'Fighting Sioux' nickname debate maybe not over??

Donate To GopherHole

This is elitist posturing on the part of the NCAA. "Fighting Sioux" is no more racist than "Fighting Irish," - or "Spartans" being racist re the Greeks. It's actually a tribute to the bravery of the Sioux - who, after all, fought a 100-year war with the Ojibway. I would like to see a poll on this issue with the six per cent of North Dakotans who are Indian - or better yet, a poll of the tiny fraction of the six per cent who are full bloods. You can have tribal membership with quarter blood - a couple of friends of mine are quarter bloods and in the larger Sioux nation (Lakota), but don't live in North Dakota. They're not fond of "Redskins" as a team name, but are not uncomfortable at all with "Fighting Sioux."
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
This is elitist posturing on the part of the NCAA. "Fighting Sioux" is no more racist than "Fighting Irish," - or "Spartans" being racist re the Greeks. It's actually a tribute to the bravery of the Sioux - who, after all, fought a 100-year war with the Ojibway. I would like to see a poll on this issue with the six per cent of North Dakotans who are Indian - or better yet, a poll of the tiny fraction of the six per cent who are full bloods. You can have tribal membership with quarter blood - a couple of friends of mine are quarter bloods and in the larger Sioux nation (Lakota), but don't live in North Dakota. They're not fond of "Redskins" as a team name, but are not uncomfortable at all with "Fighting Sioux."
Click to expand...

I give you an F in political correctness but A for your willingness to talk about a highly emotional issue in a rational honest way.
 

I remember watching the protest on TV when I lived in Grand Forks. It was always the same thing, one white guy in a $1,500 suit and 22 Native Americans shot in angles that made them full up the screen.

These tribes get anything they want from the school. They have a much easier time getting in, the get much better financial aid. They either don't understand, or don't want to understand, they are being celebrated not mocked.

My sister got her LPN from a tribal school, she said it was 12 months of hearing about how the white man is the devil and about how Natives are being held down. They didn't want to file her financial aid because she didn't hit the preferred deadline. They don't her they normal only file after this dead line for tribal members. At her graduation the guest speaker told the crowd that genetically engineered crow was evil and how the white man was committing acts against God himself. These people will b$$ch about anything, and they have attorneys that have new cars to buy and their third wives to support.

I've had professors here in Omaha that have tried to cover this. After talking about how the government houses on the rez can't be build with metal anymore because the people would rip out their own pipes for the money, and how Natives are most likely to be killed in a violent crime by someone of their own race; I would say this is what leads to a negative image NOT the Fighting Sioux. I would always be told I don't understand the pain because I'm white. Twice I was told I was so bias that I couldn't see I was racist. Only problem with that my mom is a member of the Chippewa.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
This is elitist posturing on the part of the NCAA. "Fighting Sioux" is no more racist than "Fighting Irish," - or "Spartans" being racist re the Greeks. It's actually a tribute to the bravery of the Sioux - who, after all, fought a 100-year war with the Ojibway. I would like to see a poll on this issue with the six per cent of North Dakotans who are Indian - or better yet, a poll of the tiny fraction of the six per cent who are full bloods. You can have tribal membership with quarter blood - a couple of friends of mine are quarter bloods and in the larger Sioux nation (Lakota), but don't live in North Dakota. They're not fond of "Redskins" as a team name, but are not uncomfortable at all with "Fighting Sioux."
Click to expand...

This pretty much echoes my sentiments exactly. Since when is it racist to call something by its name? I can understand the problem with Redskins - it's a pejorative, divisive word used to derisively mock Native Americans. But Sioux is the name of a nation of peoples! Is it because the word "Sioux" is a French transliteration imposed upon them by English-speaking people? Would people be less up in arms if the school called itself the UND Fighting Isáŋyathi?
 


