Desert dreams: P.J. Fleck likes where Gophers are headed five years into his tenure

[BleedGopher]

per Randy:

Just where is the Gophers program five years into Fleck's reign, and where is it headed?

"We are exactly where we should be,'' he said. "We're exactly where we are, and that's really how we get judged in this profession.''

That's Fleck's way of saying the past can't be changed and the future will play out. He's not one to use the end of a season as a milepost but rather another data point that each game brings.

"We don't judge success on wins,'' he said, pointing to the academic, social and spiritual legs of his program. "I know we get judged by that, but we don't base our success off that.''

Desert dreams: P.J. Fleck likes where Gophers are headed five years into his tenure

Tuesday's Guaranteed Rate Bowl will be the third bowl game for the Gophers under Fleck, and he's determined to keep them running toward more.

www.startribune.com

Go Gophers!!

 

[#2Gopher]

per Randy:

"We don't judge success on wins,'' he said, pointing to the academic, social and spiritual legs of his program. "I know we get judged by that, but we don't base our success off that.''

Go Gophers!!

No reason not to have success on both ends (wins and the academics...etc). If you don't have the wins, you're not going to have the fans. Without fans, you lose enthusiasm in the stadium along with revenue.

 

[HitMeAgainIAmStillMoving]

It seems not caring about wins and loses can get the OC fired.

 

[GopherPete]

It seems not caring about wins and loses can get the OC fired.

I don't know that I'd say Sanford didn't care, I'd bet he cares very much. I think it's just that he simply is not cut out for this kind of work. I think his history has proven that.

 

[Some guy]

It seems not caring about wins and loses can get the OC fired.

I mean win tonight and we just fired our OC during an unquestioned top 10 season in the last 50 years.
Has more to do with an expectations shift than not caring about winning.

the fact that the OC was fired says that he cares more about winning than his interview saying he does

 

[RememberMurray]

I mean win tonight and we just fired our OC during an unquestioned top 10 season in the last 50 years.
Has more to do with an expectations shift than not caring about winning.

the fact that the OC was fired says that he cares more about winning than his interview saying he does

Well said. In fact, you've understated it a bit.

Beat West Virginia and we'd finish 9-4. 50 years ago was 1971. The Gophers have had exactly 3 seasons of 9+ wins since 1971:

2003 — 10-3 (Glen Mason)

2016 — 9-4 (Tracy Claeys)

2019 — 11-2 (P.J. Fleck)

Yes, expectations have changed. Have they ever! A win over West Virginia would mean Minnesota has had four 9+ win seasons in 116 years, since the last 9+ win season before Mason's was in 1905.

P.J. Fleck would own 2 of those four.

It would also mean that the Gopher football program has has 3 of their best four seasons, based on total wins, in just the last six years.

 

[HitMeAgainIAmStillMoving]

I mean win tonight and we just fired our OC during an unquestioned top 10 season in the last 50 years.
Has more to do with an expectations shift than not caring about winning.

the fact that the OC was fired says that he cares more about winning than his interview saying he does

I am shocked, shocked to find that out Maybe not as shocked as Capt. Louis Renault, but still shocked.

 

[Hates Monikers]

There's a lot of focus on the "We don't judge success on wins" quote, but he also said:

"Knock harder,'' Fleck said on how to break through. "We've just got to do it better. Mike McCarthy used to say, 'Close gets you cut, almost gets you fired.' … We've come really close in both years, 2019 and this year, but we know what we have to be able to do. We have to play better in those crucial games.''

 

[hungan1]

Fleckism at its best. He is our very own spin doctor. Always an optimist.

He eventually intoxicates us with his Kool-Aid. As he has said, he is not for everyone. It’s either you love him or hate him.

 

[Gophers1992]

Fleckism at its best. He is our very own spin doctor. Always an optimist.

He eventually intoxicates us with his koolaide. Like he has said, he is not for everyone. It’s either you love him or hate him.

Yeah, love him or hate him, can anyone name a more exciting 5 year stretch of Gopher Football in modern history?

 

[SaintLouisGopher]

This mentality is not unique to Fleck. I came across this article about Nick Saban when I was in a leadership program a while back. It’s easy to understand why Saban has been so successful. He is quoted saying essentially the same thing Fleck is saying about wins and losses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasons...ck-saban-knows-about-success/?sh=4c9f05b31d52

 

[Some guy]

Well said. In fact, you've understated it a bit.

