Does the passage of the Vikings stadium bill...

[John Galt]

The market is certainly big enough - there are enough Fortune 500 companies, enough middle-class residents, and plenty of alums of the U to fill the seats and eyes on TV for both programs.

That said, a smaller market (I'm thinking in the range of between 100,000 and 500,000 in a 20 mile radius) that doesn't share a pro team (in any sport, but most notably football) absolutely has an advantage for ticket sales and top-to-bottom loyalty to a collegiate program. Here are my reasons:

- They're the only game in town. People want to root for a "hometown team," and in this case they're the only one. The vibrancy of their city or town depends on the success of their team so fans will be more ardent for that program than an NFL (or NBA/MLB/etc) team 100+ miles away. Heck, many people may even seek out a college town like that to live in because they either went to the school or just like that atmosphere of die-hard rabid fans.
- Local media (radio, tv, newspaper, etc) cover them nearly exclusively. Go down to Iowa City/Coralville. It's tough to get the Des Moines Register, but the local paper is easy to come by. They have a much larger coverage of all things Hawkeyes than the Strib and PP combined do (and I've been fairly pleased recently in their coverage). You'll also have a much higher chance of positive coverage by these outlets, which helps perception of the program(s).
- Going back to point #1 - funding, whether gov't supported or private fundraising, a reasonably college town (or state with no NFL team) gets the lion's share of donations and support. Money has proven to be key in keeping facilities up to date, building new ones, etc to attract the top talent and coaches.
- The national media tips the scales for viewers and tickets towards pro sports simply because they are seen as a better product. They (most notably the NFL and MLB) have been run as efficient businesses for quite some time with a hefty investment in public relations to make people believe they are the top game in town in every angle from in-game atmosphere to viewing experience to quality of play on the field. This means that simply having a pro team in your area doesn't just cut your potential fans in half, it naturally gives a minimum 65/35 advantage, in my opinion.
- Larger markets, as evidenced by MSP and Chicago among many others, are made up of a diverse population. This includes people who attended rival universities (see Iowa and Wisc alums in the area) as well as other smaller school whose alums don't feel tied to the university in the big city (they already have their own). In our case we've got tons of UMD, St Cloud, NDSU, UND, Mankato, and other schools represented here, all of which have competed with our school in at least one sport if not more. This cuts away the number of people who could ever be in the range of mild to die-hard fans of the U.
- People have pointed it out before, but schools in major media markets recently got together to share ideas on how to compete in that environment. There is obviously a recognized issue with that particular situation.

I do think that a large portion of the U's struggles come from lack of spend and focus on athletics in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. I also think the marketing of our programs has been lackluster (they even squandered an awesome opportunity with the new stadium when compared to Target Field, for example). Lastly, we've made some bonehead hires and fires. That said, I can't believe someone would argue that being competitive in a major market has its definite challenges compared to middle-sized cities where the school is the only name in town.

Well said Rail Baron. The Gophers can be successful with the Vikings in town, but it does make it more difficult.

 

[Parski1]

An annual game with NDSU at the new stadium would be a big moneymaker for both schools. I wouldn't be for it, but I would understand it.

There is no rivalry - Gopher fans could care less about an annual game with NDSU. How boring for us!

 

[GoAUpher]

There is no rivalry - Gopher fans could care less about an annual game with NDSU. How boring for us!

Where did he say it was a rivalry? He was proposing that the athletic department might choose to go this route b/c they'd make a killing in terms of ticket sales off of a throwaway 1AA game. I don't think he's right that they'd choose to but that's just my opinion.

 

[RodentRampage]

If you're playing an annual game with a non-conference opponent, that certainly looks like a rivalry.

 

[GoAUpher]

If you're playing an annual game with a non-conference opponent, that certainly looks like a rivalry.

Fair enough. In any case, I still don't see it happening. If the U were to ever be in the position where an additional million per year (the approx amount extra a game like this would add if single game seats were sold at $70 a pop) was worth it then the dept has bigger issues.

 

[josh087]

This will definitely detract from our program as there is no way to compete with this atmosphere:

The bill approved by legislators calls for building a 65,000-seat stadium that could be expanded to handle 72,000 fans. It would include 7,500 club seats, 150 suites and space for gift shops, restaurants and an NFL team museum and Hall of Fame.