Great Plains Gopher said:
This is elitist posturing on the part of the NCAA. "Fighting Sioux" is no more racist than "Fighting Irish," - or "Spartans" being racist re the Greeks. It's actually a tribute to the bravery of the Sioux - who, after all, fought a 100-year war with the Ojibway. I would like to see a poll on this issue with the six per cent of North Dakotans who are Indian - or better yet, a poll of the tiny fraction of the six per cent who are full bloods. You can have tribal membership with quarter blood - a couple of friends of mine are quarter bloods and in the larger Sioux nation (Lakota), but don't live in North Dakota. They're not fond of "Redskins" as a team name, but are not uncomfortable at all with "Fighting Sioux."
Click to expand...

Nope, not buying it. The school allows the hockey team to play in an arena named after a racist. The name by itself...maybe. Put the two together..nope.
 

dpodoll68 said:
This pretty much echoes my sentiments exactly. Since when is it racist to call something by its name? I can understand the problem with Redskins - it's a pejorative, divisive word used to derisively mock Native Americans. But Sioux is the name of a nation of peoples! Is it because the word "Sioux" is a French transliteration imposed upon them by English-speaking people? Would people be less up in arms if the school called itself the UND Fighting Isáŋyathi?
Click to expand...

Sooooooo, whats your take on the arena named after a guy who celebrates the birthday of Adolph Hitler? You know the guy who killed 6 million Jews by first starving them to death, then shooting them and when that proved to be too slow gasing them in the shower. Did I forget to mention the experiments?

Folks can sure turn a blind eye when it's convenient.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Sooooooo, whats your take on the arena named after a guy who celebrates the birthday of Adolph Hitler? You know the guy who killed 6 million Jews by first starving them to death, then shooting them and when that proved to be too slow gasing them in the shower. Did I forget to mention the experiments?

Folks can sure turn a blind eye when it's convenient.
Click to expand...

He wasn't Adolf Hitler. He may have been sympathetic to Hitler, but he wasn't the man himself.

It's not as though UND named the arena after him to honor him and everything he stood for. It was named after him because he donated $100 million + to build it. You can complain that UND compromised their principles and took the money, but I'm guessing that most athletic programs will take $100 million + regardless of the blood behind it (not that they would admit that), although most never even get the chance to accept a gift that large.

But, aside from all that - none of this has anything to do with the name of the school's athletic teams. UND has been known as the Fighting Sioux since the year Engelstad was born. How are you going to attribute that name to an 8-month-old infant?

Plus, he doesn't celebrate anything - he's been dead for years.
 

gaunt006 said:
I remember watching the protest on TV when I lived in Grand Forks. It was always the same thing, one white guy in a $1,500 suit and 22 Native Americans shot in angles that made them full up the screen.

These tribes get anything they want from the school. They have a much easier time getting in, the get much better financial aid. They either don't understand, or don't want to understand, they are being celebrated not mocked.

My sister got her LPN from a tribal school, she said it was 12 months of hearing about how the white man is the devil and about how Natives are being held down. They didn't want to file her financial aid because she didn't hit the preferred deadline. They don't her they normal only file after this dead line for tribal members. At her graduation the guest speaker told the crowd that genetically engineered crow was evil and how the white man was committing acts against God himself. These people will b$$ch about anything, and they have attorneys that have new cars to buy and their third wives to support.

I've had professors here in Omaha that have tried to cover this. After talking about how the government houses on the rez can't be build with metal anymore because the people would rip out their own pipes for the money, and how Natives are most likely to be killed in a violent crime by someone of their own race; I would say this is what leads to a negative image NOT the Fighting Sioux. I would always be told I don't understand the pain because I'm white. Twice I was told I was so bias that I couldn't see I was racist. Only problem with that my mom is a member of the Chippewa.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you don't want to play this game.

You know the game where you list the bad things that a particular group has done. I'm pretty sure the list of what has been done too Native Americans would be much longer.
 



dpodoll68 said:
He wasn't Adolf Hitler. He may have been sympathetic to Hitler, but he wasn't the man himself.

It's not as though UND named the arena after him to honor him and everything he stood for. It was named after him because he donated $100 million + to build it. You can complain that UND compromised their principles and took the money, but I'm guessing that most athletic programs will take $100 million + regardless of the blood behind it (not that they would admit that), although most never even get the chance to accept a gift that large.

