Doogie: Blowout at Purdue puts Gophers among top laughingstocks

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"Since the start of the 2008 season, the Wolverines and Gophers have both gone through multiple systems and coaches and share the same number of conference wins (eight). But with a competent coaching staff that fully utilized the many weeks of workouts, the spring practices, training camp and the first six weeks of the season, Michigan will finish the season with nine wins or more."

Michigan is a valid benchmark for Minnesota? There's a realistic expectation. If you want a stretch compare Kill to Holtz at S Carolina, 0-11 his first year. Whatever.
 

The 2008 Michigan team had a ton of talent, just the way Michigan teams always have a ton of talent. Does it surprise anyone that Michigan could just plug in a different coach and be right back competing? rich rod was a bad coach for the Michigan situation and culture. But, nothing really changed in Ann Arbor during his brief stay there. Hoak is more "Michigan-esque" and all the talent he needed was right there in place for the 2011 season.

That is not the case here in Minneapolis in 2011. You can not compare these two programs in any way shape or form. You know that doogie...don't you? It's really kind of an absurd comparison/contrast of fortunes of the two programs.
 

imthewalrus: my bad for attempting to raise the bar, and oh by the way, Michigan isn't exactly LSU over the last few years. In fact, '08-'10, MN had more Big Ten wins. There was still enough experience returning in August -- along the D-line, linebackers, defensive backs, four offensive lineman, one stud WR, one good TE, two capable RBs -- that they shouldn't be getting embarrassed like this. Now it makes sense to play the younger guys, but vs. NMSU, etc., those experienced guys should've allowed them to win. The comparison I made was Michigan's guys going through multiple systems, coaches, yet sitting here at 6-0, with a realistic shot to play for the Big Ten championship.

"all the talent he needed was right there" ... they are trying to implement a pro-style offense, but are smart enough to scheme to Robinson's strengths. Also helps that he can make a ton of plays on his own, but how many other difference-makers do they have on offense?

On defense, they have good players, but no stars (that from two Michigan beat reporters I corresponded with two weeks leading into the game vs. MN).

We'll have to agree to disagree on all "the talent he needed was right there."
 

How many of our guys start for Michigan? Boom!!! Poof
 


Texas-Gopher said:
"Since the start of the 2008 season, the Wolverines and Gophers have both gone through multiple systems and coaches and share the same number of conference wins (eight). But with a competent coaching staff that fully utilized the many weeks of workouts, the spring practices, training camp and the first six weeks of the season, Michigan will finish the season with nine wins or more."

Michigan is a valid benchmark for Minnesota? There's a realistic expectation. If you want a stretch compare Kill to Holtz at S Carolina, 0-11 his first year. Whatever.
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Nice cherry picked year. The following year was better at South Carolina. His first coaching year he had a better record than Kill can achieve this year. He went 2-2 in conference at William and Mary. Not that that matters. But, if you compare honestly the results, Kill is not performing to expectations. He doesn't get a free pass for showing up. He was hired to start changing things. Michigan is as good a benchmark as any. Instead of passing them when they were down, we failed to get it done. They are still the benchmark. Just because you fail to reach it, does not mean they are to be thrown away. Indiana is a benchmark for us. Can we pass them by?????? Or is the bar still too high???????

Why grab at some meaningless absurd figure to point out that Lou Holtz had a bad season. The season before he became their head coach they went 1-10. Yes, even the mighty can fail. To err is ..... wait for it..... human. But, Lou Holtz was the real deal. We all knew that if the Golden Dome called, he would answer. It was common enough knowledge that the non Gopher world understood this, but not we Minnesotans. We put our collective head in the sand and hoped it wouldn't happen. Well, when it did, OMG, that traitor!!! Nothing of the sort. He got his dream job and look what it did for him. 100-30-2. Kill is not enjoying his job. Well, that means he probably isn't putting in the proper effort to become 100-30-2 at Minnesota. Do you see why I don't think he belongs. There is not a good fit here. He is a decent coach who is not happy about being here.

The guy did this for a better paycheck. Ding ding ding. He has no heart for the program. He will work hard for his money, but he has no heart for the program. This isn't his Notre Dame
 

Oneoldgopher said:
But, Lou Holtz was the real deal.
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And what do Arkansas, Minnesota, Notre Dame and South Carolina all have in common?

