D Coordinator Firing is a Scapegoat, Plain and Simple

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I can't believe this worthless thread has gotten this far.

OP keeps referring to larger issues that PJ Fleck has but gives no hint as to what it is.

Are players not going to school?
Is there a major scandal?
Is he paying players?
Is he a slave-driving coach whom all of the assistants now hate because PJ is asking too much of them? Or is it the opposite? PJ lazy / doesn't care?


At this point it all seems like utter B.S.

Also, at the same time the OP is criticizing the move, others have wondered why it took this long, or are happy it finally happened.
 

I could argue that our lack of success that past 50 years has been due to the administration and every coach we fired was a scapegoat.

If the defense improves next year, it will be due to scheme and personnel, and everyone will say that Fleck made the right decision. If it doesn't improve, it will be the beginning of the end. The next chapter hasn't been written.
 

alchemy2u said:
Let's be rational about this. So you don't want change even if the defense is obviously not going in the right direction? As you says, if PJ knew the D was bad a month ago, don't you think that PJ has been working with the DC to try and correct those problems over that month? How long is he supposed to wait for the DC to correct the problem? PJ's job is to do what he think's is best for the team and he expects the DC to be able to handle the defense. It is ridiculous and naive to say the DC was a scapegoat, he wasn't doing his job up to the standards of a P5 coach and needed to be replaced.
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Yep. It's been widely reported and known, straight from Fleck himself as well, that he hires his Coordinators to be pretty much autonomous in planning and executing the offense and defense. He's not completely hand's off but gives them the autonomy and responsibility to get results. He's like the CEO and the Coordinators are COOs. The trend told him he needed to make a leadership change and he did.
 



Robb Smith was a doomed hire to begin with and we all seemed to know it, vaguely or openly. His track record was poor and trending poorer with better players at Arkansas and he mostly got hired because he was on the Schiano staff when Fleck first started coaching.

I'll be looking for Fleck to branch out from that tree with this next hire. I'm not confident he will. My examination of his obvious cohorts who don't already work for him show few options we should expect to improve a defense.
 

fmlizard said:
Robb Smith was a doomed hire to begin with and we all seemed to know it, vaguely or openly. His track record was poor and trending poorer with better players at Arkansas and he mostly got hired because he was on the Schiano staff when Fleck first started coaching.

I'll be looking for Fleck to branch out from that tree with this next hire. I'm not confident he will. My examination of his obvious cohorts who don't already work for him show few options we should expect to improve a defense.
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Is the Schiano tree all that good? The hire of the next D line coach and/or Defensive Coordinator should tell us if Fleck is Brewster 2.0.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

I think the interesting question is one of timing.

No one is arguing the defense had major issues, and Smith was on the hot seat. So, if we accept that Smith had to go, the question becomes - do you fire him now, or wait until after the season.

Firing him now allows the program to start looking for a replacement sooner. It also allows the interim coach to essentially audition for the job. If the defense shows noticeable improvement over the final weeks, maybe Rossi gets the job. Also, one could argue that firing Smith now shows that Fleck is being decisive and taking bold action to improve the team's major weakness.

on the other hand, firing Smith now could be seen as some as a sign of panic, or a knee-jerk reaction to the criticism of the team. ("It's not my fault.") letting him go after the season, which means another three weeks, could allow for a more orderly procession, and shouldn't cripple the hope of getting a quality replacement. also lets Smith go on somewhat of his own terms. pretty up the language so it doesn't sound like a firing ("seeking other opportunities" "taking the program in a different direction.)

so, there are pros and cons for firing now as opposed to after the season. One can only conclude that Fleck (and/or Fleck and Coyle) felt this was the best course of action for the team. and, I would NOT be shocked if ticket sales was a consideration.
 

