Fleck's Good Wins at Minnesota

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Roland Brooks said:
Oregon, Michigan, Ohio st and Penn St are somebody… beat one of those teams and you have a chance to take the next step and be relevant.. What is our record against those teams? 1-7 vs Iowa? Beat Iowa at least we would be champs of the 5 state area.. what is the best non conference win? Not bowl win!

Fleck has done a good job time to be better and be relevant… They have had chances to step up and pissed it away.. if I could get credit for a win for every time I have heard… “ This one is on me “… I would have 10 wins..
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Soooooo beating #5 Penn State isn't relevant?
 


mggoph said:
And sub .500 seasons for most of the 80's and 90's.

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Minnesota Golden Gophers College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

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And yet we have a respectable list of upsets and great wins starting in the last 80's and throughout the '90s that helped to get the program to where it is today.

The history of Gopher football post 1961 is rough, I agree, but we turned a corner with the hiring of Holtz, no matter how much people still hate him for leaving. Beginning in the '00s, we've built up and stabilized as a respectable football opponent in terms of results, with 63% of our regular seasons being at .500 or better. Put another way, the kids coming to college now in the '20s (born in the '00s) have known more winning than losing seasons from the Gophers in their lifetime. Something that hasn't been true since a kid born in the '40s.

The percentage of winning seasons by decade from the '60s on
'60s - 70% Warmath
'70s - 40% Warmath, Salem
'80s - 40% Salem, Holtz, and Gutekunst
'90s - 10% Gutey, Wacker, and Mason
'00s - 80% Mason, and the first few years of Brewster
'10s - 50% Brewster/Horton, Kill/Claeys, Claeys and Fleck
'20s (so far) - 60% Fleck

We turned the corner under Holtz and Gutey, took a massive step back with Wacker, then recovered and stabilized with Mason. Even though Maturi attempted to sabotage the program with the Brewster hire, Kill/Claeys and Claeys were able to reverse the academic decline under Brewster, which Fleck has driven even further. Football-wise, we are very stable at the Mason/Kill/Claeys/Fleck level.

Can we take the next step?

Percentage of winning seasons since Salem:
Holtz 50% - 2 seasons
Gutekunst: 67% - 6 seasons
Wacker: 0% - 5 seasons
Mason: 70% - 10 seasons
Brewster: 50% - 4 seasons
Kill/Claeys: 60% - 5 seasons
Claeys: 100% - 1 season
Fleck: 63% including 2020, 71% without
 
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caliGopher said:
And yet we have a respectable list of upsets and great wins starting in the last 80's and throughout the '90s that helped to get the program to where it is today.

The history of Gopher football post 1961 is rough, I agree, but we turned a corner with the hiring of Holtz, no matter how much people still hate him for leaving. Beginning in the '00s, we've built up and stabilized as a respectable football opponent in terms of results, with 63% of our regular seasons being at .500 or better. Put another way, the kids coming to college now in the '20s (born in the '00s) have known more winning than losing seasons from the Gophers in their lifetime. Something that hasn't been true since a kid born in the '40s.

The percentage of winning seasons by decade from the '60s on
'60s - 70% Warmath
'70s - 40% Warmath, Salem
'80s - 40% Salem, Holtz, and Gutekunst
'90s - 10% Gutey, Wacker, and Mason
'00s - 80% Mason, and the first few years of Brewster
'10s - 50% Brewster/Horton, Kill/Claeys, Claeys and Fleck
'20s (so far) - 60% Fleck

We turned the corner under Holtz and Gutey, took a massive step back with Wacker, then recovered and stabilized with Mason. Even though Maturi attempted to sabotage the program with the Brewster hire, Kill/Claeys and Claeys were able to reverse the academic decline under Brewster, which Fleck has driven even further. Football-wise, we are very stable at the Mason/Kill/Claeys/Fleck level.

Can we take the next step?

