Dabo's 2nd season, was a losing season. His third year he went 10-4.
Fleck's 2nd season, was a winning season. His 3rd year he went 11-2.
How has Fleck not measured up to Dabo yet?
Fleck vs Dabo = Fleck WINS!!!
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Dabo's 2nd season, was a losing season. His third year he went 10-4.
Fleck's 2nd season, was a winning season. His 3rd year he went 11-2.
How has Fleck not measured up to Dabo yet?
A_Slab_of_Bacon
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I don't think when people think of Dabo they just think of his 2nd season.
If that's all you're going by enjoy, but man there must be a lot of Dabos out there for you...
Of course they don't think of his 2nd season, seeing as it was a losing season, or probably his 3rd season either, as he lost 4 games and not a single conf win was vs a team that finished in the rankings. But yeah look what he's done with Clemson since then. THAT is the point. If someone as accomplished as Dabo is now, started out how he did, what would prevent Fleck, who started out with better 2nd and 3rd year records against tougher competition with much lower rated recruits to work with, from going on to match what Dabo has done since then?
OddStack
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Dabo's harder schedule trumps your original weak ACC comment. When Dabo started the ACC wasn't as weak as the present. Versus ranked teams, while playing, first 2 years, Dabo 5-5; PJ 2-3
Dabo year 2: 6-7......played 4 teams when ranked 1-4
Dabo year3: 10-4...played 6 teams when ranked 4-2
PJ year2: 7-6.....played 1 team when ranked 0-1
PJ year 3: 11-2 played 4 teams when ranked 2-2
Dabo played as many (or more) ranked teams each year than PJ has played in the last two years combined.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Goph's trajectory and love your optimism, but I'll temper my enthusiasm and hope for Clemson-ish results until it happens.
RememberMurray
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Hoping for "Clemson-ish results"? Let's see how far we have to go to get there. According to your numbers...
Dabo at Clemson, Years 2 + 3 = 16-11
Fleck at Minnesota, Years 2 + 3 = 17-8
I'm assuming that your win totals listed above are correct, and that I've totaled them correctly. If so, it kind of looks like Fleck has already kept pace with Dabo in total wins and losses. Actually, he's surpassed Dabo.
Also, there's a discrepancy in the numbers you listed for Dabo vs. ranked teams. If Dabo was 1-4 in his second year plus 4-2 in his third year, that would equal 5-6 total, not 5-5.
So, if correct, that means Dabo was 5-6 and Fleck 2-3 against ranked teams.
Bottom line: it all looks pretty darned comparable to me. What am I missing?
Well how convenient that you picked the rankings at the time of the games, lol. Kind of manipulative if you ask me. Who cares how OVERRATED a team was when someone beat them? Well, unless you are trying to manipulate the narrative to fit the argument you WANT to make? Miami in 2010 was ranked when Clemson lost to them, and yet Miami STILL dropped so far after that they didn't even receive a single vote by the end of the season. So hardly worthy of being considered tough competition.
I prefer to look at the EOS rankings, the only ones that actually matter.
And I'll admit two things, I didn't remember Maryland was in the ACC at that time, AND RANKED?, lol, yeah, and as soon as they got to the B1G they haven't been ranked since, have they? Same with Rutgers, and look what happened to Nebraska, and even PSU(haven't gone undefeated since). Funny how that works. Teams get ranked playing in weak overrated conferences, move to the B1G and then can't ever seem to match their past accomplishments? And I forgot that Clemson played VT twice in 2011. Those 2 games are the difference I missed. All I saw was UMn played 6 games vs Top 20 teams winning 3 of them, with Clemson only playing 4 and losing all of them.
Well, looking only at EOS rankings, Minnesota played 5 Top 15 ranked teams in Fleck's 2nd & 3rd seasons, while Clemson played just 2 in Dabo's 2nd and 3rd seasons. Total Top 25s? 8 for Fleck, 10 for Dabo.
Another interesting stat, Fleck won 3 games vs Top 20 ranked teams, Dabo won ZERO.
And Fleck lost to 3 unranked teams in his 2nd season, but NONE in his 3rd.
Dabo lost to 4 unranked teams in his 2nd season, and to 2 in his 3rd, so TWICE AS MANY LOSSES to unranked teams than Fleck.
Another interesting stat, Fleck won BOTH of his Bowl Games, beating an ACC team and Auburn, something Dabo had 2 chances to do these 2 seasons, but failed to do. And Dabo lost BOTH of his Bowl games, against USF, lol, and Dabo lost his bowl game in 2011 to WVU by a score of 33-70.
SEVENTY???
So if you think Clemson's playing 1 more Top 25 ranked each of those two seasons means more than Minnesota playing the same number of Top 20 teams the 2nd year and twice as many the 3rd year, well, then our definitions of tough are not exactly in-line with each other.
FIFY
OddStack
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No, didn't care enough to look at final rankings. That's a lot of work. However, I will say a USF team that gave Clemson a losing record 6-7 would've been superior to a GT team that gave the Gophs a winning record 7-6.
Speaking of how manipulative...since when do people pay attention to EOS rankings? I've never even heard of it. How about sticking to the AP or the current Playoff rankings?
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EOS = End Of Season. Duh! Never heard of EOS rankings?
College Poll Archive | Historical College Football, Basketball, and Softball Polls and Rankings
There you go.
No one EVER has won a Natl Title by making #1 in the polls after week 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8, etc.. Only by being #1 in the EOS rankings, has a team EVER won a Natl Title, since they started putting out End of Season polls, that is.
RememberMurray
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Once again, these are your numbers:
Dabo at Clemson, Years 2 + 3 = 16-11
Fleck at Minnesota, Years 2 + 3 = 18-8
Dabo vs ranked teams, Years 2 + 3 = 5-6
Fleck vs ranked teams, Years 2 + 3 = 2-3
Pretty comparable. I'd give Fleck a slight edge.
OddStack
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EOS = End Of Season. Duh! Never heard of EOS rankings?
College Poll Archive | Historical College Football, Basketball, and Softball Polls and Rankings
www.collegepollarchive.com
There you go.
No one EVER has won a Natl Title by making #1 in the polls after week 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8, etc.. Only by being #1 in the EOS rankings, has a team EVER won a Natl Title, since they started putting out End of Season polls, that is.
So, I did go back and look at the final rankings.
Dabo year 2 1-3 (1 less game)
Dabo year 3 same as before, 6 games 4-2
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Clemson 2010 vs Minnesota 2018
Lost to #1 vs Lost to #3
Lost to #17 vs BEAT # 18
Lost to #22 vs Lost to #21
Beat #23 vs Lost to #25
Beat #25 vs Beat 8-5 RV Wisc
Lost to UR USF vs Beat UR G Tech
Lost to UR vs Lost to UR
Lost to UR vs Lost to UR
Lost to UR vs Lost to UR
6-7 vs 7-6
Clemson 2011 vs Minnesota 2019
Lost to #9 vs Beat #9
Lost to #17 vs Lost to #11
Beat #21 vs Beat #14
Beat #21 vs Lost to #15
Beat #23 vs Beat Illinois
Lost to UR vs Beat GSU
Lost to UR vs Beat Purdue or Maryland
10-4 vs 11-2
So Clemson played ONE MORE Top 25 team each year, but UMn played 50% more Top 20 teams.
And Clemson lost 50% more games to UR teams.
And Clemson went WINLESS(0-4) vs Top 20 ranked teams.
And Minnesota won THREE games(3-3) vs Top 20 ranked teams.
18-8 > 16-11
3-3 > 0-4
11-2 would be a push? Really?
Clemson played 2 ranked teams in 2012 and lost to both of them. They did however beat #14 LSU in their bowl game. Between Michigan, Wisc & Iowa, I'm sure we'll do better than 0-2, and if any of them finish #14 or better and we beat them, we could lose to the other 2 and either match or best Dabo's/Clemson's 4th season, before even playing the Bowl game.
Clemson's ooc games that year? UR Auburn, Ball St and Furman. I'd say FAU, BYU & Tn Tech may end up more than comparable as FAU finished 2019 ranked #27 in both polls and BYU might not be horrible?
And this is discounting the possibility of Neb, NW, Purd, Ill or Maryland having a good year and making the Top 25.
So a 10-3 or even a 9-4 season next year could be comparable to Clemson in 2012 depending on how all the teams end up ranked and whether we beat any of them or not. And if we go 11-2, I'd guess it wouldn't be anything near a push.
OddStack
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Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa......I thought all that matters was EOS. Are the Gophs topping #9 (Clemson in 2012) in 2020?
My take? Well, that is really hard to say, I have a ton of confidence in Fleck's recruiting ability/ability to find the right guys to fit into his system, and I also think he's great at coaching them up. But with so many new faces coming in to start on defense, and the Iowa game being so early in the season, and FAU might be legit, too? But I could see our winning late season games where we go in as the underdogs if we lose early to either Iowa or FAU or both of them. So depending on how well our competition is next year, I predicted 10-2 regular season last year, was one of the only here at GH who did, so I want to try for 2 years in a row, so I don't want to be too pie in the sky. I think we'll beat Michigan and we just might lose to both UW and Iowa again(only because the Iowa game is so early), and I'm thinking there will be one other loss, so my WAY TOO EARLY prediction for 2020 is 9-3 regular season with another big upset win in their Bowl game, for a 10-3 season and a Top 20 ranking.
Well, first of all, Clemson did NOT finish the season ranked #9. They went into their bowl game ranked #14, and beat #9 LSU by 1 pt and moved up to #11 in the Final EOS AP poll.
Did the Coaches Poll have them at #9 or something?
Clemson finished 2011 ranked #22,
UMn ended 2019 ranked #10, btw, since you mentioned it, which is better than Clemson's #11 in 2012.
And just like recruiting rankings don't win you Natl Titles, Nice EOS rankings are just that, they are nice. They are good for bragging rights when debating fans of other cfb programs or arguing about which coach is better, this coach or that coach, etc.. But they don't win you Natl Titles. And so Clemson got OVERRATED in 2012, which may have helped Dabo's recruiting, but it didn't help him get to the point of eventually winning a Natl Title. Didn't hurt, but Fleck doesn't have to match Dabo's 4th season exactly, as he's already had a Top Ten season, all he has to do really to keep up with Dabo is finish better than #22 and bring in a recruiting class better than 27th.
OddStack
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Like I said, I love your optimism, I hope you're right. I think Michigan implodes even more this year and finishes unranked and Harbaugh resigns or gets canned. Also, I was wrong and gave the wrong ranking. Clemson finished #11 in 2012; the #9 was the Coaches Poll.
Well, that's ok, we all make mistakes, like how I forgot Maryland was in the ACC back in 2010-11, and you were technically right since the Coaches Poll is just as legit as the AP poll.
I hope we DO finish Top 8 in 2020. At another sports site I predicted we'd lose to OSU in the B1G Title game and would finish Top 8 in 2020, and then would go undefeated and would win the Natl Title in 2021.
But I talk more sh1t there than I do here, lol.If we somehow pull off that Iowa game, along with our ooc games of course, then look the F out B1G, because then we could have another season like 2019, if not a little better. And if we could go without losing any players early to the NFL after 2020, our 2021 squad could be truly special. Great time to be a Gopher sports fan.