Do MN really suck that bad?

[MNVCGUY]

*clicks on thread.....instantly regrets decision*....

 

[Mr. 131]

Well... I think Minnesota is not what it could be. As a whole, it is a just-above-mediocre flagship public school that is situated in a somewhat high end metropolis.

But we've not turned into the sort of top-notch place we could be. We're not Berkeley or Michigan or UCLA or UVA or Texas or UNC, etc. We've just not had the institutional focus on being a good university. Which is a pity. Because we could be.

I'd stand behind frustration around athletics, but the U is very much respected in terms of research and is considered by many to be borderline public-ivy. Ten year staffer, and that's the perspective I consistently have heard expressed.

 

[touchdownvikings]

I'd stand behind frustration around athletics, but the U is very much respected in terms of research and is considered by many to be borderline public-ivy. Ten year staffer, and that's the perspective I consistently have heard expressed.

I think you're probably right.

I think there's a disconnect between whether UMN is a prestigious place to be a professor versus whether it's a a prestigious place to be a student. From a student's perspective, the problem is that it does not field a top-ten law school or business school or medical school or engineering program. And its acceptance rate is way too high. So it's not prestigious and therefore won't help get a student into realms where prestige is pretty much a requirement. ...But I think UMN produces top-notch research, and lots of it.

 

[Word]

I think you're probably right.

I think there's a disconnect between whether UMN is a prestigious place to be a professor versus whether it's a a prestigious place to be a student. From a student's perspective, the problem is that it does not field a top-ten law school or business school or medical school or engineering program. And its acceptance rate is way too high. So it's not prestigious and therefore won't help get a student into realms where prestige is pretty much a requirement. ...But I think UMN produces top-notch research, and lots of it.

U was #1 (depending on who was ranking) in chem engineering when I was a student there. Lots of top 20 engineering programs for sure.
U of M law considered top 20 by many. Carlson top 25 in most rankings.

 

[PMWinSTP]

U was #1 (depending on who was ranking) in chem engineering when I was a student there. Lots of top 20 engineering programs for sure.
U of M law considered top 20 by many. Carlson top 25 in most rankings.

Rankings

Browse the Carlson School of Management's rankings, facts, and figures. Our business school is highly ranked, both nationally and internationally.

carlsonschool.umn.edu

U of M graduate programs excel in latest U.S. News rankings

University of Minnesota graduate programs received high marks in the latest US News rankings.

twin-cities.umn.edu

Law school is ranked #16 overall, #5 for public law schools. There just is a misplaced judgement/opinion that the U is not a top school.

 

[In-House Gopher]

I think you're probably right.

I think there's a disconnect between whether UMN is a prestigious place to be a professor versus whether it's a a prestigious place to be a student. From a student's perspective, the problem is that it does not field a top-ten law school or business school or medical school or engineering program. And its acceptance rate is way too high. So it's not prestigious and therefore won't help get a student into realms where prestige is pretty much a requirement. ...But I think UMN produces top-notch research, and lots of it.

Who says that prestige is the most important attribute of our public university? You come across as an elitist.

Here's the UMN's mission statement "The University of Minnesota System is driven by a singular vision of excellence. We are proud of our land-grant mission of world-class education, groundbreaking research, and community-engaged outreach, and we are unified in our drive to serve Minnesota." While Carlson and UMN Law may not be the best choice for landing gigs at top AM Law 100 firms or Wall Street banks, they have successfully served the UofMN's mission and they are well represented in local businesses and civic leadership . Minneapolis isn't NYC, Boston, Chicago or LA so its less important for our state to the most prestigious finance or legal programs.

Michigan is a bit unique and that it serves mostly out-of-state residents and skews towards students from the east coast.

 

[Word]

I have no idea who that is. So, no.

Big Game Boomer - https://twitter.com/BigGameBoomer

 

[touchdownvikings]

Who says that prestige is the most important attribute of our public university? You come across as an elitist.

Here's the UMN's mission statement "The University of Minnesota System is driven by a singular vision of excellence. We are proud of our land-grant mission of world-class education, groundbreaking research, and community-engaged outreach, and we are unified in our drive to serve Minnesota." While Carlson and UMN Law may not be the best choice for landing gigs at top AM Law 100 firms or Wall Street banks, they have successfully served the UofMN's mission and they are well represented in local businesses and civic leadership . Minneapolis isn't NYC, Boston, Chicago or LA so its less important for our state to the most prestigious finance or legal programs.

Michigan is a bit unique and that it serves mostly out-of-state residents and skews towards students from the east coast.

