'Fighting Sioux' nickname debate maybe not over??

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this has nothing to do with the majority finding the name offensive. its about the minority who makes the most noise. the united states has become a nation that bends over backwards for the minority compared to using the majority vote. the tribes in north dakota have not voted and probably never will and in my mind who cares its not the gophers fight, maybe if they continue to have issues we can finally beat them again in hockey
 

badgergopher said:
So a school that is started by Irish guys, run by Irish guys, attended by Irish guys, names it's sports teams, at the time made up significantly of Irish guys, after some Irish guys that fought on the winning side of a war.

And that is the same as a school that is started by white guys, run by white guys, attended by white guys, naming their team after a people that were slaughtered in a massacre by white guys, and were killed in the largest mass execution in American history by white guys.

I'm a little surprised the difference would not be apparent to anyone.
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I wasn't getting into the thread, simply laughing at the guy who was yelling at someone for thinking ND mascot was named after Irish folk (he thought they were named after an Inf. Reg).
 

lakesgopher said:
this has nothing to do with the majority finding the name offensive. its about the minority who makes the most noise. the united states has become a nation that bends over backwards for the minority compared to using the majority vote. the tribes in north dakota have not voted and probably never will and in my mind who cares its not the gophers fight, maybe if they continue to have issues we can finally beat them again in hockey
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It took me a couple of reads to see if I'm understanding you. Maybe I still don't but I will give it a try.

Are you saying that you are okay with folks having an issue with the name; you just don't want folks being vocal about it?

Also would you please give an example or two on how the government has bent over backwards for people in the minority on issues? I believe it's the responsibility of law makers to govern and not take public opinion poles. Why? Because 9 out of 10 or too stupid to have an opinion or vote.

Here is my completely honest take. If they were protesting in my backyard against UND being named the Fighting Sioux or playing in a stadium named after racist Ralph I still wouldn't attend....I'm lazy that way. But if someone were to come into my house and take my beer away until I gave my opinion on the matter. I would say "UND should be ashamed of themselves...please give me my beer back":cool02:
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Why am I not okay with his name on the arena? Haven't you read any of rants...I mean blogs?

Let me be serious for a moment. I don't have to have a dog in the hunt to be concerned. Somethings are just wrong. I would never say that racist Ralph was not entitled to his beliefs, I would have say he should not be allowed to have those beliefs. I would never say or believe that UND should not be allowed to take his money and stadium. But wouldn't you agree...I'm allowed to have and state my opinion about the matter?
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Perhaps I should re-phrase. I think it's futile to hate the guy because his name is on the arena.

You and anyone else is perfectly able to have an opinion about the matter. I guess my point is your ire seems a little misdirected. The school didn't have to take his money.

I seem to remember when that arena was being built (before I knew more about RE's social beliefs) and I remember applauding the guy. People/students were protesting the mascot/nickname and if I recall correctly, Engelstad;

1) told the school if they ever changed the mascot he wouldn't give the school another cent, and

2) made SURE the mascot/nickname was etched in concrete in so many places on the new arena that they would have to virtually tear it down to get rid of any mention of "Fighting Sioux".

If anything, you have to admire the guy for sticking to his guns, no?

As far as him being a racist, why in the world would I get myself worked up over something that somebody ELSE believes, who he hates or loves? At the time towards his demise when he was having these parties somebody mentioned, do you really think anybody took him seriously? That anybody considered him anything more than some senile old bugger who liked to throw money around?
 


Ogee Oglethorpe said:
As far as him being a racist, why in the world would I get myself worked up over something that somebody ELSE believes, who he hates or loves? At the time towards his demise when he was having these parties somebody mentioned, do you really think anybody took him seriously? That anybody considered him anything more than some senile old bugger who liked to throw money around?
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If I were a jew and was forced to go to a birthday party that my boss was throwing for Adolf Hitler (who murdered millions of jews because they were jewish), while he paraded around in a Nazi uniform, than yes, I would take that seriously.
 

Ron Johnson Super Fan said:
If I were a jew and was forced to go to a birthday party that my boss was throwing for Adolf Hitler (who murdered millions of jews because they were jewish), while he paraded around in a Nazi uniform, than yes, I would take that seriously.
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I'd be concerned if I were an employee forced to go to ANY birthday party if that's what really happened. Can't say I've heard of too many employers forcing employees to go to parties, but I guess it happens.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Perhaps I should re-phrase. I think it's futile to hate the guy because his name is on the arena.

You and anyone else is perfectly able to have an opinion about the matter. I guess my point is your ire seems a little misdirected. The school didn't have to take his money.

I seem to remember when that arena was being built (before I knew more about RE's social beliefs) and I remember applauding the guy. People/students were protesting the mascot/nickname and if I recall correctly, Engelstad;

1) told the school if they ever changed the mascot he wouldn't give the school another cent, and

2) made SURE the mascot/nickname was etched in concrete in so many places on the new arena that they would have to virtually tear it down to get rid of any mention of "Fighting Sioux".