TrueGopherFballfan#1 said:
I think making a change like this halfway through season 2 should not occur just yet. You are pretty much denying the fact that PJ's coaching and defensive tactics in his schemes and strategy are terrible in itself. Robb Smith obviously was not doing something right, but Fleck was not doing something right in his strategy to aid the coordinator. I think he is placing 100 percent of the defensive meltdowns all on Smith when in reality, Fleck has to be blamed for these issues as well. I think the defensive issues will still linger no matter who he brings in as coordinator unless Fleck fixes his tactics and strategies as well. Fleck still plays a big role in the defensive strategies and schemes and nothing improved in the last month. Instead of trying to fix his issues with the defensive coordinator, he just flat out fires the D coordinator halfway through "Year 1" and thinks all the issues will magically disappear. I really really hope this firing does benefit the Gophers. I want to be proven wrong. I really do. But in my opinion, firing Smith was the scapegoat to much larger issues stemming from Fleck that need to be addressed. If we were in year 4 or 5 and we were winning some games, but the defense was making bad plays at the worst times, then steps can be taken to fire the coordinator, but halfway through season 2 after giving up 50+ points, I think the issue stems beyond the D Coordinator at that point, and Fleck needs to look in mirror and figure his own stuff out.
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Is there any chance you're Robb Smith and now you've suddenly got some free time to browse message boards?
 



After painfully reading through all of this I have one conclusion - The OP is Robb Smith :rolleyes:
 

MNVCGUY said:
I'll be honest, your takes are really hard to follow and make heads and tails of but I will do my best. You are acting like this is a knee jerk reaction which it isn't. When a defense gets lit up week after week the coordinator almost always gets fired.

You keep posting all this vague information about Fleck being the problem and him trying to use this move to deflect blame away from himself when the reality is that what happened here is exactly what happens at most other programs when one side of the ball is failing to get it done week after week.

What you seem to be implying is that Fleck was keeping Smith from running the defense the way he wanted to. Maybe you are super plugged in to know what goes on in the meeting rooms on a daily basis but I find it hard to believe you have that kind of access and as I said in another post I would be really surprised to see Fleck being heavily involved on defense because his entire coaching and playing background is on offense. Not saying Fleck doesn't have influence on both sides of the ball but the head coach simply doesn't have the time to completely control the gameplan on one side of the ball or the other because they have too many other weekly responsibilities to devote that kind of time to gameplanning.

What Fleck did in regards to Smith is not the same as what Brewster did with his revolving door coordinators.

Offense
2007-2008 - Dunbar - Brew made his first critical error hiring a spread guy who went away from what had been very effective on offense for years here in favor a more exciting spread attack that they were never able to recruit the receivers to run.
2009 - Fisch - Dunbar "resigned" but he would have been fired. Brew interviewed Horton but made a critical mistake again and decided on Fisch who came in and tried to run a scheme that was setup for the NFL and had no chance of working in college.
2010 - Horton - The best decision Brew made in his run on offense was finally hiring Horton a year later but by then it was too late for him to undo the damage done by the previous bad decisions on that side of the ball.

Defense
2007 - Withers - Came in with a really complex system but he wasn't fired, he chose to make a lateral move for to North Carolina after the season. Move made sense for him because he was from out there.
2008 - Roof - Hired Ted Roof who came in and did some good things before jumping ship when he got offered double what he was making at the U.
2009-2010 - Cosgrove - Was never all that popular with fans but at least provided some stability

So in all of that the only coordinator Brew "fired" was Dunbar but he made some mistakes in who he hired. Withers, Roof both left on their own. Fisch was a horrible decision and he went back to the NFL after one year. The coordinator revolving door under Brew was a big part of why he got fired when he did but it wasn't like he was just firing coaches left and right.
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Excellent post. As you suspect, I think the OP has some other motive to post the scapegoat theory. It could be that he just does not like PJ and is using this as another example of why. We have spent way too much effort in trying to explain it to him.
 

alchemy2u said:
Excellent post. As you suspect, I think the OP has some other motive to post the scapegoat theory. It could be that he just does not like PJ and is using this as another example of why. We have spent way too much effort in trying to explain it to him.
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Exactly. OP was first post on GH since 2015. Must have an axe to grind

