Gopher Quarterback Redux

[Urbandale]

I just rewatched the Gopher-Orange game (because what else would I have to do on a Tuesday night?). I'm probably unduly influenced by this last game, although I think it was borne out the entire season. I know Gopher fans have a soft spot in their hearts for Nelson, but it would shock me if Leidner wasn't the quarterback at the end of camp this August. He seems to have the livelier arm, the more accurate arm, and he's a more lethal runner. He certainly needs to improve his decision-making under pressure and figure out how to hold on to the ball, but those are technical things that can be tweaked. I like the explosiveness much better with Leidner at the helm rather than Nelson.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I am not sure Gopher fans have any more of a soft spot for Nelson than Leidner. They are both local kids, they are part of the same recruiting class, they play a similar style. I think most of the Gopher fans who prefer Nelson do so because he was the much better passer this season. Now, I hope the Gophers play the best player and if that's Leidner, I'm all for it. I completely agree that we were a much better team with Leidner in the bowl game than Nelson, so we'll see.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

http://i.imgur.com/tHw0b.gif

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I think most of the Gopher fans who prefer Nelson do so because he was the much better passer this season.

http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/blankstare-CtA.gif


I agree with the op, although I'm hopeful Nelson can put the controversy to rest. Neither set the world on fire but I feel Mitch brought better intangibles in his very limited time thus far. I suspect we will see more of him next year. I'm excited to see the qb competition this year. It is interesting how gopherhole is split almost 50/50 on Philip.

Leidners stats: http://www.cfbstats.com/2013/player/428/1048164/passing/split.html

Nelson's stats: http://www.cfbstats.com/2013/player/428/1048170/passing/split.html

 

[station19]

Whomever starts/plays qb next year has to be a whole lot better. 2013 qb play was horrendous.

 

[tjgopher]

I think most of the Gopher fans who prefer Nelson do so because he was the much better passer this season.

He was? By what standard?

Leidner had a higher completion percentage, a better TD/INT ratio, a higher QB rating, a higher yards per completion percentage, a higher yards per attempt percentage.

I'm not endorsing either guy, as either will have to make a lot of improvement if the Gophers are to contend for a division title.

But to say Nelson was the much better passer leaves one to wonder what games people were watching. Phillip missed way too many open receivers and missed on too many easy passes. If the Gophers want to contend, he will either have to really become more accurate or the Gophers will have to find a new QB. The status quo of 49% completions will not put Minnesota in any type of contention for the division. In Big Ten stats, Nelson was dead last in completion percentage, a full 8 percentage points behind the guy who was second-to-last and 17 percentage points behind the leader. He was also dead last in QB efficiency in the Big Ten this past season by a long way. In addition, one subtle thing about Nelson is that not only does he miss open receivers, he isn't very good at hitting guys in stride or putting the ball into a window that allows the pass catcher to continue the play. Just look at the highlights. Most of his most important passes of the season (TDs and 1st downs) show receivers having to stretch out, kneel down, or jump up to make catches. Re-watching the bowl game makes me believe (and hope) that he was nursing some sort of injury. He wasn't close on any passes. Easy passes were four inches off the ground or a foot behind guys and difficult throws were eight feet off target. That cannot happen if the Gophers want to contend for a division.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

Nelson needs to be more accurate; Leidner needs to stop putting the ball on the ground. Whoever corrects those mistakes will be the QB.

 

[diehard]

They both better get it right. This O needs 3 ready to win the big one QBs.

Who would be number 3? If Streveler is moved to WR they must be real high on the potential of McKinzy. I don't know who we can afford to move Streveler. I will trust this coaching staff on that.

BTW, I would have spelled all these names right if they were simple like Smith, Jones, Nelsen (LOL).

 

[Rog]

I re-watched the Bowl game last night also (and about the same time).
My take on the QB's.
We sure jump back and forth on either Nelson or Leidner. It depends on which game we last saw, I never seen two QB's that can go to one extreme and then the other. I hope due to experience they can settle into a steady pattern (one way or the other) and we then can settle on one of them being our starter. The whole team offense will be better then.
If this can't happen, then maybe there will be QB in the wings that will take over

 

[wait!what?]