Beat West Virginia and we'd finish 9-4. 50 years ago was 1971. The Gophers have had exactly 3 seasons of 9+ wins since 1971:

2003 — 10-3 (Glen Mason)

2016 — 9-4 (Tracy Claeys)

2019 — 11-2 (P.J. Fleck)

Yes, expectations have changed. Have they ever! A win over West Virginia would mean Minnesota has had four 9+ win seasons in 116 years, since the last 9+ win season before Mason's was in 1905.

P.J. Fleck would own 2 of those four.

It would also mean that the Gopher football program has has 3 of their best four seasons, based on total wins, in just the last six years.

I think it could be argued some 8 win seasons were better than this season even if we win the bowl

which is why to use the word “unquestioned” I said top 10

But I tend to agree that with a win tonight it is more top 4-5

 

[Replacement Gopher]

This mentality is not unique to Fleck. I came across this article about Nick Saban when I was in a leadership program a while back. It’s easy to understand why Saban has been so successful. He is quoted saying essentially the same thing Fleck is saying about wins and losses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasons...ck-saban-knows-about-success/?sh=4c9f05b31d52

“According to Saban, process guarantees success. A good process produces good results. Likewise, if the process is off, the results will suffer. Focusing on the outcome is paradoxical. The more one emphasizes winning, the less he or she is able to concentrate on what actually causes success.”

 

[fmlizard]

Well said. In fact, you've understated it a bit.

Beat West Virginia and we'd finish 9-4. 50 years ago was 1971. The Gophers have had exactly 3 seasons of 9+ wins since 1971:

2003 — 10-3 (Glen Mason)

2016 — 9-4 (Tracy Claeys)

2019 — 11-2 (P.J. Fleck)

Yes, expectations have changed. Have they ever! A win over West Virginia would mean Minnesota has had four 9+ win seasons in 116 years, since the last 9+ win season before Mason's was in 1905.

P.J. Fleck would own 2 of those four.

It would also mean that the Gopher football program has has 3 of their best four seasons, based on total wins, in just the last six years.

A Gopher win tonight would mark the 3rd season in the history of Gopher football with 8 P5 wins (as "P5" is currently defined)

1960 (National Champs)
2019
2021 (TBD)

No Gopher team has ever won 9 P5 games in one season.

 

[RememberMurray]

Fleckism at its best. He is our very own spin doctor. Always an optimist.

He eventually intoxicates us with his Kool-Aid. As he has said, he is not for everyone. It’s either you love him or hate him.

"Fleckism"... "Kool-Aid"... "spin doctor"... "love him or hate him".

Interesting stuff.

I personally prefer "results on the field", "classroom performance" and "wins and losses when compared against the most recent 50 years of Gopher football history".

 

[RememberMurray]

A Gopher win tonight would mark the 3rd season in the history of Gopher football with 8 P5 wins (as "P5" is currently defined)

1960 (National Champs)
2019
2021 (TBD)

No Gopher team has ever won 9 P5 games in one season.

Yeah.

Not bad for a coach who has been compared to a "spin doctor" by some, eh?

 

[alaska]

At what point do we say that Fleck is officially the best coach we have had in our current history?

 

[hungan1]

This mentality is not unique to Fleck. I came across this article about Nick Saban when I was in a leadership program a while back. It’s easy to understand why Saban has been so successful. He is quoted saying essentially the same thing Fleck is saying about wins and losses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasons...ck-saban-knows-about-success/?sh=4c9f05b31d52

That is Saban's secret sauce. But let's not forget that for him, recruiting is effortless. He can pick and choose recruits that approach him. He locks and reloads with 4-Star and 5-Star players.

PJ Fleck has the arduous task of being a consummate salesman to recruit players to the proverbial tundra of college football recruiting. He is astute at marketing the Gopher Brand and recruiting players that fit the Gopher Culture. Then, develop the talent that is acquired. He teaches his players that when life gives you lemons, make lemonade!

He gets just enough 4-Star rated H.S. players. He and his staff had to be creative in identifying hidden gems, late bloomers, and underrated high school players. He and his staff have to develop them into team players. Some become legitimate 4-Stars and maybe even 5-Stars. It takes longer to develop a program to prominence this way.

But, I sense that the tide is turning in the last five years to get better players to get to championship-level football. I think that he is using the Transfer Portal effectively.

I marvel at the Gophers "team ball" successes against Penn State and Auburn in the 2019 season. These are teams that have at least four times as many 4-star players. We may in my lifetime be able to see that happen more as Gopher Recruiting goes up a few notches.

