D Coordinator Firing is a Scapegoat, Plain and Simple

[RolGnav]

How do a majority of random internet sports fans come up with the same conclusion as Coach Fleck, without even consulting him on it? It's obvious those fans saw the same thing Fleck saw. I respect Fleck even more now because the usual Minnesota nice person would leave it till after the season (only 3 more games) to make the move... but nope, Fleck ain't having non of that... and I like him even more.

 

[caliGopher]

What the hell is your point? Mine was they are not young and getting better.

Mine was they don’t have any talent, so how can they be better. 247sports talent rankings are all knowing.


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[caliGopher]

You are stuck in 2017 man. That is when Talent Rankings mattered. This is 2018 - age of the players is now what matters.


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Thanks. I’ll make sure to ignore that stat until it is deemed relevant again.


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[Uffda]

Is This Kanye West?

Nope. You want to keep consistency in the coaching staff for as long as possible. We are only halfway through year two and are having immense issues especially on defense that need to be fixed, but these coaches are still young in their tenure here at the U. You let these things play out before you start firing individual coaches. It throws off the process. You either do not fire anybody and let the process play out and keep consistency in the coaching staff, which is crucial for the players, or you fire everyone and start over. That is just how it is.

Are you Kanye West or are you just not taking your needed medications?

 

[alchemy2u]

I completely agree. But his solution to fixing it is flat out firing the coordinator three weeks after we knew the defense was disastrous. It was a clear problem almost a month ago, and Fleck did nothing. Fleck is still the head coach, and I highly doubt Smith was the sole person responsible for the schemes and adjustment strategies after the Maryland game to move forward. It was a month of disastrous games of allowing 40 to 50+ points. Fleck definitely had influence and responsibility on the defense in that time to make fixes and nothing improved. It deescalated.

Let's be rational about this. So you don't want change even if the defense is obviously not going in the right direction? As you says, if PJ knew the D was bad a month ago, don't you think that PJ has been working with the DC to try and correct those problems over that month? How long is he supposed to wait for the DC to correct the problem? PJ's job is to do what he think's is best for the team and he expects the DC to be able to handle the defense. It is ridiculous and naive to say the DC was a scapegoat, he wasn't doing his job up to the standards of a P5 coach and needed to be replaced.

 

[Rolling with Gophers]

You are doing it wrong. On this board, we cherry-pick the metric (talent ranking, age, record, etc.) to use for evaluating a team based on how it impacts a specific narrative. The rules are as follows:

1. For an opponent this year, pick the metric that makes the team look as strong as possible.
2. For the 2016 Gophers, pick the metric that makes the team look as weak as possible.
3. For the 2018 Gophers, it gets tricky. You need to overstate performance well enough to claim improvement and success, but understate the quality of players so as to build in an excuse for any performance standard applied by someone who isn't sophisticated enough to understand that it doesn't matter whether we win or lose football games.

Good one...I’m still laughing

 

[MrC]

We would have all shat a Subaru if Smith had been retained past the Monday following season's end. It had to be done. He's the 3rd highest paid public employee in the state and his unit is performing at a historically poor level.

LOL. Candidate for 2018 best new metaphor.

 

[Spoofin]

You are doing it wrong. On this board, we cherry-pick the metric (talent ranking, age, record, etc.) to use for evaluating a team based on how it impacts a specific narrative. The rules are as follows:

1. For an opponent this year, pick the metric that makes the team look as strong as possible.
2. For the 2016 Gophers, pick the metric that makes the team look as weak as possible.
3. For the 2018 Gophers, it gets tricky. You need to overstate performance well enough to claim improvement and success, but understate the quality of players so as to build in an excuse for any performance standard applied by someone who isn't sophisticated enough to understand that it doesn't matter whether we win or lose football games.

Well done.
This gave me instant flashbacks to last year post the MD game where it was repeatedly explained to all how it was unrealistic to expect us to compete with them due to their incredible talent. Now this year we get of course Purdue is better just look at their age.

Your post was funny - and so very true. Gold.


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[Herd]

Learning your keys, maintaining your responsibility, playing fast, trusting your eyes, doing your 1/11th . . . is training camp stuff with lots of coaching involved. I don’t expect these fundamentals to make significant improvements in 2018.

Playing with effort, intensity and greater purpose can make an improvement right away if you have the kids attention and their buy in. That’s the area that could change immediately. Who knows where theses kids heads are.

For everyone lamenting talent, fix the other two areas first. There certainly isn’t a talent gap wit IL IMO. I’ll beat your “talent” every time if I have well educated players on the defensive plan who are playing together with purpose.

 

[GopherVotary]

He's the 3rd highest paid public employee in the state and his unit is performing at a historically poor level.