But, aside from all that - none of this has anything to do with the name of the school's athletic teams. UND has been known as the Fighting Sioux since the year Engelstad was born. How are you going to attribute that name to an 8-month-old infant?

Plus, he doesn't celebrate anything - he's been dead for years.
Click to expand...

Fair points. Question, are you pro or con about the supposed Mosque being built at ground zero?

I have no doubt there are public institutions in american named after some of the most vile people, it doesn't make it right however.

The only reason I bought any of this up is because some people like yourself are okay with Ralph's name on the arena but you have an issue with someone who isn't okay with the name fighting sioux? Sounds kinda hypocritcal to me.

The arena didn't get Ralph's name when he was 8, it got it after his tribute parties to the worst murder in modern history.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Sooooooo, whats your take on the arena named after a guy who celebrates the birthday of Adolph Hitler? You know the guy who killed 6 million Jews by first starving them to death, then shooting them and when that proved to be too slow gasing them in the shower. Did I forget to mention the experiments?

Folks can sure turn a blind eye when it's convenient.
Click to expand...

And some people can't accept the fact that these are two different issues, i.e. the name of the arena and the school's nickname. Yet they think by bringing them together it makes their argument stronger.
 

Killjoy said:
And some people can't accept the fact that these are two different issues, i.e. the name of the arena and the school's nickname. Yet they think by bringing them together it makes their argument stronger.
Click to expand...

Funny, I don't recall you making the same argument to the person who blogged about native americans being responsible for killing each other and all the other 'stuff" he mentioned? I certainly understand why you would want to keep it a separate issue.

My point is simple, if I'm to believe that the good folks of North Dakota (if applicable) have such concern and respect for people.....that stadium gives me pause for concern. I don't believe them.

I would have more respect for them if they simply stated that they could care less would a person did, they wanted the building. Or, they don't care what someone thinks of the name "fighting Sioux" they find it kinda cool.
 

Killjoy said:
And some people can't accept the fact that these are two different issues, i.e. the name of the arena and the school's nickname. Yet they think by bringing them together it makes their argument stronger.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. Sportsfan sure has a hatred for ole Ralph that he cant seem to get over.

And the Fighting Sioux nickname HONORS the tribe that settled the area. Just like the Vikings name HONORS the Viking tribes which came to the area. Just like the Fighting Irish name HONORS the Irish. If the Fighting Sioux should have to change their name, the Fighting Irish should as well? How is it any different? I am sure UND does more for the Sioux nation and has a hight percentage of students of Sioux heritage than Notre Dame does of Irish decent.
 



dpodoll68 said:
This pretty much echoes my sentiments exactly. Since when is it racist to call something by its name? I can understand the problem with Redskins - it's a pejorative, divisive word used to derisively mock Native Americans. But Sioux is the name of a nation of peoples! Is it because the word "Sioux" is a French transliteration imposed upon them by English-speaking people? Would people be less up in arms if the school called itself the UND Fighting Isáŋyathi?
Click to expand...

I Know I heard once that "Redskins" is actually a term first used by the Native Americans themselves.
 

DLguy said:
I completely agree. Sportsfan sure has a hatred for ole Ralph that he cant seem to get over.

And the Fighting Sioux nickname HONORS the tribe that settled the area. Just like the Vikings name HONORS the Viking tribes which came to the area. Just like the Fighting Irish name HONORS the Irish. If the Fighting Sioux should have to change their name, the Fighting Irish should as well? How is it any different? I am sure UND does more for the Sioux nation and has a hight percentage of students of Sioux heritage than Notre Dame does of Irish decent.
Click to expand...


Why don't you do a little research on the Fighting Irish nickname. My goodness - this has to be the dumbest rationality I've ever seen in regards to that nickname.

The nickname Fighting Irish was created to honor an Army regiment that fought in the North during the Civil War. The nickname of the regiment was Fighting Irish - one of the first presidents of Notre Dame was a chaplain in that Fighting Irish regiment.

The name is in no way connected to the broad group of people with Irish heritage.

Get a clue.
 

DLguy said:
I completely agree. Sportsfan sure has a hatred for ole Ralph that he cant seem to get over.
Click to expand...