If anything, you have to admire the guy for sticking to his guns, no?

As far as him being a racist, why in the world would I get myself worked up over something that somebody ELSE believes, who he hates or loves? At the time towards his demise when he was having these parties somebody mentioned, do you really think anybody took him seriously? That anybody considered him anything more than some senile old bugger who liked to throw money around?
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Admiration? Huuuuh nope.

Interesting points, I respect your honesty. Correct me if I'm wrong; are you white? The reason I ask is because if you are I can better understand (not agree with) your point of view. Ralph being a racist is just some colorful old timer for you. It's just words. For the sake of brevity I'm generalizing so please give me so leeway.

I'm sure you would understand why someone of Jewish decent may not be as easy going about it as you or I might be, right? I mean we don't have any real skin in the game while they may have a gassed love one...you feel me? Now me on the other hand I understand (you don't have to be black to understand) the impact of racism....first hand. So while I'm still not gonna drive to ND (let's be honest, I don't care enough to drive to Grand Forks) I will invoke my opinion.

For the record...Ralph was a sick racist piece of excrement. If he were dying of thirst in the middle of the Las Vegas desert dressed in full Nazi cloths I would.......do everything in my power to save the sick bastered....and of course he would hear my opinions and rants all he way to the hospital (which if he is anything like my wife it would damn near kill him anyway).:cool02:
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Admiration? Huuuuh nope.

Interesting points, I respect your honesty. Correct me if I'm wrong; are you white? The reason I ask is because if you are I can better understand (not agree with) your point of view. Ralph being a racist is just some colorful old timer for you. It's just words. For the sake of brevity I'm generalizing so please give me so leeway.

I'm sure you would understand why someone of Jewish decent may not be as easy going about it as you or I might be, right? I mean we don't have any real skin in the game while they may have a gassed love one...you feel me? Now me on the other hand I understand (you don't have to be black to understand) the impact of racism....first hand. So while I'm still not gonna drive to ND (let's be honest, I don't care enough to drive to Grand Forks) I will invoke my opinion.

For the record...Ralph was a sick racist piece of excrement. If he were dying of thirst in the middle of the Las Vegas desert dressed in full Nazi cloths I would.......do everything in my power to save the sick bastered....and of course he would hear my opinions and rants all he way to the hospital (which if he is anything like my wife it would damn near kill him anyway).:cool02:
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The "admiration" comment was kind of a satirical/rhetorical one. Sorry if that didn't really come across. Hard to convey intent in the written word sometimes, eh?

I guess to clarify (hopefully my last word), the focus of my frustration on this is 90% relating to the mascot/nickname issue, with very little interest in RE, his followers, his haters, etc. I don't know much about the guy, seems like he was fairly off his rocker if most accounts were true recounting some of his behavior. Overall not exactly a man of sound mind, or at least so it seems.

I was essentially picking out one thing he did, as it related to the mascot/nickname issue; I have a level of appreciation for the fact that he contributed the money that he did and was so adamant and passionate about the school keeping it's tradition. Kind of a big "take a flying leap" to those that wanted so badly to change the school nickname. The non-conformist in me can appreciate that kind of gesture. Put that logo embedded in concrete in SOOOOO many places on that arena that it would be virtually impossible to ignore.

The irony of this is I actually got my BS from NDSU (arch rivals with UND) and I should be revelling in this controversy but I'm not. I think it's ridiculous and embarassing. Period.
 



Couple of things here.

1. Englestad built the arena, but didn't donate it. It's run by a group set up by his estate, and the school pays a dollar a year or some such thing to use it. That's why they sell beer, much like Gopher games at the dome. It's technically off-campus.

2. Old Ralph was most definitely a racist. The Hitler parties got him the largest fine ever at that time from the Nevada gaming commission. And considering that casino owners haven't exactly been the most upstanding citizens, that's saying something.

3. The notion that the tribes are against the name is not entirely accurate. Spirit Lake (northern part of the state, near Devils Lake) did vote, and voted in favor of the logo. Standing Rock's leaders have never allowed the people as a whole to vote. The leaders are against the name, but it's been theorized that the population of the reservation as a whole would vote as Spirit Lake did, in favor of the name, which would embarass the leaders, which is why no vote has been taken.

4. All of this is pretty much irrelevant. Whether or not the NCAA is being consistent (considering Florida State, Illinois, Utah, Central Michigan, etc.) is not the issue. The issue is that the NCAA is a private organization that sets its own rules, and UND does not have to be a member if they don't want to follow said rules. Much like when Shattuck-St. Marys pulled their hockey program from the MSHSL because they didn't want to follow the limitation on games, and went to a junior program, UND could go play in some minor hockey league, and move their other teams to the NAIA or something. If you want to be part of the NCAA, or any other organization, you abide by their rules. It's that simple.
 


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