Generational views... ?

[Coolew01]

If an AD makes decisions partly based on fan reactions right after a loss or several losses, then I want a new AD.

Either way, I still don't see how what people post on a fan message board has any affect on a team's success.

Agree that a message board doesn't dictate an AD's decision, but it is probably a good barometer of what fans and donors as a whole are feeling

 

[Bad Gopher]

That '95-96 team got hosed. The 'Lunardi's' of the day all said we were a lock if we won at Illinois and might make it even with a loss. So we take care of business and nothing. Seth Greenburg's got nothing on that team. That would have meant 4 NCAA teams in a row for Clem and 5 out of 6 at the end of his run.

I blame Dick Bennett. First, his Wisconsin team came back and beat the Gophers in Madison after we had played a very strong first half, looking better than we had all season. That potential win would have put the Gophs over the top for sure. More importantly, he had bailed on Wisconsin-Green Bay in the prior off season. The Phoenix were still good enough to get an at-large bid, but without Bennett they failed to win their conference tournament. That stole one at-large bid from the tourney, and that might just have been the Gophers'.

One way or another, though, we did get robbed.

 

[jamiche]

Of course we can compete. That's what makes the crap that's in front of us now so maddening and the excuses that are being offered for it even more maddening.

The good news is that I've gotten the sense over the last couple of weeks that Woody is actually going to do something about it. Hope I'm right.

 

[BarnBurner]

We would? I personally would rather not have widespread academic fraud and crippling sanctions from which the school has yet to recover. Thanks, though.



False equivalency. Also, no one has said "no expectations" either.

Your stance of history as the basis for expectations is all anyone needs to know. Low, tempered - those words help?

 

[LesBolstad]

Evidently they also got tired of your smug, verbose posts. And, by the way, you're not informative or enlightening. You're so wrapped up in presenting your "facts" backing your position that you really don't grasp why a lot of long time, astute fans are so upset and concerned. Really am tired of some arrogant twit telling me over and over what Gopher basketball has been like with his numbers when he has no idea of how exciting and fun it actually was and the following it had around the state. I don't expect championships. I do expect to be a factor in the conference every so often. I do expect seeing mostly well played games; if we lose one of those, I'm upset, but I can move on and look forward to the next one. But there have been so many stretches of awful basketball this year that you'd either have to be an idiot or Donna not to question what the hell is going on.

It takes a lot for me to question a coach, but I'm there. It's not just the prospect of being a bubble team again. Hell, right now I'd take last team in from the Big 10. It's all the other factors . A chance to truly excite the students and state about Gopher basketball has been squandered. The best basketball class in a long time is sitting out there and what's going on can't help our chances with them. After several years of bad luck, Tubby has had his team, but so far it's been a disappointing one.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[howieramone]

Agree that a message board doesn't dictate an AD's decision, but it is probably a good barometer of what fans and donors as a whole are feeling

Most fans and donors will not relate to the lunatic fringe, high school kids, and lemmings who only post here after a loss.

 

[Dr.Don]

Most fans and donors will not relate to the lunatic fringe, high school kids, and lemmings who only post here after a loss.

Bingo, howie. Bitchers bitch loud. The reason they bitch loud is because no one is listening. And if any person truly believes that the GH meltdowns after a loss depicts the true fan base, that person is more delusional than #1Alphabet and his position that RPI rules the NCAA selections.

 

[dpodoll68]

Your stance of history as the basis for expectations is all anyone needs to know. Low, tempered - those words help?

History is the only thing one can base expectations on. There is literally nothing else on which one can base expectations.

P.S. The words "low" and "tempered" are not synonymous with "no". I'm surprised that I would have to explain this to a mental giant such as yourself.

 

[Mulligan]

Yes and no. We would cheerfully accept a rerun of the record from 1972 to 1999. That's not that long ago. The problem with NCAA tournament appearances was there were none/zero/zilch/nada from 1939 to 1972, which is a fairly long time ago.

