Frank Kaminsky is the best player in college basketball? They are kidding right?

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Otis said:
Dorky tall kid who can shoot is the best college baller in the land? I seriously doubt it. The NBA sure as hell doesn't think so and neither do I.
I can think of several players better than him.
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They're talking about the best player in "college basketball," not the best "NBA prospect." Evan Turner was player of the year in college and is just a serviceable starter with a small number of notable skills who plays for a lottery team in the NBA. Jimmer Fredette was also a player of the year and he's been darn close to a bust in the NBA.

Last time I checked Kaminsky had the highest PER in the country so there is certainly objective quantitative evidence that he is one of the best players in the country.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
I came of age during the early/mid '80s, which in my mind was the Golden Era of college basketball. During that time the best players in the nation were superstars like Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins, Ralph Sampson, Patrick Ewing, Akeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Chris Mullen, Wayman Tisdale, Isiah Thomas, Scott Skiles, among many others. And now we're talking about Frank Effing Kaminsky as the best player in college basketball?
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Oh, yeah, well here's two players of the year who sandwiched that era:

1977-78: Butch Lee, Marquette
1988-89: Danny Ferry, Duke

Yeah, it was a great era for college basketball. I was there too, but it's was over long ago.

The biggest difference between then and now is that all of those players on that list spent three or fours years playing college basketball. Very few, if any, of them would today.
 

cjbfbp said:
They're talking about the best player in "college basketball," not the best "NBA prospect." Evan Turner was player of the year in college and is just a serviceable starter with a small number of notable skills who plays for a lottery team in the NBA. Jimmer Fredette was also a player of the year and he's been darn close to a bust in the NBA. Last time I checked Kaminsky had the highest PER in the country so there is certainly objective quantitative evidence that he is one of the best players in the country.
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Both of those guys were also lottery picks. So the NBA did think they were good NBA prospects. Not entirely sure your point there?
 

justthefacts said:
I was curious about the Dekker / Kaminsky comparison (that another poster made as well) so I went to KenPom. Here are the KenPom stats where Kaminsky beat Dekker last year: ORtg, %Poss, %Shots, eFG%, TS%, OR%, DR%, ARate, TORate, Blk%, FD/40, FT%, 2pt %, 3pt %. Here are the stats where Dekker beat Kaminsky: %Min, Stl%. So I'm going to go ahead and decide that saying Dekker is better than Kaminsky is complete nonsense.

I will give you credit for being the only person in the thread to actually NAME a guy. Not that I'm saying Kaminsky is the #1 player in America, but I found that funny.
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Terrific post, Dekker is ok but Kaminsky is a game changer. For a big he can put the ball on the deck and move it which is why he will do just fine in the NBA.
 

I love it. We all know more than anyone else.
 


scher215 said:
Both of those guys were also lottery picks. So the NBA did think they were good NBA prospects. Not entirely sure your point there?
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I'm not sure what your point was either - probably just a lame attempt to pick at one of my post because of a more intelligent criticism I made about one of yours earlier.

My point was that one doesn't have to be a great pro prospect to deserve the college player of the year award (Turner and Fredette were deserving enough of their awards). In the case of Turner and Fredette, where they were drafted is now irrelevant because they have had sufficient time to establish that they weren't great pro prospects.
 


He's a carbon copy of BTN commentator Shaun Morris, except he can shoot the three. Bottom line.
He'll eventually will end up in Europe, or back in Madison.
 

cjbfbp said:
I'm not sure what your point was either - probably just a lame attempt to pick at one of my post because of a more intelligent criticism I made about one of yours earlier. My point was that one doesn't have to be a great pro prospect to deserve the college player of the year award (Turner and Fredette were deserving enough of their awards). In the case of Turner and Fredette, where they were drafted is now irrelevant because they have had sufficient time to establish that they weren't great pro prospects.
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Look up the definition of prospect, maybe that will help you out.

Here's a hint- it isn't something that is updated retroactively. Being a good prospect is a projection, the projection made doesn't change if it was wrong.

The NBA felt Turner and Jimmer were great prospects. That's a fact regardless of if they were right or not.

Jameer Nelson would be a much more similar comparison to Kaminsky as far as NBA outlook and winning player of the year.