I don't think prestige is necessarily the most important thing. In fact, I think you've summed things up about right. Prestige is not our mission, and therefore we are not prestigious. Mainly, this doesn't matter, but depending on a student's ambitions, it can absolutely matter.

 

[knuckles]

Not really.

Try using that pedigree to go to the top Wall Street firms or the top management consulting firms (MBB), and so on. The reality is, Carlson is not Ross, for example. Not even close. Carlson is good, but far from great. And the kids who go to Ross would never go to Carlson. And the terrible part of all of this is that we created this situation. We could be top-notch. But we chose not to be. And there's almost nothing where we're truly top-notch. We're just not UMich or Berkeley, and WE COULD HAVE BEEN. That's on us. And now we pay to send our kids elsewhere. ...Hell, I had to pay to send myself to a law school that was good. No fun on that front!

This is reality. Despite my years of indoctrination one of mine declined U of M law school and a full scholarship in favor of a T14 with far better outcomes. Another picked undergrad at a B1G school that is just statistically better. The U chooses to be where it is.

 

[swelna]

I have no idea who that is. So, no.

...I would be surprised if any of you also know of my other identity, but I guess there's always a chance.

(I will say this, though: as a result of the various series, I have had a phone call result that connected me with someone many of you would definitely know, and puts me about one step away from controversial events that have occurred and will occur soon.)

If you've been clued into the UAP/Alien stuff with the government, blink twice.

 

[Tommyboy]

The University Hospital is loosing over 100,000,000 million a year. The Tribune yesterday stated the state has lost over 150,000 students over the last several years to other states. The high school numbers are declining. Drugs are now legal. All of the University's are hurting for students. Football is doing the same thing as the large Hospitals, they continue to merge. The times are a changing.

 

[Dave H]

The University Hospital is loosing over 100,000,000 million a year. The Tribune yesterday stated the state has lost over 150,000 students over the last several years to other states. The high school numbers are declining. Drugs are now legal. All of the University's are hurting for students. Football is doing the same thing as the large Hospitals, they continue to merge. The times are a changing.

Well now...here is a boatload of nonsense!

 

[PMWinSTP]

I have no idea who that is. So, no.

...I would be surprised if any of you also know of my other identity, but I guess there's always a chance.

(I will say this, though: as a result of the various series, I have had a phone call result that connected me with someone many of you would definitely know, and puts me about one step away from controversial events that have occurred and will occur soon.)

Aren't you special. I think from your bread crumb posts, I've figured the school thing out...

 

[Tommyboy]

Well now...here is a boatload of nonsense!

I did not say it was a bad school. These are just facts, it is difficult to have such a high rated medical school, when the hospital is hurting financially and not one of their departments is nationally recognized. Huge potential.

 

[Plato]

If you look at the table showing the academic rankings, the most logical way to look at them is to put the schools in groups where the numbers are very close to one another.
NW is by itself, MI, USC, and UCLA next WA, ILL, and WI next. MN would be in the next group.
So NW 1
MI could claim to be 2
WI could claim to be 3
MN to be 4
etc etc
In the 60s through the 80s the U of MN Medical School was very well thought of and students from Ivy League medical schools sought to train there.
Something happened then and it is no longer thought about in the same way.

 

[touchdownvikings]

Aren't you special. I think from your bread crumb posts, I've figured the school thing out...

View attachment 26313

PMW -

I was not the one who asked me where I went to school. Nor did I ask anyone to ask me. I understand normal human drive to understand evasiveness, so I revealed a little -- so all of you could have a basis for grasping why I'm apprehensive.

I have no idea: perhaps you've also published 1000+ pages of material. Perhaps you've also got 10,000-20,000 regular readers. And if that's the case, you know where I stand. But please understand, I'm in a precarious spot and am trying to say what it is I can.

I am not trying to leave bread crumbs for people to follow. I don't want to be found by those who are here. At least not knowingly. So you've got it mistaken.

Changing subjects, law school is near and dear to me. I had to spend a lot of money, because the U won't get you to the top. Frustratingly, it's as good as you can get without being so good it affords you access to the top. And, more frustratingly, that's pretty much the U as a whole. It really could be better than Berkeley. But it chose not to be. Which isn't necessarily bad, depending on your perceived mission. But if you want something different because you have particular goals, you're screwed, and Minnesota as a state and a university offers you nothing.

 

[touchdownvikings]

To elaborate, may I ask whomever may be interested to look at the attached? It shows the recruiting behavior of the top corporate firm in America. And, lo and behold, it recruits only from the top 14 law schools (knuckles, above, mentioned the T14 -- that's the reference).