There are pills for that now.

 

[Mulligan]

Learning your keys, maintaining your responsibility, playing fast, trusting your eyes, doing your 1/11th . . . is training camp stuff with lots of coaching involved. I don’t expect these fundamentals to make significant improvements in 2018.

Playing with effort, intensity and greater purpose can make an improvement right away if you have the kids attention and their buy in. That’s the area that could change immediately. Who knows where theses kids heads are.

For everyone lamenting talent, fix the other two areas first. There certainly isn’t a talent gap wit IL IMO. I’ll beat your “talent” every time if I have well educated players on the defensive plan who are playing together with purpose.

That's what I keep wondering about. Got to be really demoralizing to watch people break off long touchdown after long touchdown. That's when PJ's tactics can backfire. Doesn't matter if the usual people are PO'd and snarky on GH if he hasn't lost the players. But if they go, "What a crock of BS," it's depression time again. Still don't sense that it's happened. Certainly am hoping we'll see an aggressive defense and a running attack against Purdue.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I have no idea what the original post is supposed to mean.

The offense has shown promise.

The defense stinks and is arguably getting worse.

Firing the defensive coordinator would seem to make sense.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I have no idea what the original post is supposed to mean.

The offense has shown promise.

The defense stinks and is arguably getting worse.

Firing the defensive coordinator would seem to make sense.

I get where he was coming from in theory. Best case scenario you want to keep continuity in your coaching staff, but when you are getting destroyed the way our defense was the DC has to go. Firing Smith won't solve all the issues but it is a necessary step in the right direction.

What Fleck did is the norm in coaching at most places. What we had under Kill was not. By all accounts Limegrover should have been relieved of his duties as the OC but we all knew that with Kill as the head coach that was never going to happen so the offense sputtered and was very average to below average during those years. One of the first things Claeys did when he was named the full-time head coach was to fire Limegrover.

Sometimes a new voice does the trick sometimes it doesn't but when you are getting rolled week after week on defense and especially when you have an offense that is showing some signs of life a change had to be made.

 

[watertown 1987 guy n]

I am in favor of paragraphs.

I agree. Funny thing about paragraphs, it forces the writer to not ramble on and write what can be written in just few sentences.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I get where he was coming from in theory. Best case scenario you want to keep continuity in your coaching staff, but when you are getting destroyed the way our defense was the DC has to go. Firing Smith won't solve all the issues but it is a necessary step in the right direction.

What Fleck did is the norm in coaching at most places. What we had under Kill was not. By all accounts Limegrover should have been relieved of his duties as the OC but we all knew that with Kill as the head coach that was never going to happen so the offense sputtered and was very average to below average during those years. One of the first things Claeys did when he was named the full-time head coach was to fire Limegrover.

Sometimes a new voice does the trick sometimes it doesn't but when you are getting rolled week after week on defense and especially when you have an offense that is showing some signs of life a change had to be made.

Yeah I always thought it was a good sign that TC fired Limegrover, at least a good choice. We saw what Limegrover was going to offer as an OC, it was not fun.

 

[Desertbobcat]

First: Fleck doesn't bring his defensive staff with him from WM.

Second: huge turnover in defense. staff after year one.

Third: disastrous second defensive season.

Fourth: fire defensive coordinator.

What would the offense look like if this situation was reversed. A cluster f.....!

Flect is at a make or break point in his career here. His coaching culture is going to be severely tested by trying to hire a def. coordinator. Coaches who hire either "yes" men or "friends" don't last.

Minnesota is not going to get the type of defensive players that can stop Ia Wide Open spread game. those athletes are very hard to find, especially here for Minnesota. A Defensive coordinator that's worth his soul is going to know that you have to marry up the offense with the defense in order to have a sound defense. Why do you think Fleck kept putting green in as a wildcat quarterback so often against Illinois he wanted to run the football and keep his defense off the field. You don't have a sound offense scheme if you have to abandon it to run the football. Just put Green as your tailback and keep all your options to throw or pass in play.

Bottom line- Way to many red flags

 

[Section2]

First: Fleck doesn't bring his defensive staff with him from WM.

Second: huge turnover in defense. staff after year one.

Third: disastrous second defensive season.

Fourth: fire defensive coordinator.

What would the offense look like if this situation was reversed. A cluster f.....!

Flect is at a make or break point in his career here. His coaching culture is going to be severely tested by trying to hire a def. coordinator. Coaches who hire either "yes" men or "friends" don't last.