They both better get it right. This O needs 3 ready to win the big one QBs.

Who would be number 3? If Stevelar is moved to WR they must be real high on the potential of McKinzy. I don't know who we can afford to move Stevelar. I will trust this coaching staff on that.

BTW, I would have spelled all these names right if they were simple like Smith, Jones, Nelsen (LOL).

4 bt wins in a row- 1st time since 1973. the kids and coaches are fine.

 

[tjgopher]

4 bt wins in a row- 1st time since 1973. the kids and coaches are fine.

Most everyone is happy with the progress.

The QBs played well at times, not so good at times. But, I think the bigger question is - if they REALLY want to contend for the division - then the QB play has to get better. Both the college game and the NFL have become almost completely QB dependent. If you want to do special things as a program, then you better get yourself a special QB. Hopefully,one of our guys can become special.

 

[tikited]

He was? By what standard?

Leidner had a higher completion percentage, a better TD/INT ratio, a higher QB rating, a higher yards per completion percentage, a higher yards per attempt percentage.

I'm not endorsing either guy, as either will have to make a lot of improvement if the Gophers are to contend for a division title.

But to say Nelson was the much better passer leaves one to wonder what games people were watching. Phillip missed way too many open receivers and missed on too many easy passes. If the Gophers want to contend, he will either have to really become more accurate or the Gophers will have to find a new QB. The status quo of 49% completions will not put Minnesota in any type of contention for the division. In Big Ten stats, Nelson was dead last in completion percentage, a full 8 percentage points behind the guy who was second-to-last and 17 percentage points behind the leader. He was also dead last in QB efficiency in the Big Ten this past season by a long way. In addition, one subtle thing about Nelson is that not only does he miss open receivers, he isn't very good at hitting guys in stride or putting the ball into a window that allows the pass catcher to continue the play. Just look at the highlights. Most of his most important passes of the season (TDs and 1st downs) show receivers having to stretch out, kneel down, or jump up to make catches. Re-watching the bowl game makes me believe (and hope) that he was nursing some sort of injury. He wasn't close on any passes. Easy passes were four inches off the ground or a foot behind guys and difficult throws were eight feet off target. That cannot happen if the Gophers want to contend for a division.

This.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Most everyone is happy with the progress.

The QBs played well at times, not so good at times. But, I think the bigger question is - if they REALLY want to contend for the division - then the QB play has to get better. Both the college game and the NFL have become almost completely QB dependent. If you want to do special things as a program, then you better get yourself a special QB. Hopefully,one of our guys can become special.

I feel like our quarterback needs are similar to the Vikings. Both the Gophs and Vikes have the ability/desire to run the ball well and often, and all we need out of the quarterback is somebody who can hit the wide open receiver 12 yards downfield to keep the defense honest when they start putting 8 and 9 guys in the box. For both teams, despite that modest need, we haven't been able to get it. We don't need a quarterback who is threading the needle into double coverage thirty yards downfield placing the ball perfectly where only our guy can get it, we just need a quarterback to throw well enough that the defense has to at least consider the possibility that we might try to pass.

 

[e.bigelow]

http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/blankstare-CtA.gif


I agree with the op, although I'm hopeful Nelson can put the controversy to rest. Neither set the world on fire but I feel Mitch brought better intangibles in his very limited time thus far. I suspect we will see more of him next year. I'm excited to see the qb competition this year. It is interesting how gopherhole is split almost 50/50 on Philip.

Leidners stats: http://www.cfbstats.com/2013/player/428/1048164/passing/split.html

Nelson's stats: http://www.cfbstats.com/2013/player/428/1048170/passing/split.html

What intangibles do you speak of?

Just curious.

 

[denguegopher]

Obviously both need to improve. What really bugs me is the amount of seemingly avoidable sacks that they take, especially Leidner. Both appear to be athletic enough to avoid the sacks, but lack pocket presence.

 

[killer bee]

Playing vs Competing

What intangibles do you speak of?

Just curious.

Just for conversation, it looked like Nelson played the game, while Leidner competed against Syracuse. (Just a one game observation.)

 

[GoldenRodents]

They both would have looked a lot better with playmakers at WR. Nelson "regressed" when Engle went down.

 

[DoubleB]

I beleive Nelson was not completely healthy from the concussion(nothing has been said about this from the coaches) but even if he was fine int he head he missed valuable practice time while nursing the cobwebs.
so head not completely clear and lack of practice is what i think we saw in Nelson in Texas.
Mitch looked better but as people stated he needs improvment and will get it.
it will be very important to have both of these guys better and ready to go at any time.

I also believe that the OL will be better next year as well and that will help the QB play.

 

[Monty519]

I'm not sure how anyone can make any judgments on the QB position next year considering how hot and cold they seemed to be. When Nelson was on though, our offense never looked better. Leidner's had moments and spurts, but even in the Texas game, the offense wasn't operating at the level it was for a good spurt during that 4 game B1G streak under Nelson.

This will be a very interesting off-season. Both guys have some work to do, but there is an opening if either Streveler or McKinzy step in and impress. I would anticipate, in the end, an upperclassmen Nelson will eventually be able to hold them all off. But I can't make that assumption, as he's "left the door open", so to speak.

It'll also help if we can hold onto a potential playmaker like Jones. If he can step in and be as good as he appears to be, that could take a lot of pressure off by having Cobb and him in the backfield along with the quicks of Edwards. Receivers will obviously need to step up more as well, but I feel like there was enough there to be more productive, but the QBs just gotta hit 'em when they're open. Big offseason indeed if that next step is to be taken.

 

[John Galt]

Who would be number 3? If Streveler is moved to WR they must be real high on the potential of McKinzy. I don't know who we can afford to move Streveler. I will trust this coaching staff on that.

The answer to Streveler should emerge after spring practice. If he is playing at a similar level to Nelson and Leidner, he stays at QB. If he's still a few notches below them, it's doubtful he overtakes them in the next two years, and his time may be better spent at WR. The other wildcard is McKinzy. If he is playing at a similar level to Streveler in the spring, that would be another reason to move Chris if they think he can help at WR. Just think, if he gets some reps at WR, he would have more experience at the position than Jones and Wolitarsky had going into last year...

 

[imthewalrus]

For a one game observation, it looked as though the coaches didn't show up. You can trash the young quarterbacks all you want, BUT: the Gophers held the lead going into the final two minutes of that game. IF you trash the offense, then trash the offensive coaches for not having the kids ready to go. Perhaps it was that special teams fatal error allowing a huge return on that final punt. Or, at times maybe the live by the blitz and die with the blitz situations helped contribute to some of the "one game observation" conlusions.

For that one game, the Gophers didn't look very well-coached. They didn't look like they were any where near ready to go.

Some of you people like to put it all on the young quarterbacks. Perhaps it's time to hold the coaches accountable for the state of readiness for the opponent, the way the game is played and the level of execution by their players at ALL positions.

I think I will put it on the backs of the highly paid professional coaching staff for just this "one game"...a game they had over a month to prepare for, rather than on the backs of a couple of kids just in their 2nd year out of high school.

And, since the Gophers had the lead going into the last couple of minutes of the game, I'd have to say that IF you want to assign the blame to the young student athletes...there was PLENTY of blame to go around with the team's effort in the final two minutes. Once again, that HAS to go on the backs of the coach and his staff for not having the team better prepared. But, of course, this was just a "...one game observation..."

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Wren, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The coaches had a scheme that resulted in there being open receivers, and the quarterbacks just flat out missed them. I don't think the coaches would have made things any better had they said "hey, when there is an open receiver, you should throw the ball to him, and put it in a place where he can catch it." It is a real shame that our quarterbacks are going into the offseason working on basic accuracy. That should have been nailed down long ago, and we should be focused on more of the nuances with the position.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

He was? By what standard?