The year after Holtz left, each and every program listed faced NCAA sanctions.

Please don't use him as your barometer.
 

Set the bar all you want.You can't not compare Minnesota and Michigan football.They are in a different universe.
 

Blackhammer said:
Set the bar all you want.You can't not compare Minnesota and Michigan football.They are in a different universe.
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Michigan's recruiting rankings per Rivals. I know how people feel about Rivals, but they have the easiest DB for me to find access.

2011 - 21 Minnesota (not listed in top 50)
2010 - 20 Minnesota (not listed in top 50)
2009 - 8 Minnesota 39
2008 - 10 Minnesota 17

Yup...pretty much comparable talent. I'm not going to take the time to figure out the number of SR, JR, So, FR and RS FR on the team.
 



Issue w/ Rivals rankings is the influence coaches have to get said rankings switched. But agree, looking at the other offers those kids had compared to MN's kids, they have better athletes.

My point is that they are not in a different stratosphere like others are suggesting... and that they have had to deal with a lot of adversity since January too, and in fact, just as much, if not more, than the Gophers' players. Yet, they are doing just fine.

I just can't explain being down 6 touchdowns to Purdue. Lose, yes. Destroyed, no.
 

My point is that they are not in a different stratosphere like others are suggesting...

Who starts for Michigan on this roster?
 

Oneoldgopher said:
Nice cherry picked year. The following year was better at South Carolina. His first coaching year he had a better record than Kill can achieve this year. He went 2-2 in conference at William and Mary. Not that that matters. But, if you compare honestly the results, Kill is not performing to expectations. He doesn't get a free pass for showing up. He was hired to start changing things. Michigan is as good a benchmark as any. Instead of passing them when they were down, we failed to get it done. They are still the benchmark. Just because you fail to reach it, does not mean they are to be thrown away. Indiana is a benchmark for us. Can we pass them by?????? Or is the bar still too high???????

Why grab at some meaningless absurd figure to point out that Lou Holtz had a bad season. The season before he became their head coach they went 1-10. Yes, even the mighty can fail. To err is ..... wait for it..... human. But, Lou Holtz was the real deal. We all knew that if the Golden Dome called, he would answer. It was common enough knowledge that the non Gopher world understood this, but not we Minnesotans. We put our collective head in the sand and hoped it wouldn't happen. Well, when it did, OMG, that traitor!!! Nothing of the sort. He got his dream job and look what it did for him. 100-30-2. Kill is not enjoying his job. Well, that means he probably isn't putting in the proper effort to become 100-30-2 at Minnesota. Do you see why I don't think he belongs. There is not a good fit here. He is a decent coach who is not happy about being here.

The guy did this for a better paycheck. Ding ding ding. He has no heart for the program. He will work hard for his money, but he has no heart for the program. This isn't his Notre Dame
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My point was that the Michigan comparison was bogus, or in other words an unreasonable stretch to try and embarrass Kill. I offered that I could make just as unreasonable A STRETCH to make Kill look good.

So you agree with me, it's a terrible comparison, even though you're lacking in reading comprehension and/or my point was unclear. The point remains, if you're looking for a valid comparison to Minnesota Michigan is not it, anymore than comparing Kill to Holtz, Rockne or Bear Bryant. But don't let that stand in the way of your agenda.
 

Texas-Gopher: not trying to embarrass anyone. The reason for this ineptitude is all-encompassing, full of layers.
 



akgopher said:
My point is that they are not in a different stratosphere like others are suggesting...

Who starts for Michigan on this roster?
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Lair as the No. 2 TE... McKnight... Royston... Tinsley, although maybe not at MLB. Stoudermire would certainly be contributing (I know, he's hurt), probably as a slot WR and KR. Possibly Kirksey and Wynn. Gray would be contributing in some form as well, obviously not at QB w/ Robinson present. Also don't discount Bennett getting run as a 3rd-down back because he's a good blocker and pass-catcher.
 

You are trying for a cheap slam at Kill doogie, and you media wanna be's are all pretty much piling on.

It looks as though it is time to start calling out the media typers, blow-drys and media wanna be's when they start doing their cheap little numbers.