Percentage of winning seasons since Salem:
Holtz 50% - 2 seasons
Gutekunst: 67% - 6 seasons
Wacker: 0% - 5 seasons
Mason: 70% - 10 seasons
Brewster: 50% - 4 seasons
Kill/Claeys: 60% - 5 seasons
Claeys: 100% - 1 season
Fleck: 63% including 2020, 71% without
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Better way to measure success is # of conference seasons finishing over .500.

Fleck has gone over .500 in 4 of his 7 full seasons
Claeys did it during his interim year.
Kill did it one time during his time here
Brewster never finished over .500 in conference
Mason did it 2 times in 10 years
Wacker never finished over .500 in conference
Gutekunst did it 2 times in 6 years
Holtz got to .500 once but never finished over .500
Salem never did it.
Stoll did it 1 time during his time here.

So from Stoll to Claeys the U of M finished over .500 in the Big Ten a total of 7 times in 50+ years.

In 7 full seasons and one pandemic year Fleck has done it 4 times.

We have absolutely taken another step under Fleck from the stability that Mason/Kill provided during their time here. Still plenty of room for improvement and growth but we are in better shape under Fleck then we have been under any coach since Murray Warmath.
 



btowngopher said:
If we aren’t double digit favorites it’s hard for me to say we should have certainly won. I don’t know the numbers, but I doubt we’ve lost one of those every year. Bowling Green is the only one I know for sure off the top of my head.
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Given the conservative nature of PJ's offenses, its hard to imagine our team being double digit favorites ever.
 

gophernut1 said:
This thread is more depressing than the "bad losses" thread because it has been hi-jacked by people who think demanding us to be like Ohio State will actually get us there, or think it adds anything to the conversation. I get hoping for more but and PJ deserves some critique but that is what the bad losses thread is for. This thread should be about what good has happened and what may be possible.

Programs are built and PJ is building a program that for decades was irrelevant. We are on the border of being a yearly top 25 team. We would be considered this already if we had previous historic success like Nebraska, Iowa or Wisconsin. Overall PJ beats the teams he should, if we are within a six point thread we typically win (except against Iowa) and we are competitive against the top national teams. PJ has put us in a spot where we can realistic see ourselves in the playoffs with a few breakout players in any given year.
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PF has been here since 2017. Where is the evidence that the program is still be built going into season 9? I would argue that the program is built and there isn't evidence of an upward trajectory anymore. The ceiling is 9 wins but probably the realistic expectation each year is 7 or 8 wins with 5 being in conference. The recruiting has improved -we're not competing with MAC schools any more - but still is bottom 1/3 to 1/4 of the conference. PJ does punch above his weight finishing higher than the recruiting rankings would suggest, but we aren't within sniffing distance of the CFP. The landscape is shifting. Maybe PJ will prove to be adept at managing the new pay for play environment but if its a continuation of the pre-NIL and NIL era, then we'll continue on the same plateau. And maybe that's as good as it gets for us.
 

