Fleck extension makes the Johnson hiring more logical in hindsight

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bga1 said:
As far as the brand for national recruiting, they certainly could have given him a fantastic incentive program for winning that would have fixed that. If he wins at Musselman level than he gets paid like that. If he wins at a very low level then he gets the base.
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I don’t understand why this is not the norm. For example, a P5 coach could get a $2.5 million base salary + $400k per conference win.
 

laazrakit said:
If Gabel had wanted a black coach, Sam Mitchell would be the Gophers coach right now... he would have been a slamdunk as an appeasement coach.

Coyle went with the young coach who he thought could connect with the local talent. Whether or not it was the right hire, time will tell. It does a disservice to Coyle to bandy about this Gabel stuff, though. Coyle owns this hire, for better or worse...
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I am not one to readily dismiss the U of doing anything with an eye towards race politics, but I just don't see the payoff being big enough to hire Johnson because he was black. Perhaps if we had a long tradition of not hiring black basketball coaches, but that isn't the case. But there is just too much money at stake to hire him purely to appease a group of people that will mostly likely never attend a basketball game.

I think it was because Gabel legitimately thinks that local recruits will come here because Ben Johnson grew up here. Though this reason may not be much better than the race angle because the high school basketball players in this state could care less that Ben Johnson played at DeLaSalle a couple years before they were born.
 

60's Guy said:
Are you sure you can say he's off to a good start? We seem to be focused on Minnesota recruits. In a bonanza year with 13/14 high school kids available to sign from Minnesota 247 says we got the 7th, 10th and 11th best kids from Minnesota.
https://247sports.com/Season/2022-B...ankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool&State=MN
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I'm not convinced. He certainly deserves the time like any other new coach. But this is the guy that was in charge of Minnesota recruiting for five years. I don't understand the obsession with Minnesota recruiting but recruiting Jarvis Omersa, Michael Hurt level MN kids won't move the needle forward. Unfortunately, that is the national profile of the three he has signed. Nothing really has changed in that regard.
 



Lakers612 said:
Seems like Coyle has gone all in on Fleck and the football program. In hindsight, seems like Coyle decided to underpay/undervalue our basketball staff in order to compensate whatever Fleck was going to need to stay.

As someone who is fan of both the football team and the basketball team, I'm not necessarily against it. But it seems like the fate of our basketball program is in the hands of Fleck and the football program right now. If they win and start drawing large crowds on gameday and become a perennial Top 15 program over the next 3-4 years, then I think Coyle will be ready to spend on an elite basketball staff. Think Coyle had decided that building a strong football program will have a domino effect on the other sports.

Once Fleck elevates Minnesota into the Iowa/Wisconsin conversation for football (which could happen in the next two years at this rate), then Coyle makes his move for basketball.

Question is whether he has already identified his guy or is waiting for a wild card candidate to emerge.

I don't type all of this to disparage Ben Johnson. I just am not sure how anyone can interpret his hiring as anything else than a cost-saving measure.
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First of all, that "IF" is so iffy that it can't even be considered at this point. Secondly, if it would take that kind of development for an AD to take an interest in supporting basketball, then I think a program that really wants to compete in the sport has the wrong AD. If you take a look around the league, the substantial majority of institutions seem to invest in both. Perhaps we could say that Northwestern and Penn State don't appear to be as concerned about basketball based on their histories. Even Nebraska, where football has always been the king, didn't go cheapskate when it came to hiring their current basketball coach.
 

golfing18now said:
I don't understand the obsession with Minnesota recruiting but recruiting Jarvis Omersa, Michael Hurt level MN kids won't move the needle forward.
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I'd say your statement is on the diplomatic side.
 

WoodburyTim said:
I am not one to readily dismiss the U of doing anything with an eye towards race politics, but I just don't see the payoff being big enough to hire Johnson because he was black. Perhaps if we had a long tradition of not hiring black basketball coaches, but that isn't the case. But there is just too much money at stake to hire him purely to appease a group of people that will mostly likely never attend a basketball game.

I think it was because Gabel legitimately thinks that local recruits will come here because Ben Johnson grew up here. Though this reason may not be much better than the race angle because the high school basketball players in this state could care less that Ben Johnson played at DeLaSalle a couple years before they were born.
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It was both. Not one or the other.

Craig Smith and Niko both have obvious Minnesota ties. And had actually been hired for head coaching jobs in their careers.
 

The TC does produce, and I think fairly consistently now, some nice high-level bball talent.

But unless the Gophers become a Duke/Gonzaga level program ... those really high level guys will mostly choose not to play here.


Because they want to leave the TC. They don't want to stay. They want to get away from Mom & Dad and the family, and strike off on their own for a few years (at least).

It's just the natural way of things. Not at all 100%. We will get some now and then (talking 4/5*, not the 3* guys). But mostly not.
 



60's Guy said:
Football, women's basketball, hockey, softball Coyle picked the coach. There were no committees.
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No committees? Really? That's typically not how most hirings are done in higher ed, at least not for large institutions. Now, there are some committees where the committee is just a rubber stamp for the leader but there are other committees where other forces may have more influence. Always remember that an AD is not at the top of the food chain of a large university.
 

golfing18now said:
I'm not convinced. He certainly deserves the time like any other new coach. But this is the guy that was in charge of Minnesota recruiting for five years. I don't understand the obsession with Minnesota recruiting but recruiting Jarvis Omersa, Michael Hurt level MN kids won't move the needle forward. Unfortunately, that is the national profile of the three he has signed. Nothing really has changed in that regard.
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Are you seriously comparing Carrington, Ola-Joseph, and Payne to Omersa and Hurt?! The three that will sign next week are considered solid rotational players. Omersa and Hurt were recruited on potential and legacy respectively.

If you feel differently then provide some research to back up your statement rather than throwing shade at our new recruits. I don't have time to do the research for you. I am honestly not certain why you are a fan of this horrible program with horrible coaches and players that won't move the needle forward. We might as well just disband the program because we are not going to win the conference this year.
 
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cjbfbp said:
No committees? Really? That's typically not how most hirings are done in higher ed, at least not for large institutions. Now, there are some committees where the committee is just a rubber stamp for the leader but there are other committees where other forces may have more influence. Always remember that an AD is not at the top of the food chain of a large university.
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Bolded: true, but Prez and Regents are very busy and have very many other issues that they have to constantly deal with.

For some of these smaller sports that aren't generating (significant) revenue anyway, I'm guessing they'll just default to the AD's choice and sign the contract.
 

ecoperson said:
Are you seriously comparing Carrington, Ola-Joseph, and Payne to Omersa and Hurt?! The three that will sign next week are considered solid rotational players. Omersa and Hurt were recruited on potential and legacy respectively.

If you feel differently then provide some research to back up your statement rather than throwing shade at our new recruits. I don't have time to do the research for you. I am honestly not certain why you are a fan of this horrible program with horrible coaches and players that won't move the needle forward. We might as well just disband the program because we are not going to win the conference this year.
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The three new guys might be fabulous but they are not highly rated. Michael Hurt was runner-up Mr Basketball in Minnesota. Many people thought he would be a solid albeit not spectacular Big Ten starter when he signed. The guy who gets paid to write for Gopher inside info...Burns maybe is the name? whoever, same guy today. Argued hard Hurt would be awesome!

Omersa had similar pub to these guys from my recollection. Worked hard, athletic, strong, just struggled with the ball in his hands.

The three new incoming guys didn't have any better offers than the Gophers....lesser conferences than the Big Ten.
No question, Michael hurt was likely recruited to get Matthew but he was expected to be better and many thought he was.
 



MplsGopher said:
Bolded: true, but Prez and Regents are very busy and have very many other issues that they have to constantly deal with.

For some of these smaller sports that aren't generating (significant) revenue anyway, I'm guessing they'll just default to the AD's choice and sign the contract.
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And at the time of Fleck....the old President didn't care who...just get me a new football coach by sundown. Turn the page.
 

ecoperson said:
Are you seriously comparing Carrington, Ola-Joseph, and Payne to Omersa and Hurt?! The three that will sign next week are considered solid rotational players. Omersa and Hurt were recruited on potential and legacy respectively.

If you feel differently then provide some research to back up your statement rather than throwing shade at our new recruits. I don't have time to do the research for you. I am honestly not certain why you are a fan of this horrible program with horrible coaches and players that won't move the needle forward. We might as well just disband the program because we are not going to win the conference this year.
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I feel good about the 3 we have as being solid. Now go get three more and one needs to be a star.
 

ecoperson said:
. . . We've tried the low major, hot commodity coach twice in Monson and Pitino to little success.
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Pitino was not a hot commodity coach when hired. He had been a head coach for 1 year, and he was just over 30 years old. Very different than where Monson was when he was hired.
 

If Ben fails we can rest easy knowing it won’t be Ben’s fault.
 

WoodburyTim said:
I am not one to readily dismiss the U of doing anything with an eye towards race politics, but I just don't see the payoff being big enough to hire Johnson because he was black. Perhaps if we had a long tradition of not hiring black basketball coaches, but that isn't the case. But there is just too much money at stake to hire him purely to appease a group of people that will mostly likely never attend a basketball game.

I think it was because Gabel legitimately thinks that local recruits will come here because Ben Johnson grew up here. Though this reason may not be much better than the race angle because the high school basketball players in this state could care less that Ben Johnson played at DeLaSalle a couple years before they were born.
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Coyle had Brian Dutcher all lined up to be the next Gopher Coach and Gabel stepped in and said we can't hire Dutcher cause of a certain physical trait. That's the truth. That being said, I wish nothing but the best to Johnson. He seems like a great guy and I would LOVE for him to be successful and get Gopher basketball back to being the hottest ticket in town.
 

ecoperson said:
Are you seriously comparing Carrington, Ola-Joseph, and Payne to Omersa and Hurt?! The three that will sign next week are considered solid rotational players. Omersa and Hurt were recruited on potential and legacy respectively.

If you feel differently then provide some research to back up your statement rather than throwing shade at our new recruits. I don't have time to do the research for you. I am honestly not certain why you are a fan of this horrible program with horrible coaches and players that won't move the needle forward. We might as well just disband the program because we are not going to win the conference this year.
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This is a way over the top reaction based on what I wrote. Go back through my posting history on the Gophers basketball program and you will find I'm far from a knee jerk reaction guy and/or spend any time on the game day threads insulting 18 year olds. You will probably need to go back a few months because I haven't posted anything on the basketball program recently given there has been nothing to post about. If my post above bothers you this much, you might want to stay away from the game day threads.

My comment above isn't even necessarily a slight at any of the recruits and/or at the coach. They are certainly allowed to outperform their recruit rankings but based on the schools that had offered these kids (this is how I evaluate players, not at how they perform against local high schools), it's an underwhelming start. Ben will have other classes to pull in more players. Talent is ultimately what wins at this level, not the number of kids or coaches with Minnesota home addresses. <----- that is my real frustration with this program.....a Doug Woog era outdated provincialism that won't ultimately serve us well, in my opinion. The elite basketball programs don't worry about "locking down the borders."
 

ethomasp31 said:
What happens if Ben Johnson becomes more successful than Fleck in the next few years....

I think this post is silly....we didn't hire Johnson to replace him in a few years after the football team becomes better. We hired him to get some of the local talent we haven't been getting the last 8 years under the previous coach. I've heard that this coaching staff has a totally different feel than the previous one as far as connected with local high school programs, going to open gyms and developing personal relationships. From what I've heard I am confident that this staff will be very successful within the next five years. Conversely, I had heard stories about the previous coaching staff that had me very concerned six or seven years ago.
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Couldn't agree more with this take.
 



ethomasp31 said:
We hired him to get some of the local talent we haven't been getting the last 8 years under the previous coach. I've heard that this coaching staff has a totally different feel than the previous one as far as connected with local high school programs, going to open gyms and developing personal relationships.
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Right, this was the "idea" and the play.

They will try hard to do this.


I still don't think it's going to work, short of Minnesota becoming a top 10 type of program. At least for most - not all, but most - of the 4*/5* Twin Cities recruits.

They want out. Out of the Twin Cities. Away from Mom & Dad and family. Go someplace else, see what it's like not to live here.

It's too powerful to prevent ... again, like I said, unless we become a very top program.
 

golfing18now said:
I don't understand the obsession with Minnesota recruiting
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I liken it to the phenomena you might see (particularly in a rural or suburban area) while you're in the audience seeing a cover band in a bar or at an outdoor festival. The band could play three good but more obscure songs in a row very well and get little reaction from the crowd. But, if they then break into "Sweet Caroline" or "Sweet Home Alabama," the majority of the crowd snaps to attention.

Perhaps for the majority of the population, what they like is what they know.
 

MplsGopher said:
Right, this was the "idea" and the play.

They will try hard to do this.


I still don't think it's going to work, short of Minnesota becoming a top 10 type of program. At least for most - not all, but most - of the 4*/5* Twin Cities recruits.

They want out. Out of the Twin Cities. Away from Mom & Dad and family. Go someplace else, see what it's like not to live here.

It's too powerful to prevent ... again, like I said, unless we become a very top program.
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We will see....

If the Gophers sign Chatman and Winter in 2023 I think we will be signing Johnson to a Fleck like extension is 5 years rather than trying to replace him. If we don’t sign Winter and Chatman it won’t be because Johnson and Thorson didn’t recruit them super hard, make them their number 1 targets or put in the effort. In the past that wasn’t the case.
 

ethomasp31 said:
We will see....

If the Gophers sign Chatman and Winter in 2023 I think we will be signing Johnson to a Fleck like extension is 5 years rather than trying to replace him. If we don’t sign Winter and Chatman it won’t be because Johnson and Thorson didn’t recruit them super hard, make them their number 1 targets or put in the effort. In the past that wasn’t the case.
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Pitino wouldn't have landed them. Fans say "he didn't try hard".

If Johnson doesn't land them, but fans say "well, at least he tried hard" ....


I just don't see that much of a difference. The end result matters.
 

MplsGopher said:
Pitino wouldn't have landed them. Fans say "he didn't try hard".

If Johnson doesn't land them, but fans say "well, at least he tried hard" ....


I just don't see that much of a difference. The end result matters.
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I know for a fact he is recruiting them hard....
 

ethomasp31 said:
I know for a fact he is recruiting them hard....
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Of course he is. That is literally the reason he was hired. To do that. I doubt anyone believes otherwise.

I'm just saying, if we don't land them, then it doesn't really matter.


Maybe that's why Pitino didn't. Maybe he just gave up, knowing that most MN high-star guys want out? Wild guessing there.
 

MplsGopher said:
Of course he is. That is literally the reason he was hired. To do that. I doubt anyone believes otherwise.

I'm just saying, if we don't land them, then it doesn't really matter.


Maybe that's why Pitino didn't. Maybe he just gave up, knowing that most MN high-star guys want out? Wild guessing there.
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maybe Pitino did for some of them....
 

MplsGopher said:
Of course he is. That is literally the reason he was hired. To do that. I doubt anyone believes otherwise.

I'm just saying, if we don't land them, then it doesn't really matter.


Maybe that's why Pitino didn't. Maybe he just gave up, knowing that most MN high-star guys want out? Wild guessing there.
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I believe that some of the guys we missed out on were more receptive of the U than most people on here believe. Not all....but some.
 

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