Minnesota is not going to get the type of defensive players that can stop Ia Wide Open spread game. those athletes are very hard to find, especially here for Minnesota. A Defensive coordinator that's worth his soul is going to know that you have to marry up the offense with the defense in order to have a sound defense. Why do you think Fleck kept putting green in as a wildcat quarterback so often against Illinois he wanted to run the football and keep his defense off the field. You don't have a sound offense scheme if you have to abandon it to run the football. Just put Green as your tailback and keep all your options to throw or pass in play.

Bottom line- Way to many red flags

+1. I think Fleck needs to ease up on making his first priority for coaches be that they can repeat nekton and elite regularly in press conferences. Get good people, get great coaches, worry less about whether they love PJ Fleck's culture.

 

[TrueGopherFballfan#1]

Let's be rational about this. So you don't want change even if the defense is obviously not going in the right direction? As you says, if PJ knew the D was bad a month ago, don't you think that PJ has been working with the DC to try and correct those problems over that month? How long is he supposed to wait for the DC to correct the problem? PJ's job is to do what he think's is best for the team and he expects the DC to be able to handle the defense. It is ridiculous and naive to say the DC was a scapegoat, he wasn't doing his job up to the standards of a P5 coach and needed to be replaced.

I think making a change like this halfway through season 2 should not occur just yet. You are pretty much denying the fact that PJ's coaching and defensive tactics in his schemes and strategy are terrible in itself. Robb Smith obviously was not doing something right, but Fleck was not doing something right in his strategy to aid the coordinator. I think he is placing 100 percent of the defensive meltdowns all on Smith when in reality, Fleck has to be blamed for these issues as well. I think the defensive issues will still linger no matter who he brings in as coordinator unless Fleck fixes his tactics and strategies as well. Fleck still plays a big role in the defensive strategies and schemes and nothing improved in the last month. Instead of trying to fix his issues with the defensive coordinator, he just flat out fires the D coordinator halfway through "Year 1" and thinks all the issues will magically disappear. I really really hope this firing does benefit the Gophers. I want to be proven wrong. I really do. But in my opinion, firing Smith was the scapegoat to much larger issues stemming from Fleck that need to be addressed. If we were in year 4 or 5 and we were winning some games, but the defense was making bad plays at the worst times, then steps can be taken to fire the coordinator, but halfway through season 2 after giving up 50+ points, I think the issue stems beyond the D Coordinator at that point, and Fleck needs to look in mirror and figure his own stuff out.

 

[Panthadad2]

I'm old enough to have seen many firings first hand; and in my case, a few people I wish I would have fired earlier instead of being prideful by hanging on and trying to "make it work". It would have been better for both parties. These things almost always build-up over a long time and aren't rash, even though it might seem that way to outsiders. All we know is that the defensive results have been terrible which seems to justify this.

 

[TrueGopherFballfan#1]

The idea of the OP is to wait until year four and if you’re still giving up yards and points near a historical level that is when you make a move with a coordinator.

Though it might not make any difference at that time since the HC is probably going to be fired anyway.

SMH

I am not necessarily advocating to wait until year 4 to make a move, I am mainly stating this firing was to shift blame on issues that extend beyond the D coordinator. I am concerned that Fleck is not as good of a coach as some people think and will not resolve his own defensive issues. We could hypothetically bring in Bama's D coordinator, but would still struggle as a program under Fleck if issues are not resolved beyond the D coordinator. This team has issues that will not magically disappear with an All-Star D coordinator. I only hope that Fleck figures out his own problems by year 4 because his plans, schemes and coaching tactics directly influence the D coordinator. The coordinator is not completely independent in his coaching of the defense. It is the head coach at the helm of it all. My OP is a notion of concern and is stating that Fleck is essentially placing blame on issues beyond the D coordinator having to do with the defense. And if we get a consistent D coordinator and Fleck ends making some positive changes in his coaching, awesome! I will be ecstatic! But this firing of a coordinator only halfway through season 2 is a slippery slope to turning into what Brewster did: quickly getting rid of coordinators to shift blame from the real person causing the issues, and hopefully bringing in a coordinator that will save the team. That did not turn out well, and I am worried Fleck will keep doing the same thing Brewster did once something does not go right defensively or offensively, and the media starts getting on his back for the performance of the team.

 

[alchemy2u]

I think making a change like this halfway through season 2 should not occur just yet. You are pretty much denying the fact that PJ's coaching and defensive tactics in his schemes and strategy are terrible in itself. Robb Smith obviously was not doing something right, but Fleck was not doing something right in his strategy to aid the coordinator. I think he is placing 100 percent of the defensive meltdowns all on Smith when in reality, Fleck has to be blamed for these issues as well. I think the defensive issues will still linger no matter who he brings in as coordinator unless Fleck fixes his tactics and strategies as well. Fleck still plays a big role in the defensive strategies and schemes and nothing improved in the last month. Instead of trying to fix his issues with the defensive coordinator, he just flat out fires the D coordinator halfway through "Year 1" and thinks all the issues will magically disappear. I really really hope this firing does benefit the Gophers. I want to be proven wrong. I really do. But in my opinion, firing Smith was the scapegoat to much larger issues stemming from Fleck that need to be addressed. If we were in year 4 or 5 and we were winning some games, but the defense was making bad plays at the worst times, then steps can be taken to fire the coordinator, but halfway through season 2 after giving up 50+ points, I think the issue stems beyond the D Coordinator at that point, and Fleck needs to look in mirror and figure his own stuff out.