Roland Brooks said:
Yep. Time to beat someone and be relevant outside the 5 state area.. It’s ok to raise expectations.. PJ has been good time to be better.. apparently the Gophers have had talent as you look at guys making NFL rosters or getting invited to camp.. we keep hearing about the recruiting.. Let’s beat somebody and be relevant .. bored with NIT bowl games…which IMO it’s a good sign to be bored.. the non conference schedule is trash usually so let’s beat someone relevant in conference..
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We've actually played Power 4/5 teams more often than not in the last 30 years. Here's our non-conference opponents in the AQ/P5/P4 since 1995.
  • 1995 - lost to Syracuse, finished 9-3, ranked No. 16/19. Minnesota finished 3-8.
  • 1996 - Defeated No. 23 Syracuse, finished as 9-3 Big East Champion, ranked No. 19/21. Minnesota finished 4-7
  • 1997 - Defeated Iowa State, finished 1-10. Minnesota finished 3-9
  • 2000 - Defeated Baylor, finished 2-9. Minnesota finished 6-6
  • 2006 - Lost to No. 22 Cal, finished year as 10-3 PAC 10 Champion, ranked No. 14/14. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2009 - Defeated Syracuse, finished 4-8. Minnesota finished 6-7.
  • 2009 - Lost to No. 8 Cal, finished year 8-5
  • 2010 - Lost to USC, finished year 8-5. Minnesota finished 3-9
  • 2011 - Lost to USC, finished year 10-2, ranked No. 6. Minnesota finished 3-9
  • 2012 - Defeated Syracuse, finished year as 8-5 Big East Champion. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2014 - Lost to TCU, finished year as 12-1 BIG 12 Champion, ranked No. 3/3. Minnesota finished 8-5
  • 2015 - Lost to No. 2 TCU, finished 11-2, ranked No. 7/7. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2016 - Defeated Oregon State, finished 4-8. Minnesota finished 9-4
  • 2017 - Defeated Oregon State, finished 1-11. Minnesota finished 5-7
  • 2021 - Defeated Colorado, finished 4-8. Minnesota finished 9-4
  • 2022 - Defeated Colorado, finished 1-11. Minnesota finished 9-4
  • 2023 - Lost to No. 20 North Carolina, finished 8-5. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2024 - Lost to North Carolina, finished 6-7. Minnesota finished 8-5
That's 18 AQ/P5/P4 opponents and the Gophers have a 9-9 record against them.

Also, the Gophers played two Group of 5 opponents that ended the year ranked.
  • 2001 - Lost to Toledo, finished year as 10-2 MAC Champion, ranked No. 22/23. Minnesota finished 4-7
  • 2018 - Defeated Fresno State, finished as 12-2 Mountain West Champion, ranked No. 18/18. Minnesota finished 7-6
And for reference here are the bowl opponents, which only featured two Group of 5 Teams.
  • 1999 - Lost to Oregon in the Sun Bowl. Oregon finished 9-3, ranked No. 18/19. Minnesota finished 8-4, ranked No. 17/18
  • 2000 - Lost to NC State in the Micron Bowl. NC State finished 8-4. Minnesota finished 6-6
  • 2002 - Defeated Arkansas in the Music City Bowl. Arkansas finished as 9-5 SEC West Champion. Minnesota finished 8-5
  • 2003 - Defeated Oregon in the Sun Bowl. Oregon finished 8-5. Minnesota finished 10-3, ranked No. 17/20
  • 2004 - Defeated Alabama in the Music City Bowl. Alabama finished 6-6. Minnesota finished 7-5
  • 2005 - Lost to Virginia in the Music City Bowl. Virginia finished 7-5. Minnesota finished 7-5
  • 2006 - Lost to Texas Tech in the Insight Bowl. Texas Tech finished 8-5. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2007 - Lost to Kansas in the Insight Bowl. Kansas finished 8-5. Minnesota finished 7-6
  • 2009 - Lost to Iowa State in the Insight Bowl. Iowa State finished 7-6. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2012 - Lost to Texas Tech in the Texas Bowl. Texas Tech finished 8-5. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2013 - Lost to Syracuse in the Texas Bowl. Syracuse finished 7-6. Minnesota finished 8-5
  • 2014 - Lost to No. 16 Missouri in the Citrus Bowl. Missouri finished as 11-3 SEC East Champion, ranked No. 11/14. Minnesota finished 8-5
  • 2015 - Defeated Central Michigan in the Motor City Bowl. Central Michigan finished 7-6. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2016 - Defeated Washington State in the Holiday Bowl. Washington State finished 8-5. Minnesota finished 9-4
  • 2018 - Defeated Georgia Tech in the Motor City Bowl. Georgia tech finished 7-6. Minnesota finished 7-6
  • 2019 - Defeated No. 12 Auburn in the Outback Bowl. Auburn finished 9-4, ranked 14/14. Minnesota finished 11-2, Ranked 10/10
  • 2021 - Defeated West Virginia in the Rate Bowl. West Virginia finished 6-7. Minnesota finished 9-4
  • 2022 - Defeated Syracuse in the Pinstripe Bowl. Syracuse finished 7-6. Minnesota finished 9-4
  • 2023 - Defeated Bowling Green in the Motor City Bowl. Bowling Green finished 7-6. Minnesota finished 6-7
  • 2024 - Defeated Virginia Tech in the Duke’s Mayo Bowl. Virginia Tech finished 6-7. Minnesota finished 8-5
 
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MNVCGUY said:
Better way to measure success is # of conference seasons finishing over .500.

Fleck has gone over .500 in 4 of his 7 full seasons
Claeys did it during his interim year.
Kill did it one time during his time here
Brewster never finished over .500 in conference
Mason did it 2 times in 10 years
Wacker never finished over .500 in conference
Gutekunst did it 2 times in 6 years
Holtz got to .500 once but never finished over .500
Salem never did it.
Stoll did it 1 time during his time here.

So from Stoll to Claeys the U of M finished over .500 in the Big Ten a total of 7 times in 50+ years.

In 7 full seasons and one pandemic year Fleck has done it 4 times.

We have absolutely taken another step under Fleck from the stability that Mason/Kill provided during their time here. Still plenty of room for improvement and growth but we are in better shape under Fleck then we have been under any coach since Murray Warmath.
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There are three kinds of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics - Mark Twain.

This post aims to highlight that you are not comparing apples to apples when evaluating Fleck's conference record in comparison to previous coaches, without taking anything away from Fleck's accomplishments.

There have been numerous changes in college football during Fleck's tenure. The most significant impact on any comparison like this is that Fleck has played more B1G games per season (9) than all previous coaches (8), except Claeys, who had 9 games as well in his one full season.

Additionally, not all schedules are created equally. When you look at the number of ranked opponents per season, Fleck averages 2.375, the lowest of all of the coaches since Holtz. Mason played the most ranked opponents per season at 3.2. Thus Fleck played on average 2 more games against non-ranked opponents (1.825) than Mason did in conference. All of this said, Fleck's winning percentage against ranked opponents is the highest at 26% which can't be overlooked.

Furthermore, the conference had divisions for only the Kill, Claeys, and the first 7 years of the Fleck tenure. Kill coached in the Legends Division with Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Nebraska and Northwestern for three years (with 3 of those teams in the top 25 in 2011 and 2012, and the number 3 team in the country in 2013) and two years in the West (which was stronger early on that it was in the later part of its existence, when it was considered teh weakest division in all of the P5.

Finally, the situations coaches inherited are very different, which has an impact on results in the first few years of the program.

For example, Gutekunst took over from Holtz after two years. The team had won 7 conf. games the two years before Gutey took over, and was 6-5 (4-4) the year before, making a bowl game in a year there were 18 bowl games.

Mason took over from Wacker, who had won a total of 8 B1G games over 5 years and finished with one B1G win per year in the three years before Mason was hired.

Brewster took over from Mason who won 7 conf. games in the two years before he took over and had been to five consecutive bowl games (28 bowl games in the first 4 years, 32 in the last year).

Kill took over from Brewster/Horton who won 5 B1G games in the two years prior, but had signficant issues with grades and lack of discipline on the team.

Claeys was a part of the program that he took over, similar to Gutekunst. The transition was unusual, but there was continuity in the program and coaching staff that Gutey didn't have.

Fleck took over a team that had won seven conference games in the previous two years, including five the year before he assumed the role. He also inherited some roster issues due to injury (OL), recruiting failures (QB), and fallout from the SA scandal.

The numbers clearly demonstrate what we already knew: Wacker and Brewster performed below the other coaches in this conversation.

If you look below, Fleck is stronger in key areas but weaker in one critical area. Overall, I'd say that the program is in great shape and heading in the right direction. However, if you argue that this is a step forward, the step forward is that we are more consistently in a position to take the next step, not that we've actually taken it. Mason, Kill/Claeys, and Fleck are different variations of the same thing with different strengths, weaknesses, and upside.