The stadium would have a fixed roof, but the team has an option of installing a retractable cover if it chooses.

"It's an enormous undertaking," Grabarski said, adding that the stadium will cost three times the sum needed to erect a 50-story skyscraper. "It's one of the largest enclosed facilities ever conceived. And it will be some time before we see anything like it again."

Good point. The Gopher's biggest draw to the casual fan - the stadium - is instantly now overshadowed by an even bigger, newer, and more impressive in terms of features, stadium for the Vikings, an even more popular team than the Gophers without their shiny new stadium.

Great.

 

[josh087]

The market is certainly big enough - there are enough Fortune 500 companies, enough middle-class residents, and plenty of alums of the U to fill the seats and eyes on TV for both programs.

That said, a smaller market (I'm thinking in the range of between 100,000 and 500,000 in a 20 mile radius) that doesn't share a pro team (in any sport, but most notably football) absolutely has an advantage for ticket sales and top-to-bottom loyalty to a collegiate program. Here are my reasons:

- They're the only game in town. People want to root for a "hometown team," and in this case they're the only one. The vibrancy of their city or town depends on the success of their team so fans will be more ardent for that program than an NFL (or NBA/MLB/etc) team 100+ miles away. Heck, many people may even seek out a college town like that to live in because they either went to the school or just like that atmosphere of die-hard rabid fans.
- Local media (radio, tv, newspaper, etc) cover them nearly exclusively. Go down to Iowa City/Coralville. It's tough to get the Des Moines Register, but the local paper is easy to come by. They have a much larger coverage of all things Hawkeyes than the Strib and PP combined do (and I've been fairly pleased recently in their coverage). You'll also have a much higher chance of positive coverage by these outlets, which helps perception of the program(s).
- Going back to point #1 - funding, whether gov't supported or private fundraising, a reasonably college town (or state with no NFL team) gets the lion's share of donations and support. Money has proven to be key in keeping facilities up to date, building new ones, etc to attract the top talent and coaches.
- The national media tips the scales for viewers and tickets towards pro sports simply because they are seen as a better product. They (most notably the NFL and MLB) have been run as efficient businesses for quite some time with a hefty investment in public relations to make people believe they are the top game in town in every angle from in-game atmosphere to viewing experience to quality of play on the field. This means that simply having a pro team in your area doesn't just cut your potential fans in half, it naturally gives a minimum 65/35 advantage, in my opinion.
- Larger markets, as evidenced by MSP and Chicago among many others, are made up of a diverse population. This includes people who attended rival universities (see Iowa and Wisc alums in the area) as well as other smaller school whose alums don't feel tied to the university in the big city (they already have their own). In our case we've got tons of UMD, St Cloud, NDSU, UND, Mankato, and other schools represented here, all of which have competed with our school in at least one sport if not more. This cuts away the number of people who could ever be in the range of mild to die-hard fans of the U.
- People have pointed it out before, but schools in major media markets recently got together to share ideas on how to compete in that environment. There is obviously a recognized issue with that particular situation.

I do think that a large portion of the U's struggles come from lack of spend and focus on athletics in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. I also think the marketing of our programs has been lackluster (they even squandered an awesome opportunity with the new stadium when compared to Target Field, for example). Lastly, we've made some bonehead hires and fires. That said, I can't believe someone would argue that being competitive in a major market has its definite challenges compared to middle-sized cities where the school is the only name in town.

+1,000,000

 

[RailBaronYarr]

Good point. The Gopher's biggest draw to the casual fan - the stadium - is instantly now overshadowed by an even bigger, newer, and more impressive in terms of features, stadium for the Vikings, an even more popular team than the Gophers without their shiny new stadium.

Great.

I agree. There is a "little brother syndrome" in many markets when comparing a college program/venue to a pro one in the eyes of the casual fan. While open-air, bench seating stadiums work just fine in the 110,000 seat Michigan Stadium , 100+ Neyland at Tennessee, 80,000 Camp Randall, etc etc from an atmosphere perspective, people see an NFL venue with all the bells and whistles (forgetting that the state and city alone just spent double what the entire TCF Bank Stadium cost) and immediately feel the right to complain about the amenities. The college program is seen as the second-rate team in town.

This was even more true when we shared the dome with the Vikings. Go to a Vikings game and the field, wall markings, advertisements, plaza coordination and events, and everything else seemed much more professional than the U. This was partly the U's fault, but also because we had third dibs on time to get in/set up/etc to the Vikings and Twins. We looked like lower class citizens from the get go.

 

[e.bigelow]

Good point. The Gopher's biggest draw to the casual fan - the stadium - is instantly now overshadowed by an even bigger, newer, and more impressive in terms of features, stadium for the Vikings, an even more popular team than the Gophers without their shiny new stadium.

Great.

I agree, but there is a few years for our gopher to improve the quality on the field and gameday atmosphere before the vikings stadium comes to be. Personally, I prefer the gameday atmosphere of a Gophers game to any vikings experience I've ever had.

 

[GoAUpher]

The Gophers are never going to win a head to head contest with the Vikings. The new stadium makes this barely an worse IMO (since TCF clearly won't fix that issue on it's own). Hopefully the U embraces that it has a different product to sell (the collegiate product) and actually attempts to market the differences in a positive fashion.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

The Gophers are never going to win a head to head contest with the Vikings. The new stadium makes this barely an worse IMO (since TCF clearly won't fix that issue on it's own). Hopefully the U embraces that it has a different product to sell (the collegiate product) and actually attempts to market the differences in a positive fashion.

I agree with you that there are a ton of ways the U can sell the product that it hasn't been utilizing thus far. It also has an advantage of a 2 million metro population of potential casual fans (even though there are a lot of rivals or challenges) to draw from, something a school like Wisconsin or Iowa would kill for. Just stating that having an NFL team in our big market certainly poses a challenge for us, and a new Vikings stadium with many more bells/whistles than the dome doesn't help that.

 

[Gold Vision]

Win consistently and the stadium will fill up. That's all there is to it. There are plenty of fans for both teams.

Football on Saturday & Sunday > Football on Saturday Only.

 

[supadupafly]

Win consistently and the stadium will fill up. That's all there is to it. There are plenty of fans for both teams.

Football on Saturday & Sunday > Football on Saturday Only.

this is pretty much all that needs to be said. JUST WIN BABY! sure there are ancillary things like marketing, etc. that also need to be done effectively by university athletic departments. but first and foremost winning on a somewhat consistent basis is what makes the difference for any college football program. whether they are located in the same city/metro region as an NFL team (i.e. miami, los angeles, atlanta, denver, seattle) or not. and i am not even necessarily talking about competing for the national championship every year. just solid consistent seasons with a stellar season thrown in to the mix every 5 years or so.

all this other grinding of teeth and whatnot is pretty much pointless and a waste of breath and time. JUST WIN BABY!

p.s. our family will always be gopher football fans first and foremost (bigger fans of the U of M than the vikings) and will always be at the games and be at the stadium before and after tailgating. but we also have to remember that there are these things called casual sports fans. and when they have multiple options of teams which to bandwagon onto, they are obviously going to more often gravitate towards those that have a more consistent level of winning. especially if it is more recent, as casual sports fans also have very short memories and often lack a key thing.....LOYALTY.

 

[RailBaronYarr]

this is pretty much all that needs to be said. JUST WIN BABY! sure there are ancillary things like marketing, etc. that also need to be done effectively by university athletic departments. but first and foremost winning on a somewhat consistent basis is what makes the difference for any college football program. whether they are located in the same city/metro region as an NFL team (i.e. miami, los angeles, atlanta, denver, seattle) or not. and i am not even necessarily talking about competing for the national championship every year. just solid consistent seasons with a stellar season thrown in to the mix every 5 years or so.

Is that why, despite a history of national championships in the late 80s, early 90s, and 1 in 2001, Miami has had a hard time filling up their stadium each year? Hard to argue with a 301-98 record since 1979 (recent memory for any college football fan and then some), 5 national championships, 4 #2 finishes, and 15 times finished the season in the top 10 of AP poll. Yet they have had a very hard time filing their stands, or even coming close. Seems odd, doesn't it? I mean Miami is a vibrant city with tons of people and plenty of money to go around, you'd think there would be enough interest in a consistently competitive team.

I think the "just win baby" is the easy way out to explain fan behavior. I agree it is obviously the most effective way to draw fans. However, the U must do much more to create loyalty to keep them in the seats when there is a down year or 2 (or heaven forbid 5 years in a row). We cannot expect to be Michigan, OSU, or Penn State where a down year/2 is forgivable and people continue to come in droves. With all the other options for entertainment in the TC, including pro sports, people will find something else to spend their money and time on if they don't feel that a) the product on the field is worth it and b) there isn't something else compelling drawing them there each week (be it a rockin tailgating/bargaiting scene, great stadium atmosphere, hot babes, free prizes, the best stadium fare around, nostalgia, or whatever).

 

[Gopher07]

Miami is kind of a special case, in that their fans of any sport are typically crap. If you look at the past full regular season:

Florida Panthers: 87% capacity (23rd in the league)
Miami Dolphins: 81% capacity (31st)
Florida Marlins: 49% capacity (28th)
Miami Heat: 102% capacity (5th)

Miami Hurricanes football: 64% capacity
Miami Hurricanes basketball: 59% capacity

Compared to Minnesota:

Minnesota Wild: 98% (18th)
Minnesota Vikings: 98% capacity (14th)
Minnesota Twins: 99% capacity (5th)
Minnesota Timberwolves: 90% capacity (14th)

Minnesota Golden Gopher football: 94% capacity
Minnesota Golden Gopher basketball: 81% capacity

So they have to deal with general malaise toward sports teams from their populace as well as a large amount of competition. Say what you will about Minnesota sports fans being fair-weather, they do tend to show up (or at least buy tickets) more than some other metro areas. When you also consider the people are so desperate for a winner, it's not a stretch to think a great season from the boys in Maroon and Gold would fill the seats for the next 3-4 years on its own.

Obviously there needs to be progress and it can't be one great year followed by 5 poor ones. But winning - big - would fill the seats and sell the program more than anything and everything else combined.

Also, since 2006, Miami has gone 41-35 in football. Minnesota has gone 26-49. It's something of a testament to the fans that are still here (not to mention the power of a shiny new stadium).

 

[josh087]

Is that why, despite a history of national championships in the late 80s, early 90s, and 1 in 2001, Miami has had a hard time filling up their stadium each year? Hard to argue with a 301-98 record since 1979 (recent memory for any college football fan and then some), 5 national championships, 4 #2 finishes, and 15 times finished the season in the top 10 of AP poll. Yet they have had a very hard time filing their stands, or even coming close. Seems odd, doesn't it? I mean Miami is a vibrant city with tons of people and plenty of money to go around, you'd think there would be enough interest in a consistently competitive team.

I think the "just win baby" is the easy way out to explain fan behavior. I agree it is obviously the most effective way to draw fans. However, the U must do much more to create loyalty to keep them in the seats when there is a down year or 2 (or heaven forbid 5 years in a row). We cannot expect to be Michigan, OSU, or Penn State where a down year/2 is forgivable and people continue to come in droves. With all the other options for entertainment in the TC, including pro sports, people will find something else to spend their money and time on if they don't feel that a) the product on the field is worth it and b) there isn't something else compelling drawing them there each week (be it a rockin tailgating/bargaiting scene, great stadium atmosphere, hot babes, free prizes, the best stadium fare around, nostalgia, or whatever).

I love the Miami example, because it actually proves my point.

People that don't think the Vikings affect the Gophers use this like a crutch - "see, Miami can do it..." Not only does it prove that the pro team affect the college team with how fickle fans are in a pro market, but it is ridiculous to compare the situations at Miami and Minnesota. Miami has two massive advantages that the I of M does not - weather, and HS talent in their own backyard. For those reasons alone, you cannot expect Minnesota to compete with Miami unless it has advantages Miami does not - which isn't the case. The fact that Miami HAS won the way that it has yet STILL struggles to fill the stands and generate interest is exhibit A that shows that "just win baby" in a pro market is the dumbest way to approach it. Unless you win every single game (see; 10/18/2003) the market by and large in a pro town won't care.