Also only conference champion went to NCAA tournament during that whole time I believe. I was a student during the Hudson/Clark years and I know that was the case during those years when we couldn't get by Michigan with Cazzie Russell and Bill Buntin.

 

[#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat]

Dr Don --

When have I said that the RPI rules the Selection Committee?!

In fact, I post Sagarin and Ken Pom ratings, because many members of the selection committee have stated that they are not the biggest fans of the RPI poll and that they do take into consideration other rating systems, including the Sagarin and Ken-Pom rating systems.

And a statistical analysis over all the years the RPI has been used by the NCAA selection committee shows that the RPI is mostly used when figuring out who the last couple of teams to be let in are, and who the last couple of teams to be left out are.

It does not have as much sway as the AP and Coaches Polls and other factors have when it comes to seeding, for example.



But I post the RPI #s because they ARE ONE of the factors taken into consideration.

 

[#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat]

Mulligan and Les Bolstad.


Of course I am not enlightening in your opinion. You scroll past my posts, or you cover your eyes, plug your ears and yell loudly so that you don't have to let the truth in.



As for being smug and verbose?! lol Hey, I don't come here trolling for friends. AND, if I did, I surely wouldn't want people like you to be my friends, so I'm not too devastated that you don't like me, lol. In fact, I'm quite pleased to know that you two don't like me.



But lets see here, what are my MAJOR CRIMES????


I'm longwinded?! Yeah, that's who I am. I've admitted as much many times. Personally I would rather be longwinded and have some substance to my posts than to be good for some witty one liners with no substance.

I'm smug?! lol, why is that, because I post facts and stats and evidence to back up my opinions?! I think the person who thinks that they don't need facts or stats or evidence to back up their opinion is the far more smug person. Why is their opinion so much more valid than the next person's? I personally don't think my opinions are worth all that much, and hence why I feel it so important to back up any opinions I have, with hard evidence.


And why would you assume I have no idea of how fun or exciting it was to be a Gopher bb fan? Just because I also have a respect for facts and stats and evidence and the truth?!



I was down in New Orleans for the 1990 NCAA tourney games vs Syracuse and Georgia Tech. I vaguely remember Musselman's teams, and clearly remember the 1982 team. I met Randy Breuer and watched him play in high school. My high school bb team was the only team in Randy Breuer's Sr year of high school, to every have a lead on his Lakers team at halftime. I was at that State Title game, front row seats and watched my Lakers take on Breuers Lakers. My father has coached both womens and mens high school basketball and I grew up watching him coach those teams and every sport my high school ever supported. He was actually my Wrestling coach for one year, and my Golf coach for one year. He was a Gopher fan since they were winning Natl Titles in fb in the 40s, and I was raised up to be a Gopher fan from birth. My father went to a lot of Gopher fb games, including during their 1960 Natl Title winning season. He also played basketball in college, although by his own admission he was not that good, he was much better at football. He was friends with Lute Olsen back in the day and I've met him as well. So what I don't remember about the Musselman teams, my father has told me all about from his own memories. I was too young to remember all of the specifics, but what I do remember, is the general sense I got from watching those games as a young child. I full well remember my perceptions from that time period.

And I was old enough to remember my perceptions from the early 80s teams. I also remember my perceptions from the middle and late 80s. I was a die hard Gopher bb fan all through the rape scandal years, and I followed the Gophers closely during Clem's first two years as a Gopher coach. YES, during his FIRST TWO YEARS. So I was very invested in the Gopher bb team while they were LOSING. So I EARNED the right to be a proud Gopher fan when they started winning in 89 and 90. And when I had the opportunity to go to see them live in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8, I took that opportunity. So don't you think to claim that I don't know anything about how exciting it was to be a Gopher fan.


Then I lived out on the West Coast in the early 90s all the way through the 1997 season.

And I actually suffered a ton of negativity from all of those Pac-10 people because of my brazen support of the Gophers during 1997. I made a lot of money from all the Big Ten hating suckers out there who were fully convinced that the Big Ten was a joke and that the Gophers wouldn't make it out of the 1st round, and then out of the 2nd, and then out of the Sweet 16, and surely not out of the Elite 8. It was quite fashionable in 1997 to bash the Big Ten, so it was easy to make money off of the situation.


I moved back to Minnesota in March of 1998. That was when I first discovered internet discussion forums. And I spent a good deal of time during the 1998-99 bb season in one of those discussion forums defending the Big Ten and the Gophers from all of the fans across the country who thought the Big Ten, and ESPECIALLY The Gophers, were not very good at bb. Then the scandal hit, and what did I do?! I stayed on that discussion forum, and took a beating, every day, day after day, week after week. I know ALL about how people from outside of Minnesota feel about the Gophers and our glorious history.


So don't make claims that I don't know what its like when I know almost as well as anyone my age who didn't grow up in the Twin Cities or who didn't go to the U during one of those periods, knows how exciting it was. In fact, of all the people I grew up with, I believe that I was the most fervent Gopher fan of them all.

 

[BarnBurner]

History is the only thing one can base expectations on. There is literally nothing else on which one can base expectations.

P.S. The words "low" and "tempered" are not synonymous with "no". I'm surprised that I would have to explain this to a mental giant such as yourself.

In your world, low, no, tempered are all the same. That is the point. Ik now it is tough for you to understand.

You have no expectations or standards. That makes it easy on you.

Life without expectations and standards = the dpdoll perfect world.

 

[station19]

Hint

 

[dpodoll68]

In your world, low, no, tempered are all the same. That is the point. Ik now it is tough for you to understand.

You have no expectations or standards. That makes it easy on you.

Life without expectations and standards = the dpdoll perfect world.

That makes no sense at all, but whatever you say.

P.S. My wife wanted me to ask you when you're going to be done with my nuts. She likes to play with them, but hasn't been able to lately because your nose is always in the way.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

History is the only thing one can base expectations on. There is literally nothing else on which one can base expectations.

I would disagree with this. I think changed circumstances can lead to changed expectations not based on history. To illustrate with an extreme example, If we grabbed the top 3 recruits in the country each of the next three seasons, and none of them left early to go pro, I would expect us to have a better finish than either the Gophers or any of those 9 players have ever had in the NCAA tournament in their history.

 

[dpodoll68]

I would disagree with this. I think changed circumstances can lead to changed expectations not based on history. To illustrate with an extreme example, If we grabbed the top 3 recruits in the country each of the next three seasons, and none of them left early to go pro, I would expect us to have a better finish than either the Gophers or any of those 9 players have ever had in the NCAA tournament in their history.

How did those players get to be named the top 3 recruits in the country?

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

How did those players get to be named the top 3 recruits in the country?

Not by winning NCAA tournament games. They would have been named that by performance in high school. That is part of their personal history, so I guess you are right, that is based on history. But would you agree that we could form expectations for the University of Minnesota's basketball team in that scenario on something besides the Gophers' own history?

 

[dpodoll68]

I guess you are right, that is based on history.

Thank you. Again, it all goes back to history in one way or another. There is nothing else one can base it on.

But would you agree that we could form expectations for the University of Minnesota's basketball team in that scenario on something besides the Gophers' own history?

Absolutely, and I've said as much many times. I said before the season that the average U team would not make the postseason (based on history), and the average Tubby Smith-coached team would make the Sweet 16 or thereabouts (based on history), so by averaging them together, a reasonable expectation for the season would be a 1st- or 2nd-round loss. For some people, they wanted to believe that a Final Four run was all but a foregone conclusion, even though that feeling had no basis in history, and were mad at me at the time for daring to temper their unrealistic expectations. They are still mad at me because I was right all along. Expecting too much leads to nothing but disappointment, resentment, and anger. View this board for evidence.