Let's have at it media members. Come on over to GOPHERHOLE and let's do a little scrimmaging about what you people are trying to pass off. You know...we can toss some ideas around and take a good look at what you people are trying to do. It might be kind of fun doogieman. Let's have some debates. Let's see if you can stand the test of good, old fashioned contrast? Are you up for it doogster?
 

Doogie said:
Lair as the No. 2 TE... McKnight... Royston... Tinsley, although maybe not at MLB. Stoudermire would certainly be contributing (I know, he's hurt), probably as a slot WR and KR. Possibly Kirksey and Wynn. Gray would be contributing in some form as well, obviously not at QB w/ Robinson present. Also don't discount Bennett getting run as a 3rd-down back because he's a good blocker and pass-catcher.
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Non of the bolded would be starting. Contributing maybe but I think that's the point most people are trying to make. Most of Michigan's starters are far better than ours and most of our starters would be in contributing roles not significant ones. Not an excuse for the embarrassment however.
 

Doogie said:
Texas-Gopher: not trying to embarrass anyone. The reason for this ineptitude is all-encompassing, full of layers.
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Look, I'm not the most football savvy guy in the world, but I think it's generally understood that when a new coach takes over, even with a program that is successful like a well oiled machine, you can expect a drop off for a couple years. Even if a high quality coach is hired. So what should we expect with Minnesota? Did we get god's gift to coaching? As much as I like Kill I have no delusions that he's the second coming of anyone (I'll hope though). Can we expect over night success? With the state this program was in, come on. So let's take a guy that appears to be a quality coach, put him in one of the worst environments in college football, then sh!t all over him after 6 games (we didn't even wait that long, did we).

Nope, not me. Check back in a couple years.
 

Doogie said:
imthewalrus: my bad for attempting to raise the bar, and oh by the way, Michigan isn't exactly LSU over the last few years. In fact, '08-'10, MN had more Big Ten wins. There was still enough experience returning in August -- along the D-line, linebackers, defensive backs, four offensive lineman, one stud WR, one good TE, two capable RBs -- that they shouldn't be getting embarrassed like this. Now it makes sense to play the younger guys, but vs. NMSU, etc., those experienced guys should've allowed them to win. The comparison I made was Michigan's guys going through multiple systems, coaches, yet sitting here at 6-0, with a realistic shot to play for the Big Ten championship.

"all the talent he needed was right there" ... they are trying to implement a pro-style offense, but are smart enough to scheme to Robinson's strengths. Also helps that he can make a ton of plays on his own, but how many other difference-makers do they have on offense?

On defense, they have good players, but no stars (that from two Michigan beat reporters I corresponded with two weeks leading into the game vs. MN).

We'll have to agree to disagree on all "the talent he needed was right there."
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Well stated, this should not be happening, the talent isn't good enough to compete for a Big Ten title, but it isn't the worst in college football like they have been playing. I'm pointing my finger at the coaching staff.

Part of the coaching staff's responsibility it to motivate the players, bringing out the fact the Alverez ran off x numbers of players isn't my idea of doing that. They are reaping what they sow, sad and completely unprofessional.
 

doogieman: Even though rich rod was an idiot at Michigan, did he subject the Michigan players to 6 different coordinators? How many assistant coaching changes did that rich rod dude have? How many different defenses? How many different offenses?

With the kind of players that Michigan has ALWAYS recruited on defense, just with the youngsters Lloyd Carr had stockpiled Michigan with, they should always have been able to put a decent d-line together, have decent lb's and db's. rich rod was an idiot, but even he certainly recruited defensive players with lots of potential. There were players there. With the points Michigan can put on the board, even having an average Big Ten defense should win a LOT of games. Over the decades, Michigan has had, still does have and always will have an above averag defense.

The same with skill players. The same with offensive linemen.

You try to make a case for Minnesota players cracking the 2 or 3 deep depth chart for Michigan. Well, how many times will the Michigan starters lose to their 2 or 3 deep players? You've been playing too many football video games doogieman.


Our returning Minnesota athletes had been SO abused and confused and NOT coached that constant stream of coordinators and coaches and offenses and defenses under brewball was pretty much the same as institutional abuse and misuse of these young college kids. Then brewster was fired mid-season...Horton took over and still more changes were coming...