Even if you believe this Miami nonsense - you still cannot get by the fact that they are an outlier in an equation that will always read "NFL Market = Tougher for the college team to win."

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

JUST WIN, BABY is brilliant! Hard to understand why every college doesn't employ this strategy. Perhaps it's more difficult than just wanting to. Maybe you have to recruit good talent. Maybe that's the rub. And top stud talents have been accustomed to being the big man in their town. They can either choose to go to Madison, Iowa City, Columbus, Lincoln or dozens of other towns where their sport will be number one and they will be adored by the fans -- or they can go to Minneapolis and be ignored by the fans. My theory is that over time as the NFL generally and the Vikings particularly strengthened their position, enough top talent chose schools where they're noticed. This has resulted in the decline of Gopher football from a regular conference power and occasional national power prior to the conversion of Minnesota to a pro market to what you see now. Nevertheless, we can be better, and maybe even good again but a quick fix hoped for through spectacular recruiting of NFL-bound talent is not likely to be realized. I'd like to see the U recruit good student, good citizen, four-year players who can be coached into playing disciplined football. As wins come from this strategy, attention on the U program will grow. As that attention grows, we will become more attractive to more talent. I know this viewpoint is considered defeatist by some, but I think the U can win and be an attraction. It will just take a different recruiting strategy than what is successful in most other conference towns.

 

[supadupafly]

Is that why, despite a history of national championships in the late 80s, early 90s, and 1 in 2001, Miami has had a hard time filling up their stadium each year? Hard to argue with a 301-98 record since 1979 (recent memory for any college football fan and then some), 5 national championships, 4 #2 finishes, and 15 times finished the season in the top 10 of AP poll. Yet they have had a very hard time filing their stands, or even coming close. Seems odd, doesn't it? I mean Miami is a vibrant city with tons of people and plenty of money to go around, you'd think there would be enough interest in a consistently competitive team.

I think the "just win baby" is the easy way out to explain fan behavior. I agree it is obviously the most effective way to draw fans. However, the U must do much more to create loyalty to keep them in the seats when there is a down year or 2 (or heaven forbid 5 years in a row). We cannot expect to be Michigan, OSU, or Penn State where a down year/2 is forgivable and people continue to come in droves. With all the other options for entertainment in the TC, including pro sports, people will find something else to spend their money and time on if they don't feel that a) the product on the field is worth it and b) there isn't something else compelling drawing them there each week (be it a rockin tailgating/bargaiting scene, great stadium atmosphere, hot babes, free prizes, the best stadium fare around, nostalgia, or whatever).

i think i get what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree. but to be fair, miami, although a pro/college football city, is perhaps not a great comparison. it is kind of an anomaly in the list of pro/college football cities. in that it seems to be filled far more with casual sports fans and a ton of transient residents than any other pro/college football city. i.e. a good chunk of the population is really from/grew up "some place else". and it probably wasn't florida. their sporting allegiances hang somewhere else. and it is filled with a bunch of retirees. miami seems different than a place like los angeles. where i think you see less transients/retirees, and a greater % of the population whose family is actually from there and who grew up there, went to school in the state at ucla, usc, etc.

whatever the argument is though, i think we can both agree on one thing that will solve a lot of the supposed pro/college town problems....winning and doing it more consistently. that really is going to be the only magic elixir out there.

 

[howeda7]

Here's my quick, off-the-top of my head list of the top 10 college football programs over the last 20 years: USC, Florida, Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma, Ohio St., LSU, Florida St., Auburn, and someone else. Now tell me this: How many of these schools share cities with NFL teams? The answer is zero.

Alabama has 500,000 fewer residents than MN and has to compete with Auburn. Which would you rather compete with? Alabama/Auburn or the Vikings? Oklahoma has over 1,000,000 fewer residents and has to compete with OK State. Sure, having the Vikings across town in a new building may make a marginal difference in selling suites or tickets. But it's still better than having another BCS school in St. Cloud.