Leidner had a higher completion percentage, a better TD/INT ratio, a higher QB rating, a higher yards per completion percentage, a higher yards per attempt percentage.

I'm not endorsing either guy, as either will have to make a lot of improvement if the Gophers are to contend for a division title.

But to say Nelson was the much better passer leaves one to wonder what games people were watching. Phillip missed way too many open receivers and missed on too many easy passes. If the Gophers want to contend, he will either have to really become more accurate or the Gophers will have to find a new QB. The status quo of 49% completions will not put Minnesota in any type of contention for the division. In Big Ten stats, Nelson was dead last in completion percentage, a full 8 percentage points behind the guy who was second-to-last and 17 percentage points behind the leader. He was also dead last in QB efficiency in the Big Ten this past season by a long way. In addition, one subtle thing about Nelson is that not only does he miss open receivers, he isn't very good at hitting guys in stride or putting the ball into a window that allows the pass catcher to continue the play. Just look at the highlights. Most of his most important passes of the season (TDs and 1st downs) show receivers having to stretch out, kneel down, or jump up to make catches. Re-watching the bowl game makes me believe (and hope) that he was nursing some sort of injury. He wasn't close on any passes. Easy passes were four inches off the ground or a foot behind guys and difficult throws were eight feet off target. That cannot happen if the Gophers want to contend for a division.

First off, I am also not endorsing anyone.

I wasn't getting into a debate about who was the better passer statistically. I realize that Leidner threw for two touchdowns in the bowl game which magically bumped his TD/INT ratio to 3:1. My point was that for most of the season, Leidner was essentially a RUNNING QB. He played decent in the bowl game and was the much better passer in that game.

However, it's not really apples to apples in comparing their stats. Most games, Leidner got 15+ snaps and threw the ball about 3-4 times a game. It isn't a rip on Leidner, it just was apparent that the staff viewed him as more of a running QB. For instance, Leidner had more rushing attempts than Nelson on the season (Nelson had 2.5 times as many passing attempts).

So my point was that the people who prefer Nelson do so because he is seen as more of a passer, not only by us but also by the staff (obviously). I saw that by watching the entire season.

Now, that doesn't mean that we were right in our opinion that Nelson was the better passer. We could certainly be wrong, but the opinion wasn't pulled out of thin air. It was based on how the staff used Leidner and the fact that Leidner had 1 game with 10+ attempts.

If leading up to the bowl game you didn't think Nelson was more of the passer and Leidner as more of the runner, I don't know what SEASON you watched.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Wren, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The coaches had a scheme that resulted in there being open receivers, and the quarterbacks just flat out missed them. I don't think the coaches would have made things any better had they said "hey, when there is an open receiver, you should throw the ball to him, and put it in a place where he can catch it." It is a real shame that our quarterbacks are going into the offseason working on basic accuracy. That should have been nailed down long ago, and we should be focused on more of the nuances with the position.

In college football, receivers are open on just about every single play. Our receivers don't get as open as often as other teams. Our QBs weren't good this season, but our receivers were awful.

 

[imthewalrus]

I'd say that the heat is on the Coach to either get his "go to quarterback" who KNOWS that the coach will stay with him and will not put him in too many running situations in which he will take hits...OR...the coach can go with two...or...three...or more quarterbacks, consider each of them to be a primary running back, send the stretcher out on the field to pick them up when they go down and not really have any primary quarterback. In that case, the coach can just let the fans take turns criticizing and taking cheap shots at the young student athlete quarterbacks and putting all the blame on their least favorite among the quarterbacks rather than to give the coach heat if things don't go too well for the offense.

People, it is up to the coach to either develop the quarterback to run the system the head coach runs effectively and efficiently, put playmakers around the quarterback and the offensive line to protect the quarterback, buy the qb time and effectively run the ball, to change up the offensive system to be a system the players he DOES HAVE can run. OR, within one...two...or...three seasons bring in a quarterback who so far exceeds the quarterbacks he does have that anything he asks that qb to do will work!

So, it is obvious to me that ALL of the pressure here is on the back of Coach Kill and he will have to share that pressure with the coaching staff that he has had in place for all these years. Either Coach Kill will get enough Big Ten wins to distance himself from the too few brewball era wins or he will be replaced himself, just as brewster was replaced. And, then he will have to at least equal the record of Coach Mason during Mason's ten year tenure at the U. That would buy him much more time! But, eventually, he will have to surpass Coach Mason's record too. After all, Coach Mason was extended, bought out and fired after 10 seasons for not winning enough Big Ten games even though he won as many OR more games than a number of coaches in the past twenty five years or so.

The Coach will either have to work his returning quarterbacks into college quarterbacks that some of the fans on this board will approve of OR he will have to hurry up and bring in a quarterback who will live up to the lofty expectations of the GOPHERHOLE quarterback critic's club. Either way, Coach Kill needs to get his butt in gear and get cranking on this quarterback controversy that he has helped spawn here on GOPHERHOLE... And, make no mistake, there is more pressure on him than on any of the young student athlete quarterback contestants.

 

[imthewalrus]

Wren, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The coaches had a scheme that resulted in there being open receivers, and the quarterbacks just flat out missed them. I don't think the coaches would have made things any better had they said "hey, when there is an open receiver, you should throw the ball to him, and put it in a place where he can catch it." It is a real shame that our quarterbacks are going into the offseason working on basic accuracy. That should have been nailed down long ago, and we should be focused on more of the nuances with the position.

So, I guess you are saying that our coaches can't develop quarterbacks? They have been here 3 seasons now. Complain about the coaches...not the kids they hand the ball to. Coaches have many more options than the student atheltes do.

 

[MNVCGUY]

So, I guess you are saying that our coaches can't develop quarterbacks? They have been here 3 seasons now. Complain about the coaches...not the kids they hand the ball to. Coaches have many more options than the student atheltes do.

You keep acting like it is all on one side or the others. The coaches are responsible for developing the players but at some point it is up to the player to execute the offense. Far be it from me to defend the coaching staff but there is only so much a staff can do, at some point it gets handed off to the student athletes to make the plays. There is plenty of criticism that can be sent at the staff and the players for the problems on offense but stop acting like 100% of the blame is on the coaches and the QB's are above any sort of criticism for the way they executed on the field. This isn't high school or youth football, it is ok to have high expectations for the players on the division one level and to point out when they are not quite performing up to expectations.

 

[e.bigelow]

First off, I am also not endorsing anyone.

I wasn't getting into a debate about who was the better passer statistically. I realize that Leidner threw for two touchdowns in the bowl game which magically bumped his TD/INT ratio to 3:1. My point was that for most of the season, Leidner was essentially a RUNNING QB. He played decent in the bowl game and was the much better passer in that game.

However, it's not really apples to apples in comparing their stats. Most games, Leidner got 15+ snaps and threw the ball about 3-4 times a game. It isn't a rip on Leidner, it just was apparent that the staff viewed him as more of a running QB. For instance, Leidner had more rushing attempts than Nelson on the season (Nelson had 2.5 times as many passing attempts).

So my point was that the people who prefer Nelson do so because he is seen as more of a passer, not only by us but also by the staff (obviously). I saw that by watching the entire season.

Now, that doesn't mean that we were right in our opinion that Nelson was the better passer. We could certainly be wrong, but the opinion wasn't pulled out of thin air. It was based on how the staff used Leidner and the fact that Leidner had 1 game with 10+ attempts.

If leading up to the bowl game you didn't think Nelson was more of the passer and Leidner as more of the runner, I don't know what SEASON you watched.

Thank you, Bob. I agree with everything you put in this post! Well done, sir!

 

[gopherdudepart2]

The D-head SEC officials did us no favor in the game.

I beleive Nelson was not completely healthy from the concussion(nothing has been said about this from the coaches) but even if he was fine int he head he missed valuable practice time while nursing the cobwebs.
so head not completely clear and lack of practice is what i think we saw in Nelson in Texas.
Mitch looked better but as people stated he needs improvment and will get it.
it will be very important to have both of these guys better and ready to go at any time.

I also believe that the OL will be better next year as well and that will help the QB play.

Officials in the bowl game were going through the motions. That play where the Syracuse D-lineman was offsides and spiked Nelson in to the turf after the whistle had clearly blown and everyone had stopped playing even Nelson gave up on the play had a huge impact on that football game. That should have been a 15 yard penalty and possibly a game misconduct or another penalty a taunt as he put his helmet in to his face also and was jawing, mouthing off the Syracuse guy. I don't endorse either guy at QB as I like them both and see them kind of equally right now, talented kids that are still a Sophmore and a redshirt Freshman. Both kids have things to work on, they know that and I think they don't even need us to tell them that, all they have to do is watch the film and they will know. That said improved play by the wide receivers and O-line should help the whole offense and they should have more options for play calling and tweaks this offseason.

Nelson could get nothing on his throws after that personal foul occurred so you could tell something was up even if Nelson tried to tough it out. I will give him the benefit of the doubt as I think he was clearly injured on the rogue play.
One thing I can tell about Nelson and I'm not saying Leidner isn't this is he is a tough SOB like A Weber, the guy tries to play through injury, pain and getting creamed on plays like that personal foul in the bowl game. You could tell we missed the experience in the O-line from the injured guys being out, and Syracuse was getting an inordinate amount of pressure on the left tackle and from up the middle and the right guard position. They were not bringing exotic blitzes or anything the guy's hadn't seen before so not sure why the QB's were getting hit so much that game but it seemed like line communication was out of whack and the left tackle was blocking down expecting the back to chip and nobody would block the outside wide 9 guy. Like others have said Leidner needs to protect the football when he is in to many turnovers and get a better clock, some of the sacks were 11, 12 seconds and he still had the ball in his hands without making a decision, so some of those sacks he has to take credit for. The kid runs fearlessly though and likes to give a blow and knock people over, he is tough but needs to learn not to take unecessary blows and protect himslef a little more to stay healthy.
We need better QB play and more consistency next year and I expect we will get it, but we also need more consistency out of the WR group and O-line. Next year we should have our most experienced O-line under coach Kill and a lot of competition so that group I expect to improve and possibly even excel. The play in the bowl game wasn't near the levels we had seen the previous 2 to 4 games and the Gophers lead in the final minutes and were a pass slipping through a wideouts (vision shielded arms) Leidner could not have made a better throw on that particular route, the damn thing dropped in there like a needle. Quarterbacks will be fine as will the whole team, competition this spring is going to bring out the best in everyone. Gophers have a talented bunch comming back next year, the schedule is tougher, good thing the players are improving a lot. Our team speed is starting to catch up and even exceed some of the Big 10 programs we are on par with and making us more competitive against the upper echelon of the conference, that was the biggest holy cow moment last Spring practice and game and even this fall from game to game. The Gophers had some real team speed on both sides of the ball real noticable team speed even in drills. These coaches get and are ahead of the curve that team speed is going to help separate us from the pack and keep us in games we were not in, in past years.

That was one of the biggest negatives fom the Brewster years, having many guys slower than the opposition killed the team a lot especially at CB and linebacker.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

@e.bigelow, the intangibles include leadership qualities and calmness under fire. Just my opinion and is a subjective evaluation.

@bob, I don't think that's really what you meant. When Leidners stats are clearly better in every important way (except fumbles) it's ridiculous to say Nelson was clearly the better passer. Full-stop. How soon we forget the putrid non-con games and the Iowa debacle. I remember a few instances of bad sacks in that game as well, not sure why Leidner gets the "takes bad sacks" label.

@walrus, these are grown men, not high school kids were talking about. Maybe we should give them green paticipant ribbons? We do indeed criticize the coaching when it is warranted.