Finally, badger joel macturi brought in a new coach, a new staff and a new offense and a new defense just to keep the retruning players "on their toes..."

Did Hoke have 22 returning players academically inelegible when he arrived?

Man, don't try to feed people the stuff you are trying to feed people doogie. People have eyes and have been following the mess here in Minneapolis during the brewball era.
 

Doogie said:
Lair as the No. 2 TE... McKnight... Royston... Tinsley, although maybe not at MLB. Stoudermire would certainly be contributing (I know, he's hurt), probably as a slot WR and KR. Possibly Kirksey and Wynn. Gray would be contributing in some form as well, obviously not at QB w/ Robinson present. Also don't discount Bennett getting run as a 3rd-down back because he's a good blocker and pass-catcher.
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Starters Doogie, not role players. McKnight- not this year! Royston- stretch, same with Tinsley. Kirksey can't start here. The answer, a candid, honest one that doesn't protect your column is ZERO!! Look at your language Doogie, timid offerings of contributors. Not one guy on this roster starts in Ann Arbor.
 

akgopher: you're underestimating the skill-set of some of those guys, and overvaluing some of Michigan's guys. Royston is a good player who will make $$ somewhere next year. Same goes for McKnight. Bennett is a very good blocker and receiver, so would definitely see time.

Just because a guy starts doesn't mean he's in all of the time. Count snaps played. All the guys I mentioned would get plenty of snaps.
 

imthewalrus said:
doogieman: Even though rich rod was an idiot at Michigan, did he subject the Michigan players to 6 different coordinators? How many assistant coaching changes did that rich rod dude have? How many different defenses? How many different offenses?

Man, these Minnesota athletes were SO abused and confused and NOT coached that constant stream of coordinators and coaches and offenses and defenses under brewball was pretty much the same as institutional abuse and misuse of young college kids.

And then, badger joel macturi brought in a new coach, a new staff and a new offense and a new defense just to keep the retruning players "on their toes..."

Did Hoke have 22 returning player academically inelegible when he arrived?

Man, don't try to feed people the stuff you are trying to feed people doogie.
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I hear you, but at what point does the constant stream reasoning end? They did have time with the coaches Jan.-Mar. with those 6.a.m. conditioning gatherings. Then, spring practice. Next, coaches gave some players instructions for the captain's practices. Training camp came, and now plenty of in-season practices and games. Also, and this is an assumption, but Limegrover and Claeys haven't implemented at least 20%, if not more, of what they really want to do.

So, still trying to figure out how they trailed a mediocre Purdue team by 42 points? Maybe I'll end up being wrong about Purdue, but they aren't going bowling.
 

Texas-Gopher said:
Look, I'm not the most football savvy guy in the world, but I think it's generally understood that when a new coach takes over, even with a program that is successful like a well oiled machine, you can expect a drop off for a couple years. Even if a high quality coach is hired. So what should we expect with Minnesota? Did we get god's gift to coaching? As much as I like Kill I have no delusions that he's the second coming of anyone (I'll hope though). Can we expect over night success? With the state this program was in, come on. So let's take a guy that appears to be a quality coach, put him in one of the worst environments in college football, then sh!t all over him after 6 games (we didn't even wait that long, did we).

Nope, not me. Check back in a couple years.
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Who is **itting all over him? I know there are actually fans calling for his head. That's ridiculous. The guy's track record is impressive, and after being around him and his assistants, I'm even more convinced they can get this program back to a level of respectability.

That doesn't excuse losing to NMSU, NDSU, losing by 58 at Michigan, and trailing at one point by 42 to a lousy Purdue team.
 

Doogie said:
I hear you, but at what point does the constant stream reasoning end? They did have time with the coaches Jan.-Mar. with those 6.a.m. conditioning gatherings. Then, spring practice. Next, coaches gave some players instructions for the captain's practices. Training camp came, and now plenty of in-season practices and games. Also, and this is an assumption, but Limegrover and Claeys haven't implemented at least 20%, if not more, of what they really want to do.

So, still trying to figure out how they trailed a mediocre Purdue team by 42 points? Maybe I'll end up being wrong about Purdue, but they aren't going bowling.
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No doubt, but dropping 24 in the first quarter (and with 2 turnovers there isn't a team in the country that that couldn't happen to) would put a poor team in a position they would have no chance of getting out of. Take the 3 turnover differential away and how much of a blowout is it?