He said, "We are exactly where we should be." I believe him. He is being true to his vision from Day One.

Success breeds success. IMHO, it can only get better as more players end up in the NFL. There are only so many starting slots at the tOSUs and Bamas of this world.

 

[RememberMurray]

I think it could be argued some 8 win seasons were better than this season even if we win the bowl

which is why to use the word “unquestioned” I said top 10

But I tend to agree that with a win tonight it is more top 4-5

Of course. That's why I included the phrase "based on total wins".

 

[RememberMurray]

That is Saban's secret sauce. But let's not forget that for him, recruiting is effortless. He can pick and choose recruits that approach him. He locks and reloads with 4-Star and 5-Star players.

Excellent point.

In 1993, Barry Alvarez won the first of his eventual total of 3 B1G conference titles. Here's the Wiki page for that Badger team. Note the section that lists the players from that team who were drafted by the NFL in 1994. Two players, total.

Now compare that to the number of NFL draftees on any of Saban's Alabama teams.

1993 Wisconsin Badgers football team - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[short ornery norwegian]

for people who did not - or could not- read the whole story - here is the final paragraph:

"We're in the infant stages of building here, we feel like,'' said Fleck, who is 34-23 overall at Minnesota and 21-22 in the Big Ten. "We're off and running, that's for sure. We're not crawling anymore, we're running, but we've got a long way to go.''

Now, that could be interpreted different ways.

On one hand, you could read that as saying Fleck is planning for long-term sustained success - where the Gophers are in contention for conference titles on a regular basis.

On the other hand, you could say that Fleck is already in his 5th year at MN. If they still have a long way to go, when do they get there? It makes it sound like one of those MN-DOT construction projects that never seem to get done.

I remember Glen Mason getting a lot of flak for talking about "rebuilding" when he was in his 10th season at MN.

 

[Iceland12]

“According to Saban, process guarantees success. A good process produces good results. Likewise, if the process is off, the results will suffer. Focusing on the outcome is paradoxical. The more one emphasizes winning, the less he or she is able to concentrate on what actually causes success.”

Also, to paraphrase Saban " When you get a roster chock full of 4* and 5* players, your school lets any kid you want in, and your Conference does everything they can to help you schedule-wise, you don't need to emphasize winning.

It's damn near guaranteed."

 

[MennoSota]

Fleckism at its best. He is our very own spin doctor. Always an optimist.

He eventually intoxicates us with his Kool-Aid. As he has said, he is not for everyone. It’s either you love him or hate him.

He's actually a Lou Holtz clone.

 

[Some guy]

for people who did not - or could not- read the whole story - here is the final paragraph:

"We're in the infant stages of building here, we feel like,'' said Fleck, who is 34-23 overall at Minnesota and 21-22 in the Big Ten. "We're off and running, that's for sure. We're not crawling anymore, we're running, but we've got a long way to go.''

Now, that could be interpreted different ways.

On one hand, you could read that as saying Fleck is planning for long-term sustained success - where the Gophers are in contention for conference titles on a regular basis.

On the other hand, you could say that Fleck is already in his 5th year at MN. If they still have a long way to go, when do they get there? It makes it sound like one of those MN-DOT construction projects that never seem to get done.

I remember Glen Mason getting a lot of flak for talking about "rebuilding" when he was in his 10th season at MN.

There is a massive difference between being 11-2, 3-4, 8-4 and saying you’re beginning to build

and being 7-5, 7-5, 6-7 and rebuilding



building implies you’re not there yet (which is a different problem)
When Mason said rebuilding in year 10 following 7-5, 7-5, 6-7

the “re” implied they’ve already gotten as good as they’re going to get and trying to get there again. Building > rebuilding

 

[Gophers1992]

for people who did not - or could not- read the whole story - here is the final paragraph:

"We're in the infant stages of building here, we feel like,'' said Fleck, who is 34-23 overall at Minnesota and 21-22 in the Big Ten. "We're off and running, that's for sure. We're not crawling anymore, we're running, but we've got a long way to go.''

Now, that could be interpreted different ways.

On one hand, you could read that as saying Fleck is planning for long-term sustained success - where the Gophers are in contention for conference titles on a regular basis.

On the other hand, you could say that Fleck is already in his 5th year at MN. If they still have a long way to go, when do they get there? It makes it sound like one of those MN-DOT construction projects that never seem to get done.

I remember Glen Mason getting a lot of flak for talking about "rebuilding" when he was in his 10th season at MN.

