DEs for next year

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sonnygarcia

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I know some of you have expressed concern over our DE situation next year (with WVD leaving). Have any of you followed the progress of Raymond Henderson??? He was in the US Army AA game in 2005 and transferred to MN after a redshirt season at Tennessee. Was the outlook on him just way too high coming out of HS, or does he really have potential?? I remember reading in the STrib this fall he was scout team player of the week once. What has been the reason this kid has never flourished?
 

sonnygarcia said:
I know some of you have expressed concern over our DE situation next year (with WVD leaving). Have any of you followed the progress of Raymond Henderson??? He was in the US Army AA game in 2005 and transferred to MN after a redshirt season at Tennessee. Was the outlook on him just way too high coming out of HS, or does he really have potential?? I remember reading in the STrib this fall he was scout team player of the week once. What has been the reason this kid has never flourished?
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He had an illness that kept him from doing much prior to this year. He was listed at 3rd string on the depth chart (Rivals) and I haven't heard much discussion about him. It would be nice to see him realize the potential that was expected out of him in HS but it will take a great off season to get there.

Personally, I'm hoping or expecting that Anthony Jacobs will step up and take over that role. He was a 4 star recruit and the #1 player out of Minnesota in 2007. He played RB in HS and now he is 6'2" 300 lbs and still moves well.
 

don't get out much

There have been several stories in the newspaper and several posts here about his illness which set him back physically. We have McKinley and Kirksey and I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.
 

lawrence21 said:
There have been several stories in the newspaper and several posts here about his illness which set him back physically. We have McKinley and Kirksey and I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.
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Right, and the 9.5 sacks and position as 1st Team All Big Ten he achieved this year benefitted from those same players. The sack and forced fumble that Simoni Lawrence returned for a TD against Illinois was a result of lingering pressure from Montgomery. The hit that Van De Steeg put on Juice Williams that caused Collado's interception in the 4th quarter was because the Tackle and Juice had visions of Reid and Losli dancing in his head.

Where do you come up with this stuff? What basis do you have?
 

lawrence21 said:
There have been several stories in the newspaper and several posts here about his illness which set him back physically. We have McKinley and Kirksey and I would take Onwuachi over Vandesteeg any day. WVS was highly overrated after a freshman year in which he benefited from Anthony Montgomery, Daryl Reid and Mark Losli.
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Did you see any of the games this year? WVS was very good and at times, absolutely dominated his guy....
 


WVS had a very good year, what's with the hating on him? Anybody know how Terrell Combs or D.L. Wilhite progressed this year?
 


mkAz said:
WVS had a very good year, what's with the hating on him? Anybody know how Terrell Combs or D.L. Wilhite progressed this year?
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Combs is now practicing at TE.
 

What are the prospects for Jacobs? At that size, can he still play DE or will he move inside to DT?

I have the same thoughts as Grunkie, that with his size and potential, Jacobs could really be a star. He did not do a lot this year, however. Having a 300 lb DE that can still move could be a great asset.
 



bookend

So WVS had a nice bookend to his career, a good freshman year and a good senior year. Where exactly was he both sophomore and junior years? Where exactly will he be drafted in the NFL? How long will his NFL career be? When WVS is a highlighted player on your defense you know your defense is horrible (the D was much improved this year). This is why Brewster was brought in, to raise the talent level. As far as Onwuachi goes, he is a raw athlete. Onwuachi can bench 395 pounds, does a front squat of 510 and he has a 37-inch vertical jump and has speed.
 

lawrence21 said:
So WVS had a nice bookend to his career, a good freshman year and a good senior year. Where exactly was he both sophomore and junior years?
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Umm....he was second team all-conference as a sophomore....repeat, a sophomore. Tied for the league lead in sacks as a sophomore....repeat, a sophomore.
 

Glad to see other posters (nice Grunkie) have ripped lawrence21's idiotic comment about WVDS.

IMHO, WVDS is the 1 senior we will truly miss next year. Don't get me wrong, we'll have to replace some LBs and Simmons at TE, and Monroe and Kucek. But as much as those other seniors were solid contributors, none of them was a real game-changer the way WVDS was for us this season. Without WVDS, we easily lose at Ill and probably several of the other wins, too.