Michigan was down to Northwestern by 10 at the half and I was shaking my head. Three turnovers. In my mind there is no way Michigan isn't covering against NW (-7.5MI). Can happen to anyone.
 

A pick-6 for a td. A fumble that gave the Boiler's a sure t.d. A shanked punt that set up the Boiler's first td. Another fumble. That's how you get down 45-3. You hand the other team 21 points in a relatively short period of time. You make them earn very little. You give it away. The spirit dies just a liittle out there on the field when that happens. Purdue is not a decent team, but, they probably have more players who would make the Michigan 2 and 3 deeps...would maybe play some special teams stuff for hoke...

A loss to NDSU. A loss to NMSU. The head goes down...some of the players spirit gives up. Losing begets losing. A number of the Gophers probably are not sure where they are at with football. Those changes in staff,philosophy,scheme,system,expectations, discipline...after four or five years...some of them are too tired...too close to being done...too beaten up from the past four years of brewball and of institutional neglect, abuse and confusion caused by an administration that didn't have a clue what it was doing with the football program.

However, the year before there was a loss to USD and a butt-kicking from NIU. Perhaps you over-rank the talent...or the motivation...or the ego-strength that is left after the long, strange trip brewball had been.

You can try to discredit the current coaching staff...but...this is a COMPLETE and TOTAL rebuilding job at this point in time. It will not become a cathartic and healing process for a while yet. This is NOT a video game. This is a painful, emotional ending to the brewball era. It was inevitable: it would not end well. The football program has been in free-fall since that fateful day when prexy b fired a coach without having ANY kind of plan in place. I don't care so much that he fired a coach...BUT...the foolish prexy b had NO plan in place. He sent the football program into free-fall at the same time that the new stadium was being built. And, this 2011 season is the pitiful, painful, tragic ending of the brewball era. That's what's going on doogieman. Be a bit more sensitive. Be a bit more respectful of the painful process that this football program must and will go through on it's way in the rebuilding process.
 

Doogie said:
Who is **itting all over him? I know there are actually fans calling for his head. That's ridiculous. The guy's track record is impressive, and after being around him and his assistants, I'm even more convinced they can get this program back to a level of respectability.

That doesn't excuse losing to NMSU, NDSU, losing by 58 at Michigan, and trailing at one point by 42 to a lousy Purdue team.
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Please, I'm not responding to that. The list would be too long.
 

Doogie, this was a hack article plain and simple. What purpose did it really serve? Did you feel better after you got those emotions off of your chest?

As many have stated you can't compare the players at Michigan with the current crop at the U. Mich has had top 10 to 15 recruiting classes (per ESPN) just about every year. As you stated, Kill's coaches have not been able to install their real systems and practices like they want because of a lack of experienced upperclassman. So if it makes you feel better to go off and predict the blow out scores for the remainder of the season, then please just keep it to yourself and not put it into a meaningless article that just makes you look like an idiot.
 


Doogie said:
Who is **itting all over him? I know there are actually fans calling for his head. That's ridiculous. The guy's track record is impressive, and after being around him and his assistants, I'm even more convinced they can get this program back to a level of respectability.
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So what exactly is the point of piling on now? Because Reusse has now decided to compare Kill to a high school coach and you want Pat to notice you? Honestly, so much of what passes for media around here is you guys trying to impress each other. Ya, it's a shockingly bad start. Probably a combination of things: Kill's seizures, lack of talent, players who've been through too many coaches and have checked out, not very much talent to begin with, Kill playing all sorts of kids to see what he has, in the process of running off some, etc. Would be nice to to see some actual thoughtful analysis instead of B.S. comparing the Gophers to Michigan. This guy has a track record. Granted, it was against a Brewster coached team, but I saw a team of Kill's not too long ago that played tough, disciplined football and basically run over us.
 

I think we should fire Kill and staff immediately (sarcasm) since we already have the perfect staff right here under our noses. Who is it? None other than the Minnesota sports writers. What an all-star coaching staff we could have in Doogie, Reusse, and the other clowns. They obviously have it figured out and have all the answers. :)
 

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