Hard to imagine how someone could develop a hatred for a person that would throw gigantic posthumous birthday bashes for Adolf Hitler in Las Vegas, dress in full Nazi regalia, and force his Jewish employees to attend. Its amazing that such a person could be despised.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I Know I heard once that "Redskins" is actually a term first used by the Native Americans themselves.
Click to expand...

And black people once referred to themselves as all sorts of names that would be considered offensive today. It doesn't make using "Redskins" any less offensive.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
You're smarter than this. And if you're not...I know I am.

I notice you didn't address the Hockey arena named after the racist? I understand, you're still trying to figure out how to spin that one? And since we're on the topic, how are the programs for the Jewish people? What catogories/programs do they lead in for them? I know it can get kind of expensive buying folks off to appear.....concerned.
Click to expand...

Wow, I didn't think stating some facts about UND and how some Native Americans are proud to be affiliated with the university and honored by the Fighting Sioux nickname would get someone so cranked up. Most people I talk to don't realize the connections the university has to Native Americans from all over the country and in particular their INMED (Indians in Medicine) program. I can understand you despising Ralph E. - his judgement and actions have been a topic of conversation for a long time but was not the subject of the thread and therefore I didn't bother commenting on it. As for the rest of your comments, you're smarter than that.
 

TheManfromtheSouth said:
Why don't you do a little research on the Fighting Irish nickname. My goodness - this has to be the dumbest rationality I've ever seen in regards to that nickname.

The nickname Fighting Irish was created to honor an Army regiment that fought in the North during the Civil War. The nickname of the regiment was Fighting Irish - one of the first presidents of Notre Dame was a chaplain in that Fighting Irish regiment.

The name is in no way connected to the broad group of people with Irish heritage.

Get a clue.
Click to expand...

Well, what do you know? The 69th Infantry Regiment was initially composed entirely of Irish-Americans. Hence, the name "Fighting Irish" was based after a group of Irish people, which is more or less exactly what he said. In fact, it is quite (and entirely) connected to the broad group of people with Irish heritage.

Derp derp derp.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Well, what do you know? The 69th Infantry Regiment was initially composed entirely of Irish-Americans. Hence, the name "Fighting Irish" was based after a group of Irish people, which is more or less exactly what he said. In fact, it is quite (and entirely) connected to the broad group of people with Irish heritage.

Derp derp derp.
Click to expand...

Not only that, but the god d@mn mascot is an Irish guy with his fists in the air? Are we suppose to see this mascot and think "Infantry Regiment". And to think that guy had the audacity to tell someone to "get a clue" only because he wikipedia'd Notre Dame's mascot and found that out. Good stuff you can only find on GH.

For said poster to win the argument it would have to be the Notre Dame Fighting 69th Infantry Regiment.
 

46Gophers said:
Wow, I didn't think stating some facts about UND and how some Native Americans are proud to be affiliated with the university and honored by the Fighting Sioux nickname would get someone so cranked up. Most people I talk to don't realize the connections the university has to Native Americans from all over the country and in particular their INMED (Indians in Medicine) program. I can understand you despising Ralph E. - his judgement and actions have been a topic of conversation for a long time but was not the subject of the thread and therefore I didn't bother commenting on it. As for the rest of your comments, you're smarter than that.
Click to expand...

My point remains but I'm really not upset at all, just making a point. And I certainly wouldn't be upset with you because you were only stating your opinion. While it differs from mine IMO it's not an unreasonable opinion to have.

I can see where one would think I was upset, I used capitalization to emphasize certain words.:)
 

Time for Sue fans to let go of this one. Actually it's long past time. And I understand the issue, my high school's name having been changed while I was there. It's an emotional thing, but sometimes it's time to close the book.
 

sonnygarcia said:
Not only that, but the god d@mn mascot is an Irish guy with his fists in the air? Are we suppose to see this mascot and think "Infantry Regiment". And to think that guy had the audacity to tell someone to "get a clue" only because he wikipedia'd Notre Dame's mascot and found that out. Good stuff you can only find on GH.

For said poster to win the argument it would have to be the Notre Dame Fighting 69th Infantry Regiment.
Click to expand...