Fleck's higher winning percentage against ranked teams is offset by the lower winning percentage against non-ranked teams. Fleck's weak point is the lower winning percentage against unranked opponents, winning 29 of 53 games, which is why I say the program may be in better shape than at any time in the past 40 years, but not in another tier above where Mason and Kill/Claeys got the program. I agree with the idea that there is more stability and more possibilities in the program today than in the past 40 years. However, in 8 seasons, we still haven't converted these possibilities into results. When we do that, then we've taken the next step. In total, the program has come a long way in 40 years, but as they say in marathon running, there are two halves to a marathon: the first 20 miles and the last 6. We need to finish this marathon. We can and we will, the question is when.

Notes:
  1. The Michigan ranking was omitted from the total of ranked games as it pulls Fleck's winning percentage against ranked teams down (unfairly in my opinion) when ranking was impossible to reflect any indication of the team's capabilities during that season.
  2. Because .500 seasons were a bigger reality pre-9 game conference season, I've included .500 seasons vs. only winning conference records since the results of winning records only are included in MNVCGUY's post above, and it provides some additional perspective for coaches that were making progress as the program rose from the ashes.
  3. Bolded numbers indicate the best mark in those numbers.

Gutey
B1G Games per season: 48
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents: 15
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 2.5
% of games against B1G ranked opponents: 31%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 20%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 33
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 82%
.500+ Seasons: 3

Wacker
B1G Games: 40
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents: 13
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 2.6
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 33%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 0%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 69%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents:
.500+ Seasons: 0

Mason
B1G Games: 80
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents: 32
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 3.2
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 40%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 9%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 60%
.500+ Seasons: 4

Brewster
B1G Games:
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents:
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season:
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents:
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents:
% of games against B1G unranked opponents:
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents:
.500 Seasons:

Kill
B1G Games: 34 (1 partial season)
B1G Games per season: 8 (he only coached 3 B1G games in his final season.
B1G ranked opponents: 13
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 3 (only 1 of 3 games in his final partional season)
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 38%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 15%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 62%
.500+ Seasons: 2

Claeys
B1G Games: 14 (1 partial season)
B1G Games per season: 9 (he coached 5 B1G games in the partial season)
B1G ranked opponents: 5
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 8.5 (including the season he split with Kill).
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 36%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 0%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 64%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 75%
.500 Seasons: 1

Fleck
B1G Games: 72
B1G Games per season: 9
B1G ranked opponents: 19
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 2.375
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 26%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 26%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 74%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 55%
+.500 Seasons: 4
 

The Brewster years in Gopher football = the Biden years for America.

(Laugh a little people. You can hate Trump all you want as he is a narcissist, but at least he gets stuff done. Biden was Brewster. Completely the wrong person to be in charge.)
 

Texan Gopher said:
The Brewster years in Gopher football = the Biden years for America.

(Laugh a little people. You can hate Trump all you want as he is a narcissist, but at least he gets stuff done. Biden was Brewster. Completely the wrong person to be in charge.)
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It's important to look closely at the "stuff" that's getting done and the long term results of that "stuff". It's all in what you prioritize in life. And Brewster seems more Trump then Biden.
 

Texan Gopher said:
The Brewster years in Gopher football = the Biden years for America.

(Laugh a little people. You can hate Trump all you want as he is a narcissist, but at least he gets stuff done. Biden was Brewster. Completely the wrong person to be in charge.)
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Keep the political stuff off the football board.
 



caliGopher said:
There are three kinds of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics - Mark Twain.

This post aims to highlight that you are not comparing apples to apples when evaluating Fleck's conference record in comparison to previous coaches, without taking anything away from Fleck's accomplishments.

There have been numerous changes in college football during Fleck's tenure. The most significant impact on any comparison like this is that Fleck has played more B1G games per season (9) than all previous coaches (8), except Claeys, who had 9 games as well in his one full season.

Additionally, not all schedules are created equally. When you look at the number of ranked opponents per season, Fleck averages 2.375, the lowest of all of the coaches since Holtz. Mason played the most ranked opponents per season at 3.2. Thus Fleck played on average 2 more games against non-ranked opponents (1.825) than Mason did in conference. All of this said, Fleck's winning percentage against ranked opponents is the highest at 26% which can't be overlooked.

Furthermore, the conference had divisions for only the Kill, Claeys, and the first 7 years of the Fleck tenure. Kill coached in the Legends Division with Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Nebraska and Northwestern for three years (with 3 of those teams in the top 25 in 2011 and 2012, and the number 3 team in the country in 2013) and two years in the West (which was stronger early on that it was in the later part of its existence, when it was considered teh weakest division in all of the P5.

Finally, the situations coaches inherited are very different, which has an impact on results in the first few years of the program.

For example, Gutekunst took over from Holtz after two years. The team had won 7 conf. games the two years before Gutey took over, and was 6-5 (4-4) the year before, making a bowl game in a year there were 18 bowl games.

Mason took over from Wacker, who had won a total of 8 B1G games over 5 years and finished with one B1G win per year in the three years before Mason was hired.

Brewster took over from Mason who won 7 conf. games in the two years before he took over and had been to five consecutive bowl games (28 bowl games in the first 4 years, 32 in the last year).

Kill took over from Brewster/Horton who won 5 B1G games in the two years prior, but had signficant issues with grades and lack of discipline on the team.

Claeys was a part of the program that he took over, similar to Gutekunst. The transition was unusual, but there was continuity in the program and coaching staff that Gutey didn't have.

Fleck took over a team that had won seven conference games in the previous two years, including five the year before he assumed the role. He also inherited some roster issues due to injury (OL), recruiting failures (QB), and fallout from the SA scandal.

The numbers clearly demonstrate what we already knew: Wacker and Brewster performed below the other coaches in this conversation.

If you look below, Fleck is stronger in key areas but weaker in one critical area. Overall, I'd say that the program is in great shape and heading in the right direction. However, if you argue that this is a step forward, the step forward is that we are more consistently in a position to take the next step, not that we've actually taken it. Mason, Kill/Claeys, and Fleck are different variations of the same thing with different strengths, weaknesses, and upside.

Fleck's higher winning percentage against ranked teams is offset by the lower winning percentage against non-ranked teams. Fleck's weak point is the lower winning percentage against unranked opponents, winning 29 of 53 games, which is why I say the program may be in better shape than at any time in the past 40 years, but not in another tier above where Mason and Kill/Claeys got the program. I agree with the idea that there is more stability and more possibilities in the program today than in the past 40 years. However, in 8 seasons, we still haven't converted these possibilities into results. When we do that, then we've taken the next step. In total, the program has come a long way in 40 years, but as they say in marathon running, there are two halves to a marathon: the first 20 miles and the last 6. We need to finish this marathon. We can and we will, the question is when.

Notes:
  1. The Michigan ranking was omitted from the total of ranked games as it pulls Fleck's winning percentage against ranked teams down (unfairly in my opinion) when ranking was impossible to reflect any indication of the team's capabilities during that season.
  2. Because .500 seasons were a bigger reality pre-9 game conference season, I've included .500 seasons vs. only winning conference records since the results of winning records only are included in MNVCGUY's post above, and it provides some additional perspective for coaches that were making progress as the program rose from the ashes.
  3. Bolded numbers indicate the best mark in those numbers.