Look at Iowa from 2010-2014. One could say that was a rebuilding period. The reality of programs like ours is we will never have sustained periods of dominance with no dropoff. We might go 6-6 next year, but that doesn't mean things can't move forward from there. If PJ is here 15-20+ years, there are going to be some down years, 5-7 type seasons. That's just how it goes for programs like ours, and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[WriterGoph]

for people who did not - or could not- read the whole story - here is the final paragraph:

"We're in the infant stages of building here, we feel like,'' said Fleck, who is 34-23 overall at Minnesota and 21-22 in the Big Ten. "We're off and running, that's for sure. We're not crawling anymore, we're running, but we've got a long way to go.''

Now, that could be interpreted different ways.

On one hand, you could read that as saying Fleck is planning for long-term sustained success - where the Gophers are in contention for conference titles on a regular basis.

On the other hand, you could say that Fleck is already in his 5th year at MN. If they still have a long way to go, when do they get there? It makes it sound like one of those MN-DOT construction projects that never seem to get done.

I remember Glen Mason getting a lot of flak for talking about "rebuilding" when he was in his 10th season at MN.

If Fleck is still saying we are in the infant stage in his 10th season, please let us know.

 

[MNVCGUY]

for people who did not - or could not- read the whole story - here is the final paragraph:

"We're in the infant stages of building here, we feel like,'' said Fleck, who is 34-23 overall at Minnesota and 21-22 in the Big Ten. "We're off and running, that's for sure. We're not crawling anymore, we're running, but we've got a long way to go.''

Now, that could be interpreted different ways.

On one hand, you could read that as saying Fleck is planning for long-term sustained success - where the Gophers are in contention for conference titles on a regular basis.

On the other hand, you could say that Fleck is already in his 5th year at MN. If they still have a long way to go, when do they get there? It makes it sound like one of those MN-DOT construction projects that never seem to get done.

I remember Glen Mason getting a lot of flak for talking about "rebuilding" when he was in his 10th season at MN.

To the Mason bit, he already had a contentious relationship with media and administration at that point, so when he talked rebuilding in year 10 it sounded hollow and was not received well.

Fans get caught up in the results and the record, coaches see the rest of the picture as well. Watched the movie Blue Chips the other night. Spoiler Alert (move was made in 1994) when Nolte is quiting his job as the coach he mentions that his best coaching job was the season before when the team finished under .500 because the players gave him everything they had. To fans, a season like that is a complete and total failure, to a coach the win/loss record may not tell the whole story of a season.

Obviously every coach knows they have to win to stay employed. But if all you care about is wins/losses it is going to be a pretty crappy existence. You have to find a way to enjoy the ride along the way, even if you have some ups and downs.

 

[SaintLouisGopher]

Also, to paraphrase Saban " When you get a roster chock full of 4* and 5* players, your school lets any kid you want in, and your Conference does everything they can to help you schedule-wise, you don't need to emphasize winning.

It's damn near guaranteed."

From what I’m reading sounds like Saban has always been a strong recruiter. I can’t find any class rankings for the Spartans in the 90’s when he was there. I suspect he wasn’t taking his pick of blue chippers though, at least early on.

 

[hungan1]

Look at Iowa from 2010-2014. One could say that was a rebuilding period. The reality of programs like ours is we will never have sustained periods of dominance with no dropoff. We might go 6-6 next year, but that doesn't mean things can't move forward from there. If PJ is here 15-20+ years, there are going to be some down years, 5-7 type seasons. That's just how it goes for programs like ours, and there's nothing wrong with it.

You nailed it.

Remember the famous/infamous PJ Fleck Zig-zag chart?

If you are a team in the middling tiers of the Big Ten, you will have a lot of zig-zags as the seasoned players on a good year graduate or leave the program. There will b drop-offs until the next-men-up get up to speed.

tOSU and Bama reload with high-end recruits with hardly any noticeable drop-offs.

 

[fair]

You nailed it.

Remember the famous/infamous PJ Fleck Zig-zag chart?

If you are a team in the middling tiers of the Big Ten, you will have a lot of zig-zags as the seasoned players on a good year graduate or leave the program. There will b drop-offs until the next-men-up get up to speed.

tOSU and Bama reload with high-end recruits with hardly any noticeable drop-offs.

View attachment 16177

As much as that chart has become a meme on here, you're exactly right. A key aspect I'd also like to point out is that the floor gets a bit higher with each drop-off. You look at teams like Wisconsin, Iowa, Penn State; their letdown years are typically low to mid-tier bowl games. We're definitely seeing this program on the same trajectory.