 

[josh087]

Alabama has 500,000 fewer residents than MN and has to compete with Auburn. Which would you rather compete with? Alabama/Auburn or the Vikings? Oklahoma has over 1,000,000 fewer residents and has to compete with OK State. Sure, having the Vikings across town in a new building may make a marginal difference in selling suites or tickets. But it's still better than having another BCS school in St. Cloud.

OMG!!! HOW IN THE WORLD DO ALABAMA AND OKLAHOMA EVER WIN A GAME???

In 2011, Alabama had 86 Division I signees
In 2011, Oklahoma had 44 Division I signees

In 2011, Minnesota, with one of its strongest classes in recent memory, had only 11.

So, you'd rather compete with zero DI programs but have 4 times and 8 times fewer division I players in your backyard to recruit than go up against one other FBS school? Who cares about the overall population of the state. Count the DI athletes for a true comparison.

Give me the recruiting base and let me go up against another school anyday vs. competing with a pro market and no recruiting base..

 

[RailBaronYarr]

OMG!!! HOW IN THE WORLD DO ALABAMA AND OKLAHOMA EVER WIN A GAME???

In 2011, Alabama had 86 Division I signees
In 2011, Oklahoma had 44 Division I signees

In 2011, Minnesota, with one of its strongest classes in recent memory, had only 11.

So, you'd rather compete with zero DI programs but have 4 times and 8 times fewer division I players in your backyard to recruit than go up against one other FBS school? Who cares about the overall population of the state. Count the DI athletes for a true comparison.

Give me the recruiting base and let me go up against another school anyday vs. competing with a pro market and no recruiting base..

Josh highlights that there are many challenges the U faces. One is obviously local recruiting talent - quantity and quality of the athletes to pick and choose from. That is certainly unrelated from there being a pro team in town, however.

Miami has struggled to win fans over in SPITE of their success, the state's interest in football, and local talent. Doesn't anyone see that that this is a direct result of the fact that they ARE in a city? Yes, Miami has a lot of transients and people from other places. But isn't that typical of most big metro areas? I already pointed out how many people that attended other universities live in the TC, and many of them didn't grow up here, either. We have a lot of big corporations (Target, Best Buy, Cargill, 3M, etc etc) that draw workers from all over. And we're not nearly the same as a Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, LA, New York is. And I'd argue all schools in those areas struggle with fan retention and interest (the exception being USC in LA, which doesn't even have an NFL franchise).

 

[50PoundHead]

Ummm, sorry would not have failed with the general public.

Parski, if the Viking ownership under both McCombs and Wilf would have been confident enough to put the proposal on a regional or statewide referendum, the issue would have been solved a decade ago. Remember that in Brown County, Wisconsin, where the Packers are the only game in town, the county-wide referendum passed on a vote of 53%/47%. I'm glad this got done, but there's a reason that franchises don't want to put these items before the voters.

 

[station19]

]Parski, if the Viking ownership under both McCombs and Wilf would have been confident enough to put the proposal on a regional or statewide referendum, the issue would have been solved a decade ago[/B]. Remember that in Brown County, Wisconsin, where the Packers are the only game in town, the county-wide referendum passed on a vote of 53%/47%. I'm glad this got done, but there's a reason that franchises don't want to put these items before the voters.

Keep in mind when the Metrodome bill was passed the Vikings signed a 30 year lease. At this point in time
the Vikings have played zero games in the dome that were not part of the 30 year lease.

No reason the Vikings should not be expected to live up to the terms of the dome lease.

 

[BBQ Platypus]

I've said this before and I'll say this again - it's possible (likely, even) that no Vikings = better attendance for the Gophers. But if you think "Hey! We don't have an NFL team!" is going to be a selling point for the out-of-state recruits this program will need to be successful, you need to get your head examined.

 

[50PoundHead]

Keep in mind when the Metrodome bill was passed the Vikings signed a 30 year lease. At this point in time
the Vikings have played zero games in the dome that were not part of the 30 year lease.

No reason the Vikings should not be expected to live up to the terms of the dome lease.

Absolutely. My only point is that public referenda on stadium projects are anathema to those proposing them, and likely for good reason. It was always a non-starter with the Vikings' brass.