Other than him though, since 1979 (and that's only because I didn't want to look anymore) every college player of the year has been the equivalent of an NBA lottery pick aka a good/great NBA prospect.
 




ruppertflywheel said:
He's a carbon copy of BTN commentator Shaun Morris, except he can shoot the three. Bottom line.
He'll eventually will end up in Europe, or back in Madison.
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He reminds me of a younger Pau Gasol of the Bulls.
 

ruppertflywheel said:
He's a carbon copy of BTN commentator Shaun Morris, except he can shoot the three. Bottom line.
He'll eventually will end up in Europe, or back in Madison.
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That's a possibility. But being the best player in college ball is different than being good at NBA ball. As of right now, I would probably take Frank the Tank over just about anyone else in college hoops if I were trying to build a winner. I know I would have swapped any player on our roster for him at the start of this season if I would have known how well he was going to play. It make me almost want to vomit, praising a Badger like this, but the kid is one of the best.
 

[SUP][/SUP]
scher215 said:
Both of those guys were also lottery picks. So the NBA did think they were good NBA prospects. Not entirely sure your point there?
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Are you stating Frank won't be a lottery pick?
 



G
cjbfbp said:
The biggest difference between then and now is that all of those players on that list spent three or fours years playing college basketball. Very few, if any, of them would today.
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Which is exactly what I wrote in my original post that you apparently didn't feel the need to include.

"I still love the game as much as ever, but Lord, the changes to the NBA draft rules have sapped the game of the elite talent who used to stay in college for 2-3 years and make college hoops such a great game to watch."

There is absolutely no denying that the quality of college basketball has been negatively impacted by the NBA, and Frank Kaminsky being considered as one of the elite players is Exhibit A.
 

Blitzkrieg said:
[SUP][/SUP] Are you stating Frank won't be a lottery pick?
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NBAdraft.net has him going 21st right now, draft express does have him going 12th, bleacher report 16th, ESPN seems to have him at the end of the lottery.

So while things can certainly change and he could very well be a lottery pick, but he isn't rated as highly as Okafor or Towns.

Personally I think one of those two are far more likely to win player of the year.
 

Otis said:
Name Names huh? Let's see, who would I pick before Frank if starting a team from scratch:

Cliff Alexander
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Think you are trying too hard here. The kid at Kansas or is there another Cliff Alexander? The kid who scored 32 points in last 9 games? The kid who is 1-5 from the field in his last 3 games? The kid who had 3 fouls in 11 minutes and 4 fouls in 10 minutes in his last 2 games? Starting from scratch with Cliff Alexander isn't starting with scratch.
 

scher215 said:
NBAdraft.net has him going 21st right now, draft express does have him going 12th, bleacher report 16th, ESPN seems to have him at the end of the lottery.

So while things can certainly change and he could very well be a lottery pick, but he isn't rated as highly as Okafor or Towns.

Personally I think one of those two are far more likely to win player of the year.
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You think Karl Anthony Towns might win POY? How about I give you $1000 if it's him and you give me $10 if it's Kaminsky. Towns isn't even POY on his own team. He's a better NBA prospect to be sure, but here are the stats each leads in:

- Kaminsky: Minutes, POssesions used, points per game, points per 40, Offensive Rating, FG PCT, FTM, FTA, 3pt FG%, Effective FG%, True Shooting %, rebounds per game, def reb %, assist / game, assist/turnover ratio, assist %, steals / game, steal %, turnover %, fouls / game, +/- avg, roland avg

- Towns: FT %, off reb %, blocks per game, block pct

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=karl-anthony-towns&p1=frank-kaminsky

Kaminsky leads Towns in almost all the counting stats AND in almost all the percentages. You know what. I'll give you $10000 if TOwns wins it and you give me $5 if Kaminsky does.

And at this point Kaminsky is leading Okafor too:

http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-col...tball?ex_cid=InsiderTwitter_GasawayPlayers2.0
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspo...nkings-kaminskys-postgame-okafors-regression/
http://kenpom.com/kpoy.php
http://www.si.com/college-basketbal...il-okafor-willie-cauley-stein-stanley-johnson
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...s-in-college-basketball-february-12/23302419/
 

justthefacts said:
You think Karl Anthony Towns might win POY? How about I give you $1000 if it's him and you give me $10 if it's Kaminsky. Towns isn't even POY on his own team. He's a better NBA prospect to be sure, but here are the stats each leads in:

- Kaminsky: Minutes, POssesions used, points per game, points per 40, Offensive Rating, FG PCT, FTM, FTA, 3pt FG%, Effective FG%, True Shooting %, rebounds per game, def reb %, assist / game, assist/turnover ratio, assist %, steals / game, steal %, turnover %, fouls / game, +/- avg, roland avg

- Towns: FT %, off reb %, blocks per game, block pct

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=karl-anthony-towns&p1=frank-kaminsky

Kaminsky leads Towns in almost all the counting stats AND in almost all the percentages. You know what. I'll give you $10000 if TOwns wins it and you give me $5.

And at this point Kaminsky is leading Okafor too:

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspo...nkings-kaminskys-postgame-okafors-regression/
http://kenpom.com/kpoy.php
http://www.si.com/college-basketbal...il-okafor-willie-cauley-stein-stanley-johnson
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...s-in-college-basketball-february-12/23302419/
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Solid closing argument.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
G

Which is exactly what I wrote in my original post that you apparently didn't feel the need to include.
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OK, I apologize for missing that. We agree on that fundamental point.

Very few of those players you mentioned would have been given serious player of the year consideration as freshmen although all of them definitely showed something in their freshman year. Perhaps Andrew Wiggins would have been an awesome college player by his junior year, but that's something we'll infrequently get to see these days.
 

He might have an NBA career that is on par with Brad Lohaus, but Kaminsky is the best college BB player in the country right now. Most centers are big dopey lunkheads with limited offensive moves. The fact that he can score from 22 feet out with consistency gives Wiscy a huge positional advantage.
 

Dunceswithwolves said:
Think you are trying too hard here. The kid at Kansas or is there another Cliff Alexander? The kid who scored 32 points in last 9 games? The kid who is 1-5 from the field in his last 3 games? The kid who had 3 fouls in 11 minutes and 4 fouls in 10 minutes in his last 2 games? Starting from scratch with Cliff Alexander isn't starting with scratch.
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Lol, Cliff laid a goose egg last night in there terrible loss to KSU. He did collect 4 rebounds and 4 fouls in 10 minutes of play. On the year Mr. Alexander is overwhelming opponents posting 7.1 ppg 5.3 rpg and .4 apg while Kaminsky is averaging 17.7 ppg 8.2 rpg and 2.5 apg. I understand one if a frosh and one is a senior but you made the mistake of saying that Cliff was better.
 

Kaminsky is the type of recruit that every program not named Kentucky, Kansas, Duke or North Carolina and maybe Arizona should dream about. A 4 year guy that goes from barely playing as a freshman to being a first team All American his senior year. Whether he is considered the best player in college basketball is really irrelevant and is purely opinion anyway. Most neutral observers put him in the top 2, but again, it is really irrelevant.

What type of NBA career he has and where he gets drafted is really irrelevant as well. He will go somewhere in the 1st round and has a shot to prove he can play in the league, just like Jon Leuer has proven. Whether he is successful or not has nothing to do with how good of a college player he is.

Most programs are not going to bring in 5 star talent each year as their method of maintaining success. Absent that, what is the plan? I get most everyone hates Ryan on this board, which is fine, but the bottom line is he had a plan on how to build and maintain a program and he has been incredibly successful implementing and sustaining it.

I get the impression Pitino has a plan as well. But building a program the right way takes time. He is also going to need some big time improvement from the young guys on the roster. His success will be determined by whether he can get that type of improvement out of guys. I think he has a boss that will give him that time. If you want to see an example of how not to build a program, there are countless examples out there. I don't get that impression from Pitino. I hope Coffey goes to the U, if he does not want to play at home, which top Twin Cities guy will ever want to?
 

GVBadger said:
Kaminsky is the type of recruit that every program not named Kentucky, Kansas, Duke or North Carolina and maybe Arizona should dream about. A 4 year guy that goes from barely playing as a freshman to being a first team All American his senior year. Whether he is considered the best player in college basketball is really irrelevant and is purely opinion anyway. Most neutral observers put him in the top 2, but again, it is really irrelevant. What type of NBA career he has and where he gets drafted is really irrelevant as well. He will go somewhere in the 1st round and has a shot to prove he can play in the league, just like Jon Leuer has proven. Whether he is successful or not has nothing to do with how good of a college player he is. Most programs are not going to bring in 5 star talent each year as their method of maintaining success. Absent that, what is the plan? I get most everyone hates Ryan on this board, which is fine, but the bottom line is he had a plan on how to build and maintain a program and he has been incredibly successful implementing and sustaining it. I get the impression Pitino has a plan as well. But building a program the right way takes time. He is also going to need some big time improvement from the young guys on the roster. His success will be determined by whether he can get that type of improvement out of guys. I think he has a boss that will give him that time. If you want to see an example of how not to build a program, there are countless examples out there. I don't get that impression from Pitino. I hope Coffey goes to the U, if he does not want to play at home, which top Twin Cities guy will ever want to?
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If I've insinuated Kaminsky is not a good college player, I apologize. Kaminsky is fantastic and will likely have a good NBA career too.

My argument is while all the above is true, Jahlil Okafor will win player of the year.
 

Sorry, but Lurch ( A.K.A. Kaminsky ) will not get away with the little cutesy spin moves in the NBA.
He can shoot the college three, but the NBA three is out of his range. If he does make it, it will be a serviceable reserve that gets about 10-15 minutes a game. The athletic big in the NBA will eat him alive. Every team in the NBA has a center who has some or all of his abilities. And here's the thing about Kaminsky that Badger fans don't get. It took him 4-5 years to get at this level. ( don't know if he took a RS or not ) He's not going to get any better.
 

GVBadger said:
Whether he is considered the best player in college basketball is really irrelevant and is purely opinion anyway.
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Not entirely true. Last time I checked he had he highest player efficiency rating in the nation and he has compiled that while playing heavy minutes in a schedule of good competition. So perhaps the most generally accepted (although certainly not perfect) composite measure of player performance rates him as the best. If this were just a matter of people's opinions, I doubt he would be the leading candidate.
 

scher215 said:
If I've insinuated Kaminsky is not a good college player, I apologize. Kaminsky is fantastic and will likely have a good NBA career too.

My argument is while all the above is true, Jahlil Okafor will win player of the year.
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So if the T-Wolves get lucky in the lottery(shortly after hell freezes over), would they pick Okafor, and if so, would Tyus transfer to MN to be together with his pal?:rolleyes:
 

station19 said:
So if the T-Wolves get lucky in the lottery(shortly after hell freezes over), would they pick Okafor, and if so, would Tyus transfer to MN to be together with his pal?:rolleyes:
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Per my sources, yes. He will. Flip Saunders will then trade Okafor to the Bucks and Tyus will transfer to the Badgers. Flip hates the Gophers. You heard it here first.
 

cjbfbp said:
Not entirely true. Last time I checked he had he highest player efficiency rating in the nation and he has compiled that while playing heavy minutes in a schedule of good competition. So perhaps the most generally accepted (although certainly not perfect) composite measure of player performance rates him as the best. If this were just a matter of people's opinions, I doubt he would be the leading candidate.
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While I don't believe PER is the end all, be all discussion on who the better player is Kaminsky is leading it by a wide margin and that certainly helps his cause.

Top 10- Kaminsky (WIS), Tuttle (UNI), Wiltjer (GONZ), Marks (BSU), Okafor (DUKE), Colson (ND), Portis (ARK), Green (RAD), Towns (UK), and Gill (UVA).
 

From last night:

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Okafor is known for being a mediocre defender at best:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2015/2/6/7991979/jahlil-okafor-duke-2015-nba-draft
http://upsidemotor.com/2015/02/25/n...s-flawed-star-bust-knicks-timberwolves-76ers/
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/102973/advanced-stats-favor-kaminsky-over-okafor

"The one major difference when comparing the two players, though, is their contributions on defense. Despite his size, Okafor is 14th in the ACC in defensive rebound percentage and has struggled to keep opponents out of the paint (Duke allowed 62 paint point Wednesday against UNC). Kaminsky leads the Big Ten in defensive rebound percentage and is rebounding almost 27 percent of his opponents’ missed shots.

Basketball Reference’s defensive rating is an estimate of the points a player allows per 100 possessions that he faces while on the court. It is based on his rebounds, blocks, steals, turnovers and forced misses. Based on this all-encompassing measure, Kaminsky is a top-35 defender and Okafor ranks outside of the top 300 (minimum of 20 minutes per game and 20 games played). "
 


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