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

TrueGopherFballfan#1 said:
I think making a change like this halfway through season 2 should not occur just yet. You are pretty much denying the fact that PJ's coaching and defensive tactics in his schemes and strategy are terrible in itself. Robb Smith obviously was not doing something right, but Fleck was not doing something right in his strategy to aid the coordinator. I think he is placing 100 percent of the defensive meltdowns all on Smith when in reality, Fleck has to be blamed for these issues as well. I think the defensive issues will still linger no matter who he brings in as coordinator unless Fleck fixes his tactics and strategies as well. Fleck still plays a big role in the defensive strategies and schemes and nothing improved in the last month. Instead of trying to fix his issues with the defensive coordinator, he just flat out fires the D coordinator halfway through "Year 1" and thinks all the issues will magically disappear. I really really hope this firing does benefit the Gophers. I want to be proven wrong. I really do. But in my opinion, firing Smith was the scapegoat to much larger issues stemming from Fleck that need to be addressed. If we were in year 4 or 5 and we were winning some games, but the defense was making bad plays at the worst times, then steps can be taken to fire the coordinator, but halfway through season 2 after giving up 50+ points, I think the issue stems beyond the D Coordinator at that point, and Fleck needs to look in mirror and figure his own stuff out.
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How do you know he hasn't been trying to work with Smith to get things fixed? And when has he said all the issue will magically disappear? You don't provide any examples to back up what you're saying.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
I think the interesting question is one of timing.

No one is arguing the defense had major issues, and Smith was on the hot seat. So, if we accept that Smith had to go, the question becomes - do you fire him now, or wait until after the season.

Firing him now allows the program to start looking for a replacement sooner. It also allows the interim coach to essentially audition for the job. If the defense shows noticeable improvement over the final weeks, maybe Rossi gets the job. Also, one could argue that firing Smith now shows that Fleck is being decisive and taking bold action to improve the team's major weakness.

on the other hand, firing Smith now could be seen as some as a sign of panic, or a knee-jerk reaction to the criticism of the team. ("It's not my fault.") letting him go after the season, which means another three weeks, could allow for a more orderly procession, and shouldn't cripple the hope of getting a quality replacement. also lets Smith go on somewhat of his own terms. pretty up the language so it doesn't sound like a firing ("seeking other opportunities" "taking the program in a different direction.)

so, there are pros and cons for firing now as opposed to after the season. One can only conclude that Fleck (and/or Fleck and Coyle) felt this was the best course of action for the team. and, I would NOT be shocked if ticket sales was a consideration.
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I would agree if ... the defense didn't look like total chaos back there.

Horton beat Iowa after Brewster, I honestly belive if only because the change let the players exhale and Horton had the freedom to just get everyone relaxed and having fun again.

Illinois was just such a jail brake.... gotta do something.
 

Face The Facts said:
I can't believe this worthless thread has gotten this far.

OP keeps referring to larger issues that PJ Fleck has but gives no hint as to what it is.

Are players not going to school?
Is there a major scandal?
Is he paying players?
Is he a slave-driving coach whom all of the assistants now hate because PJ is asking too much of them? Or is it the opposite? PJ lazy / doesn't care?


At this point it all seems like utter B.S.

Also, at the same time the OP is criticizing the move, others have wondered why it took this long, or are happy it finally happened.
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I feel your pain, although I do agree with some of what he said
 

Not in this world, but imagine Fleck as head coach and Claeys as DC and assistant-head coach. We win some.
 

GopherVotary said:
There are pills for that now.
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Red or blue?
cb3fc27e8cb35578bf3049b7c0859ae8.jpg
 

Welcome to football - this is how it works. Something needed to be done on defense. You have a couple choices: one choice is to try a new defensive coordinator to see if that can fix the defense. Another more radical choice is to fire the head coach. If getting a new DC works, then you've saved yourself all the turmoil of getting a new head coach. Fleck's seat is going to be pretty hot next year, and it's possible he won't be the head coach in 2020. Usually, the less radical choice will be made to change coordinators before changing head coaches.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Another point worth noting: Kansas fired its head coach after this past weekend. The athletic director cited the moved up timetable for recruit signings (December) and "the way things are now in college football" with the decision to do it now rather than after the season ends.

