGs HAVE to score because you don't get it out of the post anymore. Back when you could get 15 from your center every night and you had 2 guards that were excellent scorers your PG could afford to look for his shot last but its not possible anymore. Pick and Roll is the name of the game now so you can get your bigs free and create space for shooters as well so your PG can't be a strictly pass first guy anymore. Even with the Heat Chalmers will look for his shot. Natural PGs these days score. Al Nolen was an excellent defender and ballhandler and a very good athlete (an NBA level athlete in my opinion) but he simply couldn't score and thus had no shot at the NBA. Rubio has otherwordly vision and passing ability and Rondo is an elite athlete, defender and passer. Those are the only 2 high level pgs that can really affect the game without scoring but they are off the charts in other areas
 

oleboy41 said:
That is a better explanation of your point. However I think that the reality is that the PG position has changed. Westbrook out of everyone is the one who plays the least like a traditional PG but he's still great and his lack of traditional game doesn't hurt him or his team at all. Its like how QBs now need to be mobile and also complete 65% of their passes. Only Brady and Manning are 'traditional' QBs and while others have some of those attributes many now run or are more mobile than QBs of the past. The game has evolved to the point where PGs HAVE to score because you don't get it out of the post anymore. Back when you could get 15 from your center every night and you had 2 guards that were excellent scorers your PG could afford to look for his shot last but its not possible anymore. Pick and Roll is the name of the game now so you can get your bigs free and create space for shooters as well so your PG can't be a strictly pass first guy anymore. Even with the Heat Chalmers will look for his shot. Natural PGs these days score. Al Nolen was an excellent defender and ballhandler and a very good athlete (an NBA level athlete in my opinion) but he simply couldn't score and thus had no shot at the NBA. Rubio has otherwordly vision and passing ability and Rondo is an elite athlete, defender and passer. Those are the only 2 high level pgs that can really affect the game without scoring but they are off the charts in other areas
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Yes, capable scorers but not dedicated to scoring.
 


I believe Rose is a point guard through and through. When you say "pure" point guard, that has other connotations... namely, guys who are offensively limited, so they focus more on passing the ball. There are exceptions to that (Nash, for one), but I don't think of Rose as any less of a PG just because he is a fantastic scorer. That's a great ability to have on the basketball court, and he can do things offensively that very few people in the league can. He'd be foolish to not look for his shot when he has offensive and physical gifts that he has.

Check out his assist numbers though - he's a more than capable distributor of the basketball. He can be very effective passing the ball, and his scoring ability just makes it easier for him to find open guys once he breaks down the offense.

And for the record - I think if Rose was 6'6", he'd still be just fine as a PG. Somewhere along the line of his development though, his coaches would have pushed him to the wing, simply because it's harder to find 6'6" guys than it is to find shorter guys. But keep in mind that it's not like Rose is short... he's 6'3". You compare him to a shorter Wade... Wade is 1 inch taller, and they have almost identical builds.
 

Maybe this is sort of a dumb question, but how does Dre Mathieu pronounce his last name. Is it pronounced Mathew?
 


So Daquein McNeil and Malik Smith are both Seniors....is Mathieu a Sr. Too? With Mav and Hollins Seniors most of this team will be gone after this 2013-14.
 



Parski1 said:
So Daquein McNeil and Malik Smith are both Seniors....is Mathieu a Sr. Too? With Mav and Hollins Seniors most of this team will be gone after this 2013-14.
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McNeil is a freshman, Mathieu a junior. You must be thinking of Buckles as another possible senior.
 

joshvanklomp said:
McNeil is a freshman, Mathieu a junior. You must be thinking of Buckles as another possible senior.
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Tubby getting canned threw me for a loop...I was thinking McNeil was a transfer. So that's good.
 

Parski1 said:
Tubby getting canned threw me for a loop...I was thinking McNeil was a transfer. So that's good.
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Understatement of the year.

Are you going to Tubbyfair
Parski, Saul, Rosemary and Thyme
 




Parski1 said:
Tubby getting canned threw me for a loop...I was thinking McNeil was a transfer. So that's good.
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Don't worry, I made that same mistake initially. Thought McNeil was redshirting at FIU this past year.
 

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