So a school that is started by Irish guys, run by Irish guys, attended by Irish guys, names it's sports teams, at the time made up significantly of Irish guys, after some Irish guys that fought on the winning side of a war.

And that is the same as a school that is started by white guys, run by white guys, attended by white guys, naming their team after a people that were slaughtered in a massacre by white guys, and were killed in the largest mass execution in American history by white guys.

I'm a little surprised the difference would not be apparent to anyone.
 

My sister was a student at UND in the '70's. According to her there was an IM hoops team composed of American Indians named "The Norwegians." Pretty clever in my book.
 

They should change their name to the Pillaging Settlers just to spite the Native Tribe that wouldn't let them keep Sioux.
 

Killjoy said:
My wife is a Norwegian citizen and is tired of being stereotyped as a sea roving marauder. According to her, all they were trying to do was establish trade routes. When I suggested to her that what they seem to be trading was your life for all your goods, she replied that was from the bad press from people who did not want free trade.

What is one to believe?
Click to expand...

I've mentioned this before too but apparently the protesters don't see any parallel. I think it's legit. Vikings are depicted in a very poor light, very negatively, and I think it's time to put a stop to it.
 


Rosemountian said:
They should change their name to the Pillaging Settlers just to spite the Native Tribe that wouldn't let them keep Sioux.
Click to expand...

Actually I love the idea, can anybody think of anyone meaner and ruthless than the settlers?

The mascott could throw blankets infected with small pox into the stands. The cheer leaders could be dressed as slaves with chains around their necks (the bondage thing does sound kind of sexy).

And since homage to religion plays a large part, maybe the dance team could dress up as sexy nuns and everytime the home team scores someone dressed up as Jesus could grab the microphone and scream "thank me....Jesus!:clap:
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Fair points. Question, are you pro or con about the supposed Mosque being built at ground zero?

I have no doubt there are public institutions in american named after some of the most vile people, it doesn't make it right however.

The only reason I bought any of this up is because some people like yourself are okay with Ralph's name on the arena but you have an issue with someone who isn't okay with the name fighting sioux? Sounds kinda hypocritcal to me.

The arena didn't get Ralph's name when he was 8, it got it after his tribute parties to the worst murder in modern history.
Click to expand...

I don't get this. Why are you not okay with the guy's name on the arena? He paid for it. Like dpo said, if you don't like it, take it up with the school. They took his money, and were glad to do it. I would imagine there are hundreds of buildings in this country that bare the name of far worse people than Ralph Engelstad.

Engelstad didn't force them to take his $100M. Kind of hard to blame him for his name being on the arena. If they hate it that much, why don't they get somebody to donate another $150M to fix the problem.

People just look for things to bother themselves about. It's amazing the number of people who will engage in an argument such as this one who have no dog in the fight. Classic. A bunch of (likely) non-Native American University of Minnesota sports fans arguing passionately on both sides of the merits of the mascot for the University of North Dakota. Really? We aren't more busy than this?
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I don't get this. Why are you not okay with the guy's name on the arena? He paid for it. Like dpo said, if you don't like it, take it up with the school. They took his money, and were glad to do it. I would imagine there are hundreds of buildings in this country that bare the name of far worse people than Ralph Engelstad.

Engelstad didn't force them to take his $100M. Kind of hard to blame him for his name being on the arena. If they hate it that much, why don't they get somebody to donate another $150M to fix the problem.

People just look for things to bother themselves about. It's amazing the number of people who will engage in an argument such as this one who have no dog in the fight. Classic. A bunch of (likely) non-Native American University of Minnesota sports fans arguing passionately on both sides of the merits of the mascot for the University of North Dakota. Really? We aren't more busy than this?
Click to expand...

Why am I not okay with his name on the arena? Haven't you read any of rants...I mean blogs?

Let me be serious for a moment. I don't have to have a dog in the hunt to be concerned. Somethings are just wrong. I would never say that racist Ralph was not entitled to his beliefs, I would have say he should not be allowed to have those beliefs. I would never say or believe that UND should not be allowed to take his money and stadium. But wouldn't you agree...I'm allowed to have and state my opinion about the matter?
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom