Fla TE Aaron Batten may commit to Gophers soon

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My point is not that 4 star players are plentiful and should be easy to recruit to Minnesota. My point is that players like Batten are not likely to make you competitive with the upper echelons of the B1G. The Gophers were manhandled by Nebraska, Michigan, Mich St, Wisconsin and even Iowa. Northwestern is a far more talented team as well as evidenced by their record and close losses to PennSt, Neb and Mich. Yes , the Gophers took big strides this year but still only won 2 B1G games. All things being equal the teams who recruit the best players win more games. Last year the Gophers recruited 4 4 star players-Harbison, McDonald, Pirsig and Hayes. I hope more talent is headed to TCF this year.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Well, this year is really difficult because there are 5 non-AQ teams.

However, this year (out of the 20 AQ teams in the top 25). . .

KState (26th)
Nebraska (30th)
Oregon State (52nd)
Stanford (50th)
Louisville (55th)
Northwestern (73rd)

also WI (not ranked in AP 25) was #41

So just using your criteria (which is far from perfect), all of these teams had recruiting classes out of the top 25, yet they were each one of the 20 AQ who finished in the top 25.
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The people that use this logic usually say that the schools have a top 25 class anytime in the previous four years, so you need to broaden you search. Using that logic will knock a couple nore schools off your list.
 

Nate said:
You can't just jump in and play with the big boys. First we need to take down recruiting hotbeds like Tulane, UAB, and Wake Forest.
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Yes you can, but it depends on how many jobs,houses,cars that you can provide for a players family without getting tagged with recruiting violations by the NCAA. examples include but not limited to USC and Miami
 

I get what EG#9 is saying and I generally agree with him. I don't buy into the whole "stars" thing, but I think it's important to look at the offer lists for kids. Good programs tend to know what they are doing and if you see a bunch of good programs offering a kid, logic tells you the kid has some talent. The problem, of course, is that everyone is looking at 17-year-old through 19-year-old high school kids and sometimes the kid doesn't develop any further for a variety of reasons (physical, mental, emotional). So it's always a bit of a crapshoot. But, as I am wont to say, ain't no pony ever won the Kentucky Derby.

Football is the funniest sport in a lot of ways. You can have a team composed largely of cannon fodder and add a couple of legitimate playmakers and, if not compete for the national championship, have a damn good football team. But you need playmakers. It's nice to have a team full of assignment-sure, solid-technique guys, but that's only going to get you so far. You need impact players to get to the next level. Wisconsin has put together a nice record with solid line play composed of a broad range of talent, but when you put studs like John Clay (4 stars) and Ron Dayne (pre-star ratings, but highly recruited), you go places.

I think Kill is doing a decent job of finding solid guys who can play within his system, but there's no question we have to get bigger, stronger, and faster across-the-board and land an impact player or two if we're going to take the next step.
 

I am happy that we're working to improve our TE options. I was never high on Rabe, though I am happy he became a Gopher. Our current stock of Goodger, Plsek, Williams, and Anyawu have potential and are young. Here's hoping Aaron can come in and add to a good stable of big body options.
 


SamSquatch said:
I am happy that we're working to improve our TE options. I was never high on Rabe, though I am happy he became a Gopher. Our current stock of Goodger, Plsek, Williams, and Anyawu have potential and are young. Here's hoping Aaron can come in and add to a good stable of big body options.
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Batten is a good, but raw athlete. He's probably looked at as a potential LB or even DE.
Anyanwu could play alot of places too.

You star chasers need to realize we are not going to stockpile 4 star recruits under Kill for awhile, and maybe never. BUT this staff has shown the ability already to find guys who other programs don't want and make them good football players.
NIU is going to the orange bowl with a bunch of Kill's recruits, their QB is getting heisman buzz. Just be patient and realize most of our recruits are going to be projects that will be productive once they learn and integrate into Kill's systems.
 

Ole said:
You star chasers need to realize we are not going to stockpile 4 star recruits under Kill for awhile, and maybe never. BUT this staff has shown the ability already to find guys who other programs don't want and make them good football players.
NIU is going to the orange bowl with a bunch of Kill's recruits, their QB is getting heisman buzz. Just be patient and realize most of our recruits are going to be projects that will be productive once they learn and integrate into Kill's systems.
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Bingo.

The Gophers were 6-6 this season, a marked improvement over the last two seasons. If/when they win 7-9 games in each of the next two seasons (which I firmly believe they will with the young talent returning), and they don't land more highly touted recruits and recruiting classes for 2015 and beyond, THEN I will be concerned about this staff's inability to bring in more sought after recruits. Expecting them to land a bevy of highly sought after recruits after one 6-6 season is beyond stupid, not to mention unrealistic.
 

gopherMD said:
My point is not that 4 star players are plentiful and should be easy to recruit to Minnesota. My point is that players like Batten are not likely to make you competitive with the upper echelons of the B1G. The Gophers were manhandled by Nebraska, Michigan, Mich St, Wisconsin and even Iowa. Northwestern is a far more talented team as well as evidenced by their record and close losses to PennSt, Neb and Mich. Yes , the Gophers took big strides this year but still only won 2 B1G games. All things being equal the teams who recruit the best players win more games. Last year the Gophers recruited 4 4 star players-Harbison, McDonald, Pirsig and Hayes. I hope more talent is headed to TCF this year.
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I agree with you that if we want to be at the Michigan/tOSU level we have to really step up our recruiting. However like many have said where the program is right now I think we are recruiting about as well as we can. It's not just about getting highly recruited kids to commit we need them to stick around for 4/5 years.

Your example of 4 star players is a good one. Years when Minnesota is full of 4 star talent we should get the majority of those kids. That happened last year, plus we got Harbison. Years like this one with less in state top end talent our classes won't be as star laden.
 

gophergrad said:
I agree with you that if we want to be at the Michigan/tOSU level we have to really step up our recruiting. However like many have said where the program is right now I think we are recruiting about as well as we can. It's not just about getting highly recruited kids to commit we need them to stick around for 4/5 years.

Your example of 4 star players is a good one. Years when Minnesota is full of 4 star talent we should get the majority of those kids. That happened last year, plus we got Harbison. Years like this one with less in state top end talent our classes won't be as star laden.
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or we out execute them with recruits that know our system and make very few mistakes.
We need playmakers, no doubt, but our success here is going to depend on playing clean games and cashing in on more talented teams mistakes and executing systems pefectly.
It's a formula countless programs have used to elevate their programs above more "talent laden" ones.
 



Killjoy said:
Our GopherHole recruiting experts are again having their knickers in a twist about Kill's ability to recruit. That because they believe that Kill can't recruit because his recruiting classes are not highly ranked. It is interesting to note that the players who are taking Northern Illinois to a BCS game this year were recruited by Kill. They are actually are rated lower than the players that Kill has recruited to Minnesota. Personally, I would think that they would then maybe realize that Kill does knows more about recruiting than the recruiting services. But alas that is not the case because we are again still having this same old discussion. What does this tell us? To me it tells me that some of our GopherHole "recruiting experts" aren't really that smart. Do you think?
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While I agree with your premise, it should be noted that Northern Illinois made a BCS game playing in the MAC. The Gophers will need to win the Big Ten. So we will need a lot more talent than Northern Illinois has to consistently win in this conference. That said, I believe it is in all our best interest to wait and see how these recruits turn out. The coaches should be given their chance to coach.
 

gopherMD said:
My point is not that 4 star players are plentiful and should be easy to recruit to Minnesota. My point is that players like Batten are not likely to make you competitive with the upper echelons of the B1G. The Gophers were manhandled by Nebraska, Michigan, Mich St, Wisconsin and even Iowa. Northwestern is a far more talented team as well as evidenced by their record and close losses to PennSt, Neb and Mich. Yes , the Gophers took big strides this year but still only won 2 B1G games. All things being equal the teams who recruit the best players win more games. Last year the Gophers recruited 4 4 star players-Harbison, McDonald, Pirsig and Hayes. I hope more talent is headed to TCF this year.
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I think you aren't being consistent in this post. You are saying that we need high rated recruits to compete with the best, yet you point to Northwestern as an example of a team competing with the top echelon?

I think everyone would agree to get to the point where you are competing for Big 10 Championships every single year, you will eventually need to start bringing in a few more stars. However, we are in the process of from real bad to not as bad (where we are now) to eventually decent to good.

What you witnessed at TCF this year was much more a lack of experience than a lack of talent. You even said so by talking about McDonald. McDonald will probably be a vey good player for us, he was not an impact player last year. Yet, you talk about needing more players like him (because he is a highly recruited player). You should use that same expectation of improvement on guys like Phil Nelson, Williams, Plsek, Keith, Ekpe, etc. If those guys improve as much as you think McDonald will (I do too), then we will be a lot better.
 

I get what you're saying Ole, but I agree with sparlimb in that the hill gets a lot steeper in the Big 10 making it a "little engine that maybe can."

I think the "get the guys and mold them" can take a team so far, but if you look at the teams that are consistently good, they have more than a playmaker or two.

I am less concerned about Kill's short-term recruiting than I am with the fact his teams have not been that assignment-sure or disciplined as I thought they would be. Some of that is inexperience, but we still made a ton of bonehead mistakes this season.
 

50PoundHead said:
Football is the funniest sport in a lot of ways. You can have a team composed largely of cannon fodder and add a couple of legitimate playmakers and, if not compete for the national championship, have a damn good football team. But you need playmakers. It's nice to have a team full of assignment-sure, solid-technique guys, but that's only going to get you so far. You need impact players to get to the next level. Wisconsin has put together a nice record with solid line play composed of a broad range of talent, but when you put studs like John Clay (4 stars) and Ron Dayne (pre-star ratings, but highly recruited), you go places.
.
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I agree with your point, but Ball (and a slew of other Badger RBs who weren't as highly recruited) don't think you need a 4 star running back to be dominant at WI.
 



Batten may not play TE. He might. Anyanwu is more athlete than position player at this point. In any case, I would be happy to have Batten join the Gophs if he's shown the physical tools the coaches are looking for. He's been a target for them for awhile, and I'd be happy to see a TE body-type added.
 

I would agree with you somewhat on a guy like James White (3 stars, but fantastic offer list), but Ball was a Rivals' 4-star and had at least a half-dozen offers from FBS teams including Stanford. Gordon--who looks to be a great back-in-waiting, was also a 4-star kid. I do agree that one of the myths about Wisconsin is that they went down to the Oshkosh Crippled Chldrens' Home and took the five biggest guys and turned them into All-American lineman. Guys like Oglesby and Konz were highly-regarded and even their 3-star guys (Zeitler, Nagy, Moffit, etc.) had solid offer lists.
 

I'm getting a little off topic but I think it needs to be said that, for this years recruiting class, the perceptions of the program are based more on last years 3-9 record, then this years 6-6. Recruiting has been pushed so far forward that this years results, affect the 2014 class, far more than the 2013. I know it's tough to have patience, I expect next years class to be much better, as more kids with higher star ratings will look at us.
 

Ole said:
Batten is a good, but raw athlete. He's probably looked at as a potential LB or even DE.
Anyanwu could play alot of places too.

You star chasers need to realize we are not going to stockpile 4 star recruits under Kill for awhile, and maybe never. BUT this staff has shown the ability already to find guys who other programs don't want and make them good football players.
NIU is going to the orange bowl with a bunch of Kill's recruits, their QB is getting heisman buzz. Just be patient and realize most of our recruits are going to be projects that will be productive once they learn and integrate into Kill's systems.
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NIU did their job on the field to put themselves in position to go to the Orange Bowl because the system is set up in such in way that a number of teams rated higher had to be passed over. Based on that they may not be derserving but that is not their fault.

Do you think this NIU team composed as it is with a "bunch of Kill's recruits" and played the schedule Kill's current team did this year they would have placed themselves in a position to go to the Orange Bowl?

Not saying they can't but Kill and his staff need to recruit a whole lot better then what they did at NIU to get the program in the BCS bowl conversation.
 

scools12 said:
NIU did their job on the field to put themselves in position to go to the Orange Bowl because the system is set up in such in way that a number of teams rated higher had to be passed over. Based on that they may not be derserving but that is not their fault.

Do you think this NIU team composed as it is with a "bunch of Kill's recruits" and played the schedule Kill's current team did this year they would have placed themselves in a position to go to the Orange Bowl?

Not saying they can't but Kill and his staff need to recruit a whole lot better then what they did at NIU to get the program in the BCS bowl conversation.
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No, I'm all about giving teams like NIU a shot at big bowls like they have.
I doubt NIU would have made it through the B1G season with an 11-1 record, but they'd be pretty good IMO.
It's all about who you are competing against. From all accounts NIU fans were lukewarm on Kill's recruiting when he was there, but now think him a great recruiter as the guys he brought in developed and blossomed in their upperclass seasons.
Take a look at some of the kids he brought in, some weren't even MAC level recruits, but they are now studs. That's what i'm trying to say, this staff will bring in guys that are solid or even great athletes, put them in other positions or find a niche for them in their system and make good teams out of them. Kill left alot for Doren at NIU and he's building a similar team here, whether it works the same way won't be proven until 2014 or so, but I'm very happy with the recruiting thusfar stars or no.
 

scools12 said:
NIU did their job on the field to put themselves in position to go to the Orange Bowl because the system is set up in such in way that a number of teams rated higher had to be passed over. Based on that they may not be derserving but that is not their fault.

Do you think this NIU team composed as it is with a "bunch of Kill's recruits" and played the schedule Kill's current team did this year they would have placed themselves in a position to go to the Orange Bowl?

Not saying they can't but Kill and his staff need to recruit a whole lot better then what they did at NIU to get the program in the BCS bowl conversation.
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You are 2-3 years down the road of building the program. Kill did not have the top recruiting class in the MAC in his first year. In fact I think it was #11, but by year 3 he was top 3 in the MAC. If he starts winning those rankings will go up. I would be satisfied with middle of the Big 10 if he knows how to coach them up and they fit his schemes.
 

Yep, look it up. His first 2 classes were very suspect, his third had some nicely rated guys for the MAC, but many of their key pieces especially on D and in skill spots on O were under recruited kids.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I think you aren't being consistent in this post. You are saying that we need high rated recruits to compete with the best, yet you point to Northwestern as an example of a team competing with the top echelon?

I think everyone would agree to get to the point where you are competing for Big 10 Championships every single year, you will eventually need to start bringing in a few more stars. However, we are in the process of from real bad to not as bad (where we are now) to eventually decent to good.

What you witnessed at TCF this year was much more a lack of experience than a lack of talent. You even said so by talking about McDonald. McDonald will probably be a vey good player for us, he was not an impact player last year. Yet, you talk about needing more players like him (because he is a highly recruited player). You should use that same expectation of improvement on guys like Phil Nelson, Williams, Plsek, Keith, Ekpe, etc. If those guys improve as much as you think McDonald will (I do too), then we will be a lot better.
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I listed NU separately because the Gophers played NU fairly close as opposed to the others teams listed. That said NU has 2 playmakers in Mark and Colter that are far superior to their Gopher counterparts. Their WRs were rated the best in the B1G and their defense was also very good. They had 2 or 3 4 star recruits last year and 1 or 2 so far this year and their 2013 class is larger and is higher rated than the Gophers to this point. In short the Gophers needs to recruit some 4 star players to compete with those top tier teams. I think you can recruit 3 star OL, redshirt them and build them up with weight training so they can be solid players; Nebraska was one of the first schools to use this strategy. Skill offensive positions and defensive players need to have speed and quickness to begin with and that is where you need those higher rated players. McDonald and Harbison are the type of players I am talking about and hopefully there will be some in this years class.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Kill did not have the top recruiting class in the MAC in his first year. In fact I think it was #11, but by year 3 he was top 3 in the MAC
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Not only was his 2008 class dead last in the MAC, it was next-to-last in the entire country. Those players are the RS Srs on a team playing in a BCS bowl game next month.
 

Stars are practically meaningless when you are a program like Minnesota. 2 and 3 stars can you back in to the thick of things in the Big Ten. Then the bigger recruits start taking notice. We should not be worrying about the stars of our recruits at this point, we should be worrying about how they're being coached up, and at this point I'm cautiously optimistic about the improvement in game play I've seen over the past two years with essentially many of the same players that Brewster recruited and flushed their abilities down the drain.
 

gopherMD said:
I listed NU separately because the Gophers played NU fairly close as opposed to the others teams listed.

That said NU has 2 playmakers in Mark and Colter that are far superior to their Gopher counterparts.
Their WRs were rated the best in the B1G and their defense was also very good. They had 2 or 3 4 star recruits last year and 1 or 2 so far this year and their 2013 class is larger and is higher rated than the Gophers to this point.

In short the Gophers needs to recruit some 4 star players to compete with those top tier teams.

I think you can recruit 3 star OL, redshirt them and build them up with weight training so they can be solid players;

Nebraska was one of the first schools to use this strategy.

Skill offensive positions and defensive players need to have speed and quickness to begin with and that is where you need those higher rated players.

McDonald and Harbison are the type of players I am talking about and hopefully there will be some in this years class.
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You make little sense.
Colter and Mark were 3 star recruits.
Their passing O was awful ranked 112th nationally.
Their WR's were all 3 star recruits.
Their D was 31st in the country and gave up numerous 4th quarter comebacks.
They also won 9 games and competed with the big boys of the conference.
So basically they won alot of games with many 3 star players.
Neither of the 4 star freshmen impacted their B1G season.

They are in year 7? of Fitz's tenure there, Kill is in year 2 their recruiting SHOULD be better at this point. It's bigger because they have more scholarships this year.

So a 2 star recruit cannot be fast or have good skill? look up the top 5 offensive skill players you'll see MANY were not 4 star athletes. Including the nation's top rusher and top receiver. One who was a 2 star recruited by Kill.

Also, 4 star players can suck, it happens. 5 star players can too.
It's not a video game my man, there are many ways to build a program other than recruiting many star recruits.
 

Nate said:
The people that use this logic usually say that the schools have a top 25 class anytime in the previous four years, so you need to broaden you search. Using that logic will knock a couple nore schools off your list.
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That is exactly what I said. A top 25 class on roster. So lets check out the teams listed.
KState (26th) They don't have one on roster, their senior class was rated 27th however.
Nebraska (30th) Top 25 3 of last 4 years, worst class 28th.
Oregon State (52nd) This is one of the few that doesn't have a top 25 class.
Stanford (50th) Best class in last 4 years was 5th, worst was 26th
Louisville (55th) This is a special case because the big east is so terrible. They don't have a top 25 class, but they had the best or second best class in the big east the last 3 seasons. They did have a 29th ranked class.
Northwestern (73rd) Another team without any, again a rare feat.

So in conclusion only 4 of 20 ranked AQ teams lack a top 25 recruiting class. And I don't think the point I made about Louisville is insignificant. Also I can't believe people are still making the argument about Northern Illinois, Boise, TCU etc, winning with lowly rated classes. You compare the classes to who they are playing, not to the entire nation. For example (making these numbers up) Boise had the 50th rated class, yeah that's not great, but when they play 8 WAC teams (not anymore) who had classes between 80-110 it's a pretty big advantage.
 

And last year 5 out of 21 lacked a top 25 class. Okie St. (had a #26 class) and Wisconsin, both hover in the top 40 or so typically. Cinci...big east. And Baylor with RG3. And KSU. 2010 there was only Wisconsin, NC ST (finished 25th) and Maryland (finished 23rd). 3 out of 20.
 

gopherMD said:
I listed NU separately because the Gophers played NU fairly close as opposed to the others teams listed. That said NU has 2 playmakers in Mark and Colter that are far superior to their Gopher counterparts. Their WRs were rated the best in the B1G and their defense was also very good. They had 2 or 3 4 star recruits last year and 1 or 2 so far this year and their 2013 class is larger and is higher rated than the Gophers to this point. In short the Gophers needs to recruit some 4 star players to compete with those top tier teams. I think you can recruit 3 star OL, redshirt them and build them up with weight training so they can be solid players; Nebraska was one of the first schools to use this strategy. Skill offensive positions and defensive players need to have speed and quickness to begin with and that is where you need those higher rated players. McDonald and Harbison are the type of players I am talking about and hopefully there will be some in this years class.
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But why list NU separately? We played them closer than we played Iowa (or Michigan State), but they certainly were a better team this year than those teams. Wouldn't the same concept hold true for them, they need top notch recruiting to compete with the "big boys"?

I am not trying to argue with you, because I am usually on the other side of the debate (arguing with the "stars are meaningless" group). So I do see what you're saying.

My entire point is that some guys are better at finding good players from lesser ranks than others and I believe Kill is one of those guys. I believe Kill is one of those guys from what I've seen of our younger players. So I believe the classes will always better deeper (top to bottom). Your point that the TOP of the class needs to start getting higher, I probably agree with you. It's just that it's tough to expect MN to start bringing in those kinds of players right now. Right now, we are going to have to win some recruiting battles against the Missouri's, California's, Colorado's of the world before we can expect to win the big recruiting battles against tOSU and Michigan.
 

btowngopher said:
That is exactly what I said. A top 25 class on roster. So lets check out the teams listed.
KState (26th) They don't have one on roster, their senior class was rated 27th however.
Nebraska (30th) Top 25 3 of last 4 years, worst class 28th.
Oregon State (52nd) This is one of the few that doesn't have a top 25 class.
Stanford (50th) Best class in last 4 years was 5th, worst was 26th
Louisville (55th) This is a special case because the big east is so terrible. They don't have a top 25 class, but they had the best or second best class in the big east the last 3 seasons. They did have a 29th ranked class.
Northwestern (73rd) Another team without any, again a rare feat.

So in conclusion only 4 of 20 ranked AQ teams lack a top 25 recruiting class. And I don't think the point I made about Louisville is insignificant. Also I can't believe people are still making the argument about Northern Illinois, Boise, TCU etc, winning with lowly rated classes. You compare the classes to who they are playing, not to the entire nation. For example (making these numbers up) Boise had the 50th rated class, yeah that's not great, but when they play 8 WAC teams (not anymore) who had classes between 80-110 it's a pretty big advantage.
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But your criteria is exclusive to make your point.

Your looking at each of the teams in the top 25 this year and seeing how ALL of their classes ranked. Wouldn't it be more accurate to look at every team in the top 25 over the last 4 years and compare that with where the classes ranked?
 

gopherMD said:
I listed NU separately because the Gophers played NU fairly close as opposed to the others teams listed. That said NU has 2 playmakers in Mark and Colter that are far superior to their Gopher counterparts. Their WRs were rated the best in the B1G and their defense was also very good. They had 2 or 3 4 star recruits last year and 1 or 2 so far this year and their 2013 class is larger and is higher rated than the Gophers to this point. In short the Gophers needs to recruit some 4 star players to compete with those top tier teams. I think you can recruit 3 star OL, redshirt them and build them up with weight training so they can be solid players; Nebraska was one of the first schools to use this strategy. Skill offensive positions and defensive players need to have speed and quickness to begin with and that is where you need those higher rated players. McDonald and Harbison are the type of players I am talking about and hopefully there will be some in this years class.
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I agree with your basic point, but this is where the star-ratings fall a bit short for me because both of these guys had great sets of offers, especially Colter. Northwestern is a decent model to follow, but as has been pointed out Colter and Mark are both big-time playmakers, especially for that offense. You can recruit some under the radar guys for the plowhorse positions, but you still need playmakers. I don't necessarily care how many stars these guys have, but you are going to have to wrest some guys away from other quality programs who offer them.
 

NU lost Persa, Dunsmore and Ebert(both draft picks) so their passing attack was bound to decline but also because Colter and Mark were so effective as runners. They were 3rd in rushing offense and 3rd in scoring offense. They were 8th in passing efficiency(Mn was 12th)They were #3 in rush defense and light years ahead of last years pass defense(7th in the B1G-MN 9th). They lost 4th quarter leads to 3 of the top 4 teams in the league. They lost to Michigan on a fluke Hail Mary with 18 seconds left and to Nebraska because Mark went out in the 3rd quarter and because they were basically down to 3rd string CBs allowing Nebraska to score 2 4th quarter TDs. They were #1 in turnover differential due in part to an opportune defense. They have won mostly with 3 star players I will grant you and because some of them have turned out to be difference makers. NU loses very little and will add 4 star redshirt DLs Odenigbo and Kuhar to freshman DE Dean Lowry who was a 3 star playmaker. I did not say 2 star players cannot have speed or skill but players are rated as they are for reasons and you are more likely to be successful if you can add higher rated players. Let's hope the Gophers finish the 2013 class with some top rated players.
 

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