 

[Blackhammer]

Jim Dutcher in the late 70s had one of the top recruiting classes in country with highly regarded Daryl Mitchell. Trent Tucker and company. Throughout his tenure he continued to do a pretty good job getting at least Big Ten quality recruits and he never cheated. Clem also got players here most without cheating at least until they got on campus. In the early 70s Mussleman got great talent here but that was while cheating. Monson under sanctions still got a few players especially Vince Greer who is better than anyone on this years team. Point being there are enough good basketball players out there that Tubby should be able to do better than some of these clowns that are on this team. The staff doesn't seeem to be able to evaluate players and project them at the college level. Or relate enough with players that do sign to keep them here.

 

[station19]

Jim Dutcher in the late 70s had one of the top recruiting classes in country with highly regarded Daryl Mitchell. Trent Tucker and company. Throughout his tenure he continued to do a pretty good job getting at least Big Ten quality recruits and he never cheated. Clem also got players here most without cheating at least until they got on campus. In the early 70s Mussleman got great talent here but that was while cheating. Monson under sanctions still got a few players especially Vince Greer who is better than anyone on this years team. Point being there are enough good basketball players out there that Tubby should be able to do better than some of these clowns that are on this team. The staff doesn't seeem to be able to evaluate players and project them at the college level. Or relate enough with players that do sign to keep them here.

#1 in the country.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Absolutely, and I've said as much many times. I said before the season that the average U team would not make the postseason (based on history), and the average Tubby Smith-coached team would make the Sweet 16 or thereabouts (based on history), so by averaging them together, a reasonable expectation for the season would be a 1st- or 2nd-round loss. For some people, they wanted to believe that a Final Four run was all but a foregone conclusion, even though that feeling had no basis in history, and were mad at me at the time for daring to temper their unrealistic expectations. They are still mad at me because I was right all along. Expecting too much leads to nothing but disappointment, resentment, and anger. View this board for evidence.

While I never thought a Final Four was a reasonable expectation for this year, I did expect to see a Sweet 16 run out of this team. I think I put less weight on institutional history than you do. I based my expectations on what I would expect out of a coach with a national championships (in his coaching history), a recruit as highly touted as Rodney Williams after four years under the tuttledge of said national championship coach (based on the history of 4 star top 100 recruits, a rating which as you made me point out, was based on his performance history), a player of Mbakwe's caliber (based on his past seasons), a player of Austin Hollins caliber (based on what I saw in his history of his defensive ability), and a player of Dre Hollins skill level (based on how good he looked at times despite being a freshman who didn't even get a whole season in).

 

[dpodoll68]

I did expect to see a Sweet 16 run out of this team.

I never expected it, but it is still a definite possibility - one we could never see if some on this board got their way. They want Tubby's blood on their hands.

 

[brucekaupa]

Yes and no. We would cheerfully accept a rerun of the record from 1972 to 1999. That's not that long ago. The problem with NCAA tournament appearances was there were none/zero/zilch/nada from 1939 to 1972, which is a fairly long time ago.

1939-1950: 8 teams invited to NCAA tournament
1951-1952: 16 teams
1953-1974: 22-25 teams

It's kinda comparing apples and oranges to compare pre-1974 to today.

I think a more fair comparison is Big Ten results. And when you look at that, you'll get even more mad about the last 12 years.

 

[scher215]

Thank you. Again, it all goes back to history in one way or another. There is nothing else one can base it on.

Absolutely, and I've said as much many times. I said before the season that the average U team would not make the postseason (based on history), and the average Tubby Smith-coached team would make the Sweet 16 or thereabouts (based on history), so by averaging them together, a reasonable expectation for the season would be a 1st- or 2nd-round loss. For some people, they wanted to believe that a Final Four run was all but a foregone conclusion, even though that feeling had no basis in history, and were mad at me at the time for daring to temper their unrealistic expectations. They are still mad at me because I was right all along. Expecting too much leads to nothing but disappointment, resentment, and anger. View this board for evidence.

I agree with your overall point that you average together MN success and Tubby success to get a general idea of expectations.

That said, I'd lean more towards expecting to win one NCAA tourney game yearly on average barring extreme injuries. Could obviously do the math and figure out the exact average between the two, but then maybe you have to weigh each factor differently? I don't know, more work than I'd want to so.