I think that's a fair point worth considering in our situation too. Shows recruits that Fleck is deadly serious about fixing it, and NOW, rather than waiting.
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Didn't Brewster get canned mid-season? Was he a scapegoat?
Smith was fired because he wasn't doing his job at an elite level. The data proves it. Nothing scapegoat about the data.
 

Trending towards worst defense in a league that includes Rutgers and Illinois. Smith isn't a scapegoat- he is the goat.
 

alchemy2u said:
As you suspect, I think the OP has some other motive to post the scapegoat theory. It could be that he just does not like PJ and is using this as another example of why. We have spent way too much effort in trying to explain it to him.
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Bingo!
 

RodentRampage said:
Welcome to football - this is how it works. Something needed to be done on defense. You have a couple choices: one choice is to try a new defensive coordinator to see if that can fix the defense. Another more radical choice is to fire the head coach. If getting a new DC works, then you've saved yourself all the turmoil of getting a new head coach. Fleck's seat is going to be pretty hot next year, and it's possible he won't be the head coach in 2020. Usually, the less radical choice will be made to change coordinators before changing head coaches.
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I don't think Fleck's seat gets that hot next year. I think the fan base will see the young players on defense and realize it will take a year or two.
 

Face The Facts said:
I can't believe this worthless thread has gotten this far.

OP keeps referring to larger issues that PJ Fleck has but gives no hint as to what it is.

Are players not going to school?
Is there a major scandal?
Is he paying players?
Is he a slave-driving coach whom all of the assistants now hate because PJ is asking too much of them? Or is it the opposite? PJ lazy / doesn't care?


At this point it all seems like utter B.S.

Also, at the same time the OP is criticizing the move, others have wondered why it took this long, or are happy it finally happened.
Click to expand...

I am not saying there is some underlying scandal, I just watch this team week in and week out, and I see a poorly coached team. I guess I should have been more specific on the "issues" phrasing. I simply mean coaching issues from players being lined up in poor positions, bad scheme and play calling, and I think that all stems beyond the D coordinator. And again, it is an opinion. It is just what I see on a weekly basis. I just a see a poorly coached team that is not all Smith's fault. The offense is ok and has potential, but the defense has been poorly coached and that stems to the head coach as well. A specific example of an issue that stems beyond Smith is the defensive recruits that Fleck recruited, and they have not been improving nor do they show a lot promise (One or two players do show promise like Durr and Smith, however). Sure they are young, but they have deescalated in performance every week and gave up 55 points to Illinois. Certainly these players were learning a system under Smith, but they were recruited by Fleck and that goes back on him in the end. So I see one issue beyond Smith and that is recruiting so far. That could change. These players could very well improve over the next 2-4 years, but these players were initially recruited and coached up by Fleck, and they have not improved over halfway into the season. That is on Fleck too.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think the interesting question is one of timing.

No one is arguing the defense had major issues, and Smith was on the hot seat. So, if we accept that Smith had to go, the question becomes - do you fire him now, or wait until after the season.

Firing him now allows the program to start looking for a replacement sooner. It also allows the interim coach to essentially audition for the job. If the defense shows noticeable improvement over the final weeks, maybe Rossi gets the job. Also, one could argue that firing Smith now shows that Fleck is being decisive and taking bold action to improve the team's major weakness.

on the other hand, firing Smith now could be seen as some as a sign of panic, or a knee-jerk reaction to the criticism of the team. ("It's not my fault.") letting him go after the season, which means another three weeks, could allow for a more orderly procession, and shouldn't cripple the hope of getting a quality replacement. also lets Smith go on somewhat of his own terms. pretty up the language so it doesn't sound like a firing ("seeking other opportunities" "taking the program in a different direction.)

so, there are pros and cons for firing now as opposed to after the season. One can only conclude that Fleck (and/or Fleck and Coyle) felt this was the best course of action for the team. and, I would NOT be shocked if ticket sales was a consideration.
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My sense is Fleck felt the need to make the move because not only had he lost confidence in Smith as DC, but he saw clear signs Smith had lost the players. When you have two very strong talented LBs who have been performing but looked lost Saturday, you know you have a deeper problem. Hat's off to Fleck for doing so.
 