It visits the top half, and permits online interview from the bottom half. If you are at #15 or #16 or #17 -- you're screwed. They only recruit from the top. And, in reality, that's what most of the white shoe firms do, with only very slight exceptions. So, as a result, I paid a ton of money to go to one of the schools in the top list.

But you know what? If I had been lucky enough to grow up in California or Virginia or Michigan, and could have therefore paid in-state tuition to go to one of those schools in the "bottom" list, I'd have done that. The top list and the bottom list are separated only by contribution to ego. But that list as a whole is separated from everything else by reality. And knuckles, for example, knows this. And so does his pocketbook. ...And we could be one of those schools in the bottom list, if we chose.

 

[ComoCraig]

To elaborate, may I ask whomever may be interested to look at the attached? It shows the recruiting behavior of the top corporate firm in America. And, lo and behold, it recruits only from the top 14 law schools (knuckles, above, mentioned the T14 -- that's the reference).

It visits the top half, and permits online interview from the bottom half. If you are at #15 or #16 or #17 -- you're screwed. They only recruit from the top. And, in reality, that's what most of the white shoe firms do, with only very slight exceptions. So, as a result, I paid a ton of money to go to one of the schools in the top list.

But you know what? If I had been lucky enough to grow up in California or Virginia or Michigan, and could have therefore paid in-state tuition to go to one of those schools in the "bottom" list, I'd have done that. The top list and the bottom list are separated only by contribution to ego. But that list as a whole is separated from everything else by reality. And knuckles, for example, knows this. And so does his pocketbook. ...And we could be one of those schools in the bottom list, if we chose.

How is the upward mobility if you graduate from a law school like Minnesota, establish yourself well at a mid-tier firm, and then seek a more premier position elsewhere? Does your work history then supersede your academic background?

That world is foreign to me, but it is somewhat interesting.

 

[knuckles]

To elaborate, may I ask whomever may be interested to look at the attached? It shows the recruiting behavior of the top corporate firm in America. And, lo and behold, it recruits only from the top 14 law schools (knuckles, above, mentioned the T14 -- that's the reference).

It visits the top half, and permits online interview from the bottom half. If you are at #15 or #16 or #17 -- you're screwed. They only recruit from the top. And, in reality, that's what most of the white shoe firms do, with only very slight exceptions. So, as a result, I paid a ton of money to go to one of the schools in the top list.

But you know what? If I had been lucky enough to grow up in California or Virginia or Michigan, and could have therefore paid in-state tuition to go to one of those schools in the "bottom" list, I'd have done that. The top list and the bottom list are separated only by contribution to ego. But that list as a whole is separated from everything else by reality. And knuckles, for example, knows this. And so does his pocketbook. ...And we could be one of those schools in the bottom list, if we chose.

Bingo.

 

[99Gopher]

From that graphic it really looks like Oregon and Rutgers are the two who don’t belong

I was looking at an ESPN YouTube college football realignment video and as part of the discussion academics came up and one poster claimed that there had been discussions about possibly removing Oregon from the AAU. Based on the academic rankings there may be some validity to that. So, basically, we might have another Nebraska where they get removed after joining the league.

 

[touchdownvikings]

How is the upward mobility if you graduate from a law school like Minnesota, establish yourself well at a mid-tier firm, and then seek a more premier position elsewhere? Does your work history then supersede your academic background?

That world is foreign to me, but it is somewhat interesting.

Como,

I've not run across you before, to my knowledge. So I don't have a sense as to your age, etc., and where you might be coming from.

As for upward mobility based on experience: generally, no. I can describe the situations that tend to lead to exceptions to that general rule, but the fact is that it really rarely happens, if you are referring to moving into the upper echelons of law firms.

If you are young and thinking about law school: definitely try to get into the T14, if you have ambitions of upper echelon employment. Otherwise, it probably just won't happen.

That said, look at the attached. It's the recruiting schedule for Boies, Schiller. If you saw Devon Archer testifying the other day, the attorney representing him was from this firm. You will notice that none of the schools they interview at are outside the T14. Except one. Howard. ...If you are African American, and you can't manage admissions into the T14, think about Howard, because MANY of the upper echelon firms will interview there for the purposes of affirmative action. So it's sort of a back door. I don't know if that applies, but if it does, keep it in mind. (But even if you are African American, you're WAY better off at the T14.)