I like DO, but he hasn't been dominating. Jacobs did play a bit at the end of the year and looked decent at times. I do really like our DTs, with Brown & Small looking very solid this year and Kirksey on the rise, but I just don't know if we're going to have that difference-making pass-rushing DE next year. Hopefully someone can step up or we can recruit someone.
 

Willie played with a broken hand in 2007.
Anthony Jacobs, Brandon Kirksey, Cedrick McKinley, Derrick Onwuachi should all see a lot of time at DE in 2008. Henderson and Wilhite will provide some nice depth and talent.
 



WVS was a great player for us. You can't ignore that he was first-team big ten team.

However, I don't think we will have that huge of a drop off from him graduating as we are anticipating. We have a ton of depth and lots of raw talent at DE. We have Henderson, Onawachi, Jacobs, Garin, Combs, Kirksey, Wihlite, McKinely. A lot of these guys saw the field already this year and were big recruits with some talent out of high school.

With that many people competiting at a high level, whoever steps up will need to be a solid contributor. Worse case scenario is that no one really stands out and we have a deep rotation at that position where we can wear down the opponents o-linemen and make it harder for them to prepare in film study for facing multiple DE's.

I am more concerned about our DT depth in the future. After next year we lose Small, Brown, and Moen. Leaving us with Edwards, Strouth (tough competitor from what I have heard but not exactly a Big Ten run-stopper at 250 lbs right now), and it looks like Searcy coming in. That leaves us an injury away from big trouble and we need to get some DT's now to develop them up to playing weight, speed, awareness, etc for a few years from now.
 

I talked with Willie V at the Cragun's Golf Outing in Brainerd last July and he indicated Henderson had gained most of his weight back, but had lost alot of flexibility due to the illness. He indicated it's tough enough to lose 40 lbs and then add the loss of the other two components you need for a DE ( strength/flex) and it makes for a tough road back
 

goldfan24 said:
Willie played with a broken hand in 2007.
Anthony Jacobs, Brandon Kirksey, Cedrick McKinley, Derrick Onwuachi should all see a lot of time at DE in 2008. Henderson and Wilhite will provide some nice depth and talent.
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That's about the size of it!

* Henderson suffered a heat stroke that triggered a disease he stills suffers from. He now lives with chronic diarrhea and gas which makes it very hard for him to keep weight on (or get a date I'd imagine?). He's good for a few plays here and there but wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a break out season.
 

all right I confused his freshman season with his sophomore season. But if I read right he has 20 career sacks? 11 coming into this year. 9 this year? I think. Karon Riley had 29 sacks in 2 years. WVS had 2 good years in his college career and will never play a down in the NFL. Karon Riley only had 2 seasons because he transferred. Karon Rileys sacks equal out to 58 career sacks had he four full years. I never said Willie sucked but lets not make him out to be some god on the gridiron that will never be replaced. He is not NFL talent level and the fact that you tout him says a lot about the quality of our players, we need to bring in talent so that a kid like Vandesteeg never sees the field because he isn't good enough.
 

lawrence21 said:
we need to bring in talent so that a kid like Vandesteeg never sees the field because he isn't good enough.
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A first team all-conference defensive end is not good enough. Gotcha.

So if Karon Riley would've had a sixth and seventh year in college, he would've ended up with 58 career sacks? Makes sense.
 

Golden Elephant said:
Glad to see other posters (nice Grunkie) have ripped lawrence21's idiotic comment about WVDS.

IMHO, WVDS is the 1 senior we will truly miss next year. Don't get me wrong, we'll have to replace some LBs and Simmons at TE, and Monroe and Kucek. But as much as those other seniors were solid contributors, none of them was a real game-changer the way WVDS was for us this season. Without WVDS, we easily lose at Ill and probably several of the other wins, too.