TrueGopherFballfan#1 said:
I am not saying there is some underlying scandal, I just watch this team week in and week out, and I see a poorly coached team. I guess I should have been more specific on the "issues" phrasing. I simply mean coaching issues from players being lined up in poor positions, bad scheme and play calling, and I think that all stems beyond the D coordinator. And again, it is an opinion. It is just what I see on a weekly basis. I just a see a poorly coached team that is not all Smith's fault. The offense is ok and has potential, but the defense has been poorly coached and that stems to the head coach as well. A specific example of an issue that stems beyond Smith is the defensive recruits that Fleck recruited, and they have not been improving nor do they show a lot promise (One or two players do show promise like Durr and Smith, however). Sure they are young, but they have deescalated in performance every week and gave up 55 points to Illinois. Certainly these players were learning a system under Smith, but they were recruited by Fleck and that goes back on him in the end. So I see one issue beyond Smith and that is recruiting so far. That could change. These players could very well improve over the next 2-4 years, but these players were initially recruited and coached up by Fleck, and they have not improved over halfway into the season. That is on Fleck too.
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So you are saying much of Fleck's issue is the players he's recruited on defense that have not improved other than Smith (T or OJ?) and Durr.

The offense despite losing RB#1 and RB#2 and now possibly RB#3 is scoring point, and they are doing okay and has potential (3 freshman players of the week in 9 weeks).
But overall, poorly coached team.
 

Face The Facts said:
So you are saying much of Fleck's issue is the players he's recruited on defense that have not improved other than Smith (T or OJ?) and Durr.

The offense despite losing RB#1 and RB#2 and now possibly RB#3 is scoring point, and they are doing okay and has potential (3 freshman players of the week in 9 weeks).
But overall, poorly coached team.
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Yes! I see potential in individual players, but I do see a poorly coached team as of right now overall, yes! Especially on defense. But there is potential. That is the whole point I am making here. This young team has potential, and some players show potential, but the team is doing bad right now. Let the process play out and see what happens before you start firing coordinators and blaming bad coaching on one individual halfway through year 2. I think this team could, COULD, be good in a couple years so why fire a D Coordinator now when there are coaching issues throughout the entire staff, and these issues could stem from the fact that they are young and inexperiened. I mean the team is 4-5, allows 40 to 50+ per game to bad teams, and is 10th in the Big Ten in total offense. I would say right now, overall, this team is poorly coached. But it could be mainly because this team is young and all that jazz that Fleck states in his weekly press conferences, but in a young team, a lot of players are not adapting and correcting their mistakes halfway through the season. It is very concerning!
 


I'm starting to think Bryce Paup knew what he was doing when he got out of Dodge. It seems he saw how horrible Smith was as a DC and he opted to walk rather than work under incompetence.
 

TrueGopherFballfan#1 said:
The offense is ok and has potential, but the defense has been poorly coached and that stems to the head coach as well. A specific example of an issue that stems beyond Smith is the defensive recruits that Fleck recruited, and they have not been improving nor do they show a lot promise (One or two players do show promise like Durr and Smith, however).
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Durr was not a PJ recruit.


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GFBfan said:
Durr was not a PJ recruit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yeh, he basically says the Fleck recruits don't show promise, but then cites guys who were on defense as making progress, and then includes Durr who was not.

In the end, I'm thinking it might be Robb Smith himself (or Bryce Paup).
 

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