Using that assumption though, we are 0-3 so far "meeting expectations" so far. Would maybe give 0-2 as year 1 is a free pass. In order for it to average out though, I'd expect roughly 2-3 NCAA wins this year. A sweet 16 or elite 8 loss would bring Tubby back to par for me. Especially with a fairly talented team. Not as talented as many like to believe, but still pretty good.

Just to clarify, my NCAA tourney win per year doesn't need to actually be one win per year, but to average out to that.

 

[station19]

At the beginning of the season I saw 0 chance of a trip to the final four. I figured a 50/50 chance of a trip the the sweet 16.

As the season progressed and the chaps were playing well, my expectations began to rise. I am now back where I started the season, though the final conference record will be below my prediction.

None of these 'expectations'/predictions were based on history. They were based on my perception and judgement of the team and individual players.

Now when we begin to talk about whether the coach should be retained or not, I will factor in history.

 

[Ski U Mah Gopher]

1939-1950: 8 teams invited to NCAA tournament
1951-1952: 16 teams
1953-1974: 22-25 teams

It's kinda comparing apples and oranges to compare pre-1974 to today.

I think a more fair comparison is Big Ten results. And when you look at that, you'll get even more mad about the last 12 years.

In addition, until 1974, if you didn't win the Big Ten, you didn't have any postseason.

There are some years in the 1960's (the Hudson-Clark-Yeats years) where they have made the tournament over the independants that were invited. But the one team per conference rule kept them out, and they couldn't beat the Cazzie Russell led Michigan teams for the conference title. Big Ten didn't participate in the NIT.

 

[Bad Gopher]

At the beginning of the season I saw 0 chance of a trip to the final four. I figured a 50/50 chance of a trip the the sweet 16.

As the season progressed and the chaps were playing well, my expectations began to rise. I am now back where I started the season, though the final conference record will be below my prediction.

None of these 'expectations'/predictions were based on history. They were based on my perception and judgement of the team and individual players.

Now when we begin to talk about whether the coach should be retained or not, I will factor in history.

After what I saw in last season's NIT run, I thought a top-3 or 4 conference finish was a realistic hope and top-5 was a realistic expectation. Their play in the non-conference seemed to reinforce that. It was not fools gold; they were playing that well!

 

[dpodoll68]

None of these 'expectations'/predictions were based on history. They were based on my perception and judgement of the team and individual players.

And what did you base your judgement of the team and individual players on?

 

[station19]

1939-1950: 8 teams invited to NCAA tournament
1951-1952: 16 teams
1953-1974: 22-25 teams

It's kinda comparing apples and oranges to compare pre-1974 to today.

I think a more fair comparison is Big Ten results. And when you look at that, you'll get even more mad about the last 12 years.

Exactly, and that is why the 'more than any other xxxxx in our history' comments should cease and desist.

In addition, until 1974, if you didn't win the Big Ten, you didn't have any postseason.

There are some years in the 1960's (the Hudson-Clark-Yeats years) where they have made the tournament over the independants that were invited. But the one team per conference rule kept them out, and they couldn't beat the Cazzie Russell led Michigan teams for the conference title. Big Ten didn't participate in the NIT.

It pisses me off that people either discard or don't realize this. Those were some fabulous teams.

 

[savagerube]

1939-1950: 8 teams invited to NCAA tournament
1951-1952: 16 teams
1953-1974: 22-25 teams

It's kinda comparing apples and oranges to compare pre-1974 to today.

I think a more fair comparison is Big Ten results. And when you look at that, you'll get even more mad about the last 12 years.

If you run the numbers post-1974, The Gophers still rank 9th in the B1G in tournament appearances. Again, I agree completely with dpodoll on this topic. It's silly to set expectations when history and past performances are not recognized. Remember, when you bring up the fact that it was harder to make the tourney back 50-60 years ago, it was just as hard for other B1G teams to make it as well.