Fleck extension makes the Johnson hiring more logical in hindsight

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Lakers612

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Seems like Coyle has gone all in on Fleck and the football program. In hindsight, seems like Coyle decided to underpay/undervalue our basketball staff in order to compensate whatever Fleck was going to need to stay.

As someone who is fan of both the football team and the basketball team, I'm not necessarily against it. But it seems like the fate of our basketball program is in the hands of Fleck and the football program right now. If they win and start drawing large crowds on gameday and become a perennial Top 15 program over the next 3-4 years, then I think Coyle will be ready to spend on an elite basketball staff. Think Coyle had decided that building a strong football program will have a domino effect on the other sports.

Once Fleck elevates Minnesota into the Iowa/Wisconsin conversation for football (which could happen in the next two years at this rate), then Coyle makes his move for basketball.

Question is whether he has already identified his guy or is waiting for a wild card candidate to emerge.

I don't type all of this to disparage Ben Johnson. I just am not sure how anyone can interpret his hiring as anything else than a cost-saving measure.
 



Lakers612 said:
Seems like Coyle has gone all in on Fleck and the football program. In hindsight, seems like Coyle decided to underpay/undervalue our basketball staff in order to compensate whatever Fleck was going to need to stay.

As someone who is fan of both the football team and the basketball team, I'm not necessarily against it. But it seems like the fate of our basketball program is in the hands of Fleck and the football program right now. If they win and start drawing large crowds on gameday and become a perennial Top 15 program over the next 3-4 years, then I think Coyle will be ready to spend on an elite basketball staff. Think Coyle had decided that building a strong football program will have a domino effect on the other sports.

Once Fleck elevates Minnesota into the Iowa/Wisconsin conversation for football (which could happen in the next two years at this rate), then Coyle makes his move for basketball.

Question is whether he has already identified his guy or is waiting for a wild card candidate to emerge.

I don't type all of this to disparage Ben Johnson. I just am not sure how anyone can interpret his hiring as anything else than a cost-saving measure.
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The subject of Johnson's hire has been discussed ad nauseum with everyone having their particular ideas. I don't think that the fates of a NCAA football and basketball program are very closely aligned. If it were, we would see Alabama and Clemson basketball repeatedly in the Final Four. If it were, we would see Kentucky and Kansas perennially in the CFP discussions.

I personally think that this was a particularly gutty roll of the dice in an effort to try something different to see if the results would be better. We've tried the low major, hot commodity coach twice in Monson and Pitino to little success. We tried poaching an established, national championship-winning coach from arguably the most successful basketball program of all time in Smith without results that satisfied.

The play here was to hire a young, inexperienced, up and coming coach with strong ties to the area to reconnect the community to the program by reestablishing the U as THE destination for the hot shot recruits in the area. We will see whether this is successful over the next few years. Sit back and enjoy or don't!
 

ecoperson said:
The play here was to hire a young, inexperienced, up and coming coach with strong ties to the area to reconnect the community to the program by reestablishing the U as THE destination for the hot shot recruits in the area.
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Yep, this.

As a significant factor.

There is another significant factor that you didn't mention here. One where the President and Regents had a strong say. But anyway, it's done now, so we can only hope it works out.
 


howeda7 said:
We could have had him for the same $ as we're paying Ben.
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Correct. Or...if they really felt that Ben was the right guy regardless (they might have)...they could have gotten Ben for about a half million less and loaded him up with performance bonuses. Paying a guy with zero experience, a guy who was shooting (and missing) for a job that paid half what we gave him, is not that smart.
 

bga1 said:
Correct. Or...if they really felt that Ben was the right guy regardless (they might have)...they could have gotten Ben for about a half million less and loaded him up with performance bonuses. Paying a guy with zero experience, a guy who was shooting (and missing) for a job that paid half what we gave him, is not that smart.
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Oddly, I think the response to your scenario might actually have been worse. If they wanted Johnson and paid him a pittance compared to all other coaches in the Big Ten, this wouldn't be just receiving local scrutiny. This would have become a NATIONAL story about how the U has turned its back on the program, about the U undercutting pay for head coaches, or about the U paying significantly less for a coach of color. You know how people work.... they will ALWAYS find the angle to fit their narrative. Hiring Johnson at the bottom of the pay scale in the conference- but only by a bit- allows much of the NATIONAL narrative to fly under the radar. This allows the U brand to be relatively untarnished nationally so it doesn't hurt national recruiting.
 

ecoperson said:
Oddly, I think the response to your scenario might actually have been worse. If they wanted Johnson and paid him a pittance compared to all other coaches in the Big Ten, this wouldn't be just receiving local scrutiny. This would have become a NATIONAL story about how the U has turned its back on the program, about the U undercutting pay for head coaches, or about the U paying significantly less for a coach of color. You know how people work.... they will ALWAYS find the angle to fit their narrative. Hiring Johnson at the bottom of the pay scale in the conference- but only by a bit- allows much of the NATIONAL narrative to fly under the radar. This allows the U brand to be relatively untarnished nationally so it doesn't hurt national recruiting.
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This is correct.

But like I said ... well, just read and respond to #2. Where we could've had an actual, successful head coach.

Sure, like you said: "roll the dice".
 

ecoperson said:
Oddly, I think the response to your scenario might actually have been worse. If they wanted Johnson and paid him a pittance compared to all other coaches in the Big Ten, this wouldn't be just receiving local scrutiny. This would have become a NATIONAL story about how the U has turned its back on the program, about the U undercutting pay for head coaches, or about the U paying significantly less for a coach of color. You know how people work.... they will ALWAYS find the angle to fit their narrative. Hiring Johnson at the bottom of the pay scale in the conference- but only by a bit- allows much of the NATIONAL narrative to fly under the radar. This allows the U brand to be relatively untarnished nationally so it doesn't hurt national recruiting.
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Just because you hire someone into the B1G does not mean you can instantly compare their salary to other coaches in conference. Ben is getting paid as a first time head coach, and he should get paid accordingly until he wins. I agree with everyone who says it would have been fine to offer $500k less for the initial contract and no one would have had a problem with it. It still would have been triple the other jobs he interviewed for. Least experienced head coach in conference is getting paid the least, there is no story or narrative here.
 



ecoperson said:
The subject of Johnson's hire has been discussed ad nauseum with everyone having their particular ideas. I don't think that the fates of a NCAA football and basketball program are very closely aligned. If it were, we would see Alabama and Clemson basketball repeatedly in the Final Four. If it were, we would see Kentucky and Kansas perennially in the CFP discussions.

I personally think that this was a particularly gutty roll of the dice in an effort to try something different to see if the results would be better. We've tried the low major, hot commodity coach twice in Monson and Pitino to little success. We tried poaching an established, national championship-winning coach from arguably the most successful basketball program of all time in Smith without results that satisfied.

The play here was to hire a young, inexperienced, up and coming coach with strong ties to the area to reconnect the community to the program by reestablishing the U as THE destination for the hot shot recruits in the area. We will see whether this is successful over the next few years. Sit back and enjoy or don't!
Click to expand...
While I slightly disagree with your interpretation on the play for the hiring of Johnson, I do agree that the fates of the football and basketball programs are two mutually exclusive events.

You might be able to argue that the U could never have hired Ben Johnson if our football program was awful, but I'm not even sure if that's true.
 

Coyle is safe because of Fleck's success.

So yes, if BJ was largely Coyle's "idea", perhaps at the behest of the President and Regents to "try to find a Black man to be the coach", then he would feel some sense of security in "rolling the dice" on a guy that had never been head coach yet and had been turned down for that role before.
 

ecoperson said:
The subject of Johnson's hire has been discussed ad nauseum with everyone having their particular ideas. I don't think that the fates of a NCAA football and basketball program are very closely aligned. If it were, we would see Alabama and Clemson basketball repeatedly in the Final Four. If it were, we would see Kentucky and Kansas perennially in the CFP discussions.

I personally think that this was a particularly gutty roll of the dice in an effort to try something different to see if the results would be better. We've tried the low major, hot commodity coach twice in Monson and Pitino to little success. We tried poaching an established, national championship-winning coach from arguably the most successful basketball program of all time in Smith without results that satisfied.

The play here was to hire a young, inexperienced, up and coming coach with strong ties to the area to reconnect the community to the program by reestablishing the U as THE destination for the hot shot recruits in the area. We will see whether this is successful over the next few years. Sit back and enjoy or don't!
Click to expand...
Its been reported twice that Ben being hired was Gables decision, not Coyles.
 





FWIW - one of the major factor's in Johnson's hiring was because he is "one of us." Native Minnesotan - former Gopher player and Gopher assistant.

I have no idea how much of a role that skin color may, or may not have played in the hiring decision.

but make no mistake, Johnson got the job at least in part because he is "one of us." Which ties into the in-state recruiting issue.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
FWIW - one of the major factor's in Johnson's hiring was because he is "one of us." Native Minnesotan - former Gopher player and Gopher assistant.

I have no idea how much of a role that skin color may, or may not have played in the hiring decision.

but make no mistake, Johnson got the job at least in part because he is "one of us." Which ties into the in-state recruiting issue.
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He chose NW. why didn’t they hire him?
 

I think you’re reading a little too much into it. I doubt they are as closely related as you think. I doubt any decent AD would sit there and say let’s underpay one coach so we can afford to pay the football coach more. Both programs are important to Coyle.
 

ecoperson said:
I personally think that this was a particularly gutty roll of the dice in an effort to try something different to see if the results would be better. We've tried the low major, hot commodity coach twice in Monson and Pitino to little success. We tried poaching an established, national championship-winning coach from arguably the most successful basketball program of all time in Smith without results that satisfied.

The play here was to hire a young, inexperienced, up and coming coach with strong ties to the area to reconnect the community to the program by reestablishing the U as THE destination for the hot shot recruits in the area. We will see whether this is successful over the next few years. Sit back and enjoy or don't!
Click to expand...
Pretty much sums it up nicely...
 

ecoperson said:
Oddly, I think the response to your scenario might actually have been worse. If they wanted Johnson and paid him a pittance compared to all other coaches in the Big Ten, this wouldn't be just receiving local scrutiny. This would have become a NATIONAL story about how the U has turned its back on the program, about the U undercutting pay for head coaches, or about the U paying significantly less for a coach of color. You know how people work.... they will ALWAYS find the angle to fit their narrative. Hiring Johnson at the bottom of the pay scale in the conference- but only by a bit- allows much of the NATIONAL narrative to fly under the radar. This allows the U brand to be relatively untarnished nationally so it doesn't hurt national recruiting.
Click to expand...
Oh, I totally get why they paid him considerably more than he was worth on the market. It was all racial optics. You are correct 100%. As far as the brand for national recruiting, they certainly could have given him a fantastic incentive program for winning that would have fixed that. If he wins at Musselman level than he gets paid like that. If he wins at a very low level then he gets the base.

Isn't it kind of a slap in the face to the people who bought the 5000 season tickets that they overpaid the coach by a half million a year for optics- yet those same loyal ticket holders got zero discount for this melted down product, at the same time football ticket holders get in the door free?
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
Its been reported twice that Ben being hired was Gables decision, not Coyles.
Click to expand...
If Gabel had wanted a black coach, Sam Mitchell would be the Gophers coach right now... he would have been a slamdunk as an appeasement coach.

Coyle went with the young coach who he thought could connect with the local talent. Whether or not it was the right hire, time will tell. It does a disservice to Coyle to bandy about this Gabel stuff, though. Coyle owns this hire, for better or worse...
 

bga1 said:
Correct. Or...if they really felt that Ben was the right guy regardless (they might have)...they could have gotten Ben for about a half million less and loaded him up with performance bonuses. Paying a guy with zero experience, a guy who was shooting (and missing) for a job that paid half what we gave him, is not that smart.
Click to expand...
Agree. Frankly, Ben would too, I bet
 

ecoperson said:
The subject of Johnson's hire has been discussed ad nauseum with everyone having their particular ideas. I don't think that the fates of a NCAA football and basketball program are very closely aligned. If it were, we would see Alabama and Clemson basketball repeatedly in the Final Four. If it were, we would see Kentucky and Kansas perennially in the CFP discussions.

I personally think that this was a particularly gutty roll of the dice in an effort to try something different to see if the results would be better. We've tried the low major, hot commodity coach twice in Monson and Pitino to little success. We tried poaching an established, national championship-winning coach from arguably the most successful basketball program of all time in Smith without results that satisfied.

The play here was to hire a young, inexperienced, up and coming coach with strong ties to the area to reconnect the community to the program by reestablishing the U as THE destination for the hot shot recruits in the area. We will see whether this is successful over the next few years. Sit back and enjoy or don't!
Click to expand...
It wasn't gutty. But it may well turn out to be the right move. Time will tell. In the short term it is going to be brutal.
 

laazrakit said:
If Gabel had wanted a black coach, Sam Mitchell would be the Gophers coach right now... he would have been a slamdunk as an appeasement coach.

Coyle went with the young coach who he thought could connect with the local talent. Whether or not it was the right hire, time will tell. It does a disservice to Coyle to bandy about this Gabel stuff, though. Coyle owns this hire, for better or worse...
Click to expand...
Mitchell isn't really from here and Mitchell would have wanted more dough. Gabel made the hire. Coyle will get the credit or blame.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Yeah I'm sure those people would know Reusse and Shama notoriously known for not being full of shit.
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True, but were also not reporters, so if thats their primary source of income, they might have a source w knowledge.

Im just glad hes off to a good start for next years class and this is a learning year for him.
 

laazrakit said:
If Gabel had wanted a black coach, Sam Mitchell would be the Gophers coach right now... he would have been a slamdunk as an appeasement coach.

Coyle went with the young coach who he thought could connect with the local talent. Whether or not it was the right hire, time will tell. It does a disservice to Coyle to bandy about this Gabel stuff, though. Coyle owns this hire, for better or worse...
Click to expand...
If you pay any attention to how Coyle hired all his other coaches, then you'd realize he did not hire Ben Johnson. The first words Coyle said were the committee will decide. Football, women's basketball, hockey, softball Coyle picked the coach. There were no committees.
 

Lakers612 said:
Seems like Coyle has gone all in on Fleck and the football program. In hindsight, seems like Coyle decided to underpay/undervalue our basketball staff in order to compensate whatever Fleck was going to need to stay.

As someone who is fan of both the football team and the basketball team, I'm not necessarily against it. But it seems like the fate of our basketball program is in the hands of Fleck and the football program right now. If they win and start drawing large crowds on gameday and become a perennial Top 15 program over the next 3-4 years, then I think Coyle will be ready to spend on an elite basketball staff. Think Coyle had decided that building a strong football program will have a domino effect on the other sports.

Once Fleck elevates Minnesota into the Iowa/Wisconsin conversation for football (which could happen in the next two years at this rate), then Coyle makes his move for basketball.

Question is whether he has already identified his guy or is waiting for a wild card candidate to emerge.

I don't type all of this to disparage Ben Johnson. I just am not sure how anyone can interpret his hiring as anything else than a cost-saving measure.
Click to expand...

What happens if Ben Johnson becomes more successful than Fleck in the next few years....

I think this post is silly....we didn't hire Johnson to replace him in a few years after the football team becomes better. We hired him to get some of the local talent we haven't been getting the last 8 years under the previous coach. I've heard that this coaching staff has a totally different feel than the previous one as far as connected with local high school programs, going to open gyms and developing personal relationships. From what I've heard I am confident that this staff will be very successful within the next five years. Conversely, I had heard stories about the previous coaching staff that had me very concerned six or seven years ago.
 

SanDiegoGopherFan said:
True, but were also not reporters, so if thats their primary source of income, they might have a source w knowledge.

Im just glad hes off to a good start for next years class and this is a learning year for him.
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Are you sure you can say he's off to a good start? We seem to be focused on Minnesota recruits. In a bonanza year with 13/14 high school kids available to sign from Minnesota 247 says we got the 7th, 10th and 11th best kids from Minnesota.
https://247sports.com/Season/2022-B...ankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool&State=MN
 
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ethomasp31 said:
What happens if Ben Johnson becomes more successful than Fleck in the next few years....

I think this post is silly....we didn't hire Johnson to replace him in a few years after the football team becomes better. We hired him to get some of the local talent we haven't been getting the last 8 years under the previous coach. I've heard that this coaching staff has a totally different feel than the previous one as far as connected with local high school programs, going to open gyms and developing personal relationships. From what I've heard I am confident that this staff will be very successful within the next five years. Conversely, I had heard stories about the previous coaching staff that had me very concerned six or seven years ago.
Click to expand...
abe lincoln.png
 

laazrakit said:
If Gabel had wanted a black coach, Sam Mitchell would be the Gophers coach right now... he would have been a slamdunk as an appeasement coach.

Coyle went with the young coach who he thought could connect with the local talent. Whether or not it was the right hire, time will tell. It does a disservice to Coyle to bandy about this Gabel stuff, though. Coyle owns this hire, for better or worse...
Click to expand...
Sam Mitchell is the candidate that was rumored who would have been a worse hire than Ben.
 


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