 

[TruthSeeker]

Como,

I've not run across you before, to my knowledge. So I don't have a sense as to your age, etc., and where you might be coming from.

As for upward mobility based on experience: generally, no. I can describe the situations that tend to lead to exceptions to that general rule, but the fact is that it really rarely happens, if you are referring to moving into the upper echelons of law firms.

If you are young and thinking about law school: definitely try to get into the T14, if you have ambitions of upper echelon employment. Otherwise, it probably just won't happen.

That said, look at the attached. It's the recruiting schedule for Boies, Schiller. If you saw Devon Archer testifying the other day, the attorney representing him was from this firm. You will notice that none of the schools they interview at are outside the T14. Except one. Howard. ...If you are African American, and you can't manage admissions into the T14, think about Howard, because MANY of the upper echelon firms will interview there for the purposes of affirmative action. So it's sort of a back door. I don't know if that applies, but if it does, keep it in mind. (But even if you are African American, you're WAY better off at the T14.)

This is just not true. I went to law school at the U, did well, and knew lots of other people who did well. You can get into the biggest firms. It's not as easy, but you can.

Look at Cravath's website. Within the first 15 associates listed, you'll see Fordham Law School, Wash U Law School, George Washington Law School, and New York Law school. Not NYU, New York.

Just stop.

Can we please shut this thread down? It's way off course and filled with idiocy.

 

[Some guy]

I was looking at an ESPN YouTube college football realignment video and as part of the discussion academics came up and one poster claimed that there had been discussions about possibly removing Oregon from the AAU. Based on the academic rankings there may be some validity to that. So, basically, we might have another Nebraska where they get removed after joining the league.

Was looking at it the other day and was surprised to learn Iowa state lost it

 

[TurfGopher]

MN is mid B1G... whats new? in the big picture its a great school. Harvard, Stanford, Rice, Duke, Georgetown..... unless you come from big $$$ or are a absolute genius its not worth it. The bright kids at any university do well in undergrad, find their calling, and go to a great grad school.

 

[Plato]

I trained at the U for seven years, my wife graduated there, and my children went there for professional schools and are doing very well.
A granddaughter just graduated and a grandson just started.

 

[Gopher Ally]

My daughter is excelling academically at the U while running track for the Gophers. She will take her MCAT this month and hopefully get excepted into Minnesota’s med school. Youngest daughter just applied to Carlson with hopes of getting in and moving on to become a corporate attorney one day. I’m not a graduate of UofM but have always been a big fan! If I had a redo, I would have gone there, we know our kids are getting an Elite education!

 

[touchdownvikings]

How is the upward mobility if you graduate from a law school like Minnesota, establish yourself well at a mid-tier firm, and then seek a more premier position elsewhere? Does your work history then supersede your academic background?

That world is foreign to me, but it is somewhat interesting.

I trained at the U for seven years, my wife graduated there, and my children went there for professional schools and are doing very well.
A granddaughter just graduated and a grandson just started.

Como -

I haven't heard from you... but it has been said that it isn't true that Howard could be a back door. Please look at the attached. This is the interview schedule for Williams, Connolly -- the best DC litigation firm. They interview at the T14, plus Vandy and Texas (near great law schools) and... Howard. Howard is absolutely a potential backdoor, if that may fit you in terms of being African American. Assuming that is the case (I wouldn't know), T14 would serve you better, but Howard would also be a serious consideration.

Plato -

LOTS of people do well from UMN. Hopefully, most! ...The point is only that it doesn't do anything for you if you intend to go into those rare fields that have long ago erected prestige as a gate keeper.

 

[Drake University Gopher]

For sure you want to be the cheapest house in the expensive block!

Nah, more like the 3rd cheapest

 

[Ewert86PC]

I'll take your view as genuine. But you really don't know what you're talking about. I'll take the top 20 AMLAW law firms and find the number of UMN grads that get summer internships/jobs and UMich grads. It's about 50:1 in favor of UMich. Maybe more tilted.

But the shitty party is that it didn't have to pan out this way. We could be at the top end. We're just not. Does Goldman Sachs conduct on-campus interviews? Does Cravath? Does Sullivan? Does Wachtell?

I could go on. ...Now comes the time where someone says you can have a happy life without working for the top firms. Correct. That's not my point. My point is that if you want to, UMN chose not to service you. So you have to exit and pay $$. Which sucks.

Boom! You just witnessed a truth bomb!

 

[Ewert86PC]

I just found a prime example to answer this question on Facebook.

Let's play Where's Elmo?

Here's a hint: John Rich omitted a school that has won the National Championship seven times.