Gutey
B1G Games per season: 48
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents: 15
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 2.5
% of games against B1G ranked opponents: 31%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 20%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 33
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 82%
.500+ Seasons: 3

Wacker
B1G Games: 40
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents: 13
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 2.6
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 33%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 0%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 69%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents:
.500+ Seasons: 0

Mason
B1G Games: 80
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents: 32
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 3.2
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 40%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 9%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 60%
.500+ Seasons: 4

Brewster
B1G Games:
B1G Games per season: 8
B1G ranked opponents:
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season:
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents:
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents:
% of games against B1G unranked opponents:
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents:
.500 Seasons:

Kill
B1G Games: 34 (1 partial season)
B1G Games per season: 8 (he only coached 3 B1G games in his final season.
B1G ranked opponents: 13
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 3 (only 1 of 3 games in his final partional season)
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 38%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 15%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 62%
.500+ Seasons: 2

Claeys
B1G Games: 14 (1 partial season)
B1G Games per season: 9 (he coached 5 B1G games in the partial season)
B1G ranked opponents: 5
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 8.5 (including the season he split with Kill).
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 36%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 0%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 64%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 75%
.500 Seasons: 1

Fleck
B1G Games: 72
B1G Games per season: 9
B1G ranked opponents: 19
Average # of B1G ranked Opponents per season: 2.375
Percentage of games against B1G ranked opponents: 26%
Winning % against B1G ranked opponents: 26%
% of games against B1G unranked opponents: 74%
Winning % against B1G non-ranked opponents: 55%
+.500 Seasons: 4
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Personally I give the edge to Fleck, but I agree he, Mason, and Kill/Claeys were all similar. I think in this day and age with NIL and needing to win over new fans as many are "aging out", Fleck is the guy. He has made our program more visible. Add to that an AD that does little to no public speaking (and when he does, it's painful) to promote sports and it's even more critical to have a guy like Fleck.
 

Fleck has/is dealing with a few relatively different chapters/eras. The 2017-19 era, then covid year which doesn't even count in my book, then 2021-2023 and ramping up of NIL in recruiting, and now starting in 2024 is almost really a whole new thing with revenue sharing and the new Big Ten.

Not trying to make excuses or say he hasn't really been here this long. But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle
 

swede2 said:
PF has been here since 2017. Where is the evidence that the program is still be built going into season 9? I would argue that the program is built and there isn't evidence of an upward trajectory anymore. The ceiling is 9 wins but probably the realistic expectation each year is 7 or 8 wins with 5 being in conference. The recruiting has improved -we're not competing with MAC schools any more - but still is bottom 1/3 to 1/4 of the conference. PJ does punch above his weight finishing higher than the recruiting rankings would suggest, but we aren't within sniffing distance of the CFP. The landscape is shifting. Maybe PJ will prove to be adept at managing the new pay for play environment but if its a continuation of the pre-NIL and NIL era, then we'll continue on the same plateau. And maybe that's as good as it gets for us.
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Winning 10 out of 12 games is a huge deal. Say two easier nonconf "buy" games and one tougher P4 game .. so you either have to go 3-0 or 2-1 and then need 7-2 or 8-1 in conference.

I don't see how any Big Ten program at Minnesota's level can get up to that consistently, without a huge increase in rev share & third-party NIL, even then still takes skilled recruiting to get the players to commit to a program on the rise rather than a more "sure thing" program.

Not at all saying it can't be done ... just feels like a really difficult lift, when there is no such thing as a draft to spread talent around to different programs.
 



Was the Big 10 schedule easier or harder in Mason’s era? Playing in the Big 10 west would seem to be a easier path…soft non conference schedule soft Big 10 West schedule and soft NIT bowl games..
 

The Gophers are relevant to me as well as is the Twins front office at the trade deadline…
 

Fresno State 2019. I was at the game and they have rowdy fans but nice fans. Incredible ending with Winfield.
 

Roland Brooks said:
The Gophers are relevant to me as well as is the Twins front office at the trade deadline…
Click to expand...

Are the Gophers relevant to you?

The reason I ask is that some of your recent posts seem to imply that they haven't been good enough to be relevant — the exact word you used.

'Wasn't it nice to be relevant'?

That sounds like the relevance is strictly past tense.

Roland Brooks said:
Gre

Awesome!
Click to expand...

Yes. It is for me. I can't wait for the season to start.
 

Roland Brooks said:
Was the Big 10 schedule easier or harder in Mason’s era? Playing in the Big 10 west would seem to be a easier path…soft non conference schedule soft Big 10 West schedule and soft NIT bowl games..
Click to expand...

Check it out and give us a report. You may be surprised.
 

RememberMurray said:
Are the Gophers relevant to you?

The reason I ask is that some of your recent posts seem to imply that they haven't been good enough to be relevant — the exact word you used.

'Wasn't it nice to be relevant'?

That sounds like the relevance is strictly past tense.



Yes. It is for me. I can't wait for the season to start.
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Did you not see my post above about the best game ever!
 


PJ Fleck: [wins 11 games]
swede2: “PJ’s ceiling is clearly 9 games.”

swede2 said:
PF has been here since 2017. Where is the evidence that the program is still be built going into season 9? I would argue that the program is built and there isn't evidence of an upward trajectory anymore. The ceiling is 9 wins but probably the realistic expectation each year is 7 or 8 wins with 5 being in conference. The recruiting has improved -we're not competing with MAC schools any more - but still is bottom 1/3 to 1/4 of the conference. PJ does punch above his weight finishing higher than the recruiting rankings would suggest, but we aren't within sniffing distance of the CFP. The landscape is shifting. Maybe PJ will prove to be adept at managing the new pay for play environment but if its a continuation of the pre-NIL and NIL era, then we'll continue on the same plateau. And maybe that's as good as it gets for us.
Click to expand...
 


Roland Brooks said:
Was the Big 10 schedule easier or harder in Mason’s era? Playing in the Big 10 west would seem to be a easier path…soft non conference schedule soft Big 10 West schedule and soft NIT bowl games..
Click to expand...
I think the West Division gave an "easier" path relatively speaking, but it was always a little more complex. It was a competitive division, Jeff Brohm could get that offense rolling, Chryst had consistently solid teams, Ferentz can obviously coach and Bielema strengthened Illinois when he arrived. Plus Fitz got a lot out of Northwestern and Nebraska at least had talent to compete.

Looking at the Big Ten as a whole, Michigan and Ohio State were consistently, Franklin has had Penn State in a good spot, for a good chunk of time Dantonio had Michigan State in a good spot.

I have wondered about the Mason era and a little bit before, though. Was an interesting time for the Big Ten for a while. You had Glen Mason rebuilding Minnesota, Alvarez rolling at Wisconsin, Carr doing good work at Michigan, Tiller resurrecting Purdue, John Cooper being pretty good at Ohio State and then Tressel taking over, plus Penn State entering the picture.
 

matt said:
PJ Fleck: [wins 11 games]
swede2: “PJ’s ceiling is clearly 9 games.”
Click to expand...
You ignore my premise - the program has been built, it is no longer being built. 2019 is ancient history and was accomplished in part with players from the previous regime. Where is the indication that the program has been on an upward trajectory since 2019? I of course allowed that perhaps PJ could be adept at navigating the new revenue sharing environment and improve, which is the great unknown. But, 2019 was an outlier and we have what we have. Many believe, like I do, that this is as good as it gets. Many are satisfied with that.
 

caliGopher said:
There are three kinds of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics - Mark Twain.

This post aims to highlight that you are not comparing apples to apples when evaluating Fleck's conference record in comparison to previous coaches, without taking anything away from Fleck's accomplishments.

There have been numerous changes in college football during Fleck's tenure. The most significant impact on any comparison like this is that Fleck has played more B1G games per season (9) than all previous coaches (8), except Claeys, who had 9 games as well in his one full season.
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First, I gotta give ya credit for that post. Must have taken quite a while, and you formatted it well.

Regarding the bolded, wouldn't that also give Fleck a chance to LOSE one more conference game per season than the previous coaches who only played 8? If the previous coaches win 4 games, they are .500 (4-4). If Fleck wins 4, he's .444 (4-5).
 

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