I like DO, but he hasn't been dominating. Jacobs did play a bit at the end of the year and looked decent at times. I do really like our DTs, with Brown & Small looking very solid this year and Kirksey on the rise, but I just don't know if we're going to have that difference-making pass-rushing DE next year. Hopefully someone can step up or we can recruit someone.
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Kirskey is a DT too. He and Edwards both like like real players. Searcy will be here in 09 as well. That means that as of right now in 2010 we'll have Edwards and Kirskey, Searcy, and Jacobs and Whilite both have the size to play DT as well, plus we'll likely recruit a few DTs before then as well
 

1) Lawrence you're an idiot
2) WVD had two good years in his college career? How many good years has Onwauchi had?
3) I'd never before heard it called a benefit to have played next to Mark Losli
4) Karon Riley played four year full years (Not two as you suggest) just as WVD did
5) What does Karon Riley have to do with anything? Reggie White was much better than Karon Riley...So what?
 

Let me make 21's point in a way that's not disrespectful to one of our best players and doesn't piss everyone off.

The guy who fills Willie's shoes may not perform quite as well, but maybe does as we have some talent thats been waiting for snaps. But the bigger issue is that the Dline works as a unit. So overall even if we take a small step back at Willies spot he wasn't so good that there will be a huge drop off because the next guy will be at least OK and the rest of the line get's that much better. So maybe the sacks and pressure from Willie's spot aren't as good but overall I think we get more sacks, stops, and pressure.

And I think in college ball, because of graduations and maturing younger players, I don't think you can analyze a player loss in terms of the position. There's too much flux. You have to analyze the entire unit.
 

costa rican gopher

so you are admitting that there are players better than our very own Minnesota born William Vandesteeg? amazing, I thought he was awesome and there is no DE better than him, he was completely dominating that is why USC, Florida, OSU, Texas and everyone else was after him coming out of high school? Does anybody truly believe that Willie would start at any 1 of these Universities? And Karon Riley only played 2 years of college ball at the UofM not 4 as you suggest. Onwuachi has potential and athleticism and you don't need stats to prove you are good.
 

note to self:

Vandesteeg is off limits to talk about because he has gained god status. He is now as awesome as Mike Sherels was, we don't bad mouth Sherels. Will Sam Maresh be off limits if he turns out to be a bust? I guess we don't bad mouth Minnesota kids, unless they choose to play elsewhere than we can tear into them.
 

Just quit while you're way behind, Lawrence. You can't fix your idiotic comments and you lose credibility about anything you say now. Take a two-week vacation, let things cool down here, and then come back with something half-witted to say. If you don't think Willie was one of the top players to line up at DE for the Gophers in the past twenty years then you are not capable of adding to these message boards.
 

21, so by your arithmetic Eric Decker isn't good reciever just because he wasn't highly recruited. Marion Barber and Lawrence Maroney weren't highly recruited either. Last time I checked they aren't doing too bad. Players mature at different times. Some in high school, some once they hit campus. WVS is proven performer, that is why everyone is saying he is a big loss. There isn't a proven performer anywhere behind him. Potential doesn't equal performance.
 

GopherMac said:
If you don't think Willie was one of the top players to line up at DE for the Gophers in the past twenty years then you are not capable of adding to these message boards.
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WOW! We all have to like the same player?
 

You can say Decker and Vandesteeg are our best players and stat wise you can back that up. My point is would either of them start on a national championship team like Florida or USC? You can like them and that is fine but lets not pretend that there are no better players in the college game today. I personally believe neither one of them would smell the field on a #1 ranked team in the country. They were both our go to guys on O and on D respectively. My opinion is WVDS is not as good as people believe and I am entitled to that position. I have not taken any personal shots at any of you.
 

This has nothing to do with liking a player or not. I would think looking at the production the player had, the talent that surrounded the player, the scores of the games that were played, and other assorted factors. How many games that Willie played in were we down by double digits and teams were able to just run the ball at us? How many average players lined up next to him during his tenure? How many defensive coaches were there during his tenure?

Who cares if you like him or not!!!
 


lawrence21 said:
You can like them and that is fine but lets not pretend that there are no better players in the college game today.
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No one said that. You're the football mastermind that turned a thread about Raymond Henderson into I'll take Onwuachi over WDVS any day.

WDVS: 1st two seasons: 65 tackles; 17.5 TFLs; 10 sacks
DO: 1st two seaons: 32 tackles; 7 TFLs; 2 sacks
 

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