No one is saying that PJ is not accepting some of the blame. He has the responsibility to fix it fast! let's look at a simple analogy: If you are driving to Chicago it is more relaxing and better for milage if you keep a consistent course as you go, but if you realize that you made a wrong turn and are heading to Omaha then you better throw consistency out the window and turn the car to Chicago! You are ignoring the possibility that PJ is competent enough to have been working on improving the defense over the last year since the failures in the games from last year. If your driver won't turn to Chicago then you need to change drivers.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I'm still wrestling with the idea that the coordinator of a bad defense is a "scapegoat" when they get fired for bad defense.

What was that guy responsible for?

 

[TrueGopherFballfan#1]

I'm still wrestling with the idea that the coordinator of a bad defense is a "scapegoat" when they get fired for bad defense.

What was that guy responsible for?

I am not saying Smith had issues, but I am concerned there are issues with Fleck and his entire coaching philosophy that are being ignored and throwing it all on the D coordinator. I know it is an unpopular opinion, but it is my opinion and I am worried we could turn into Brewster 2.0.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I am not saying Smith had issues, but I am concerned there are issues with Fleck and his entire coaching philosophy that are being ignored and throwing it all on the D coordinator. I know it is an unpopular opinion, but it is my opinion and I am worried we could turn into Brewster 2.0.

Like what though, and what makes you think that?

The offense has shown improvement.... does that have something to do with coaching philosophy, or are we just picking and choosing?

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I think making a change like this halfway through season 2 should not occur just yet. You are pretty much denying the fact that PJ's coaching and defensive tactics in his schemes and strategy are terrible in itself. Robb Smith obviously was not doing something right, but Fleck was not doing something right in his strategy to aid the coordinator. I think he is placing 100 percent of the defensive meltdowns all on Smith when in reality, Fleck has to be blamed for these issues as well. I think the defensive issues will still linger no matter who he brings in as coordinator unless Fleck fixes his tactics and strategies as well. Fleck still plays a big role in the defensive strategies and schemes and nothing improved in the last month. Instead of trying to fix his issues with the defensive coordinator, he just flat out fires the D coordinator halfway through "Year 1" and thinks all the issues will magically disappear. I really really hope this firing does benefit the Gophers. I want to be proven wrong. I really do. But in my opinion, firing Smith was the scapegoat to much larger issues stemming from Fleck that need to be addressed. If we were in year 4 or 5 and we were winning some games, but the defense was making bad plays at the worst times, then steps can be taken to fire the coordinator, but halfway through season 2 after giving up 50+ points, I think the issue stems beyond the D Coordinator at that point, and Fleck needs to look in mirror and figure his own stuff out.

Like what? You keep saying this but fail to provide examples. Fleck is more of an offensive coach, but he is hands off with both of his coordinators. Fleck is also the lead recruiter for everyone, and he has recruited heavily on the defensive side of the ball for next season, including two more JUCO defensive lineman. I wouldn't be surprised to see a JUCO DB added to the mix as well.

Several have provided issues with Smith's schemes on here. I think personnel is still the #1 issue, but the schemes were not helping. This defense lacks talent at DL and DB right now, but it doesn't lack so much talent that it should be getting shredded by Illinois, or even Nebraska the way they did. That's on the defensive coordinator, who was trending the same way he was at his previous job.

Fleck gets one shot at this. If he fails here, it may take him a long time to get another chance at a P5 head coaching job, if ever. He recognized a problem and is doing what he thinks is right to fix it.

 

[alchemy2u]

Just read this thread and learn about some of the problems on defense.
http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?84980-Two-constants-in-defensive-breakdowns

 

[MaxyJR1]

Like what though, and what makes you think that?

The offense has shown improvement.... does that have something to do with coaching philosophy, or are we just picking and choosing?

Exactly. The current personnel on defense doesn't fit what Fleck wants to do. Fleck thinks he can recruit and eventually have a top notch DL.

 

[salzie]

How many coaches did fleck fire back at western mich? We hired the some dude who put together aMAC team with the best talent in the MAC. Could just admit we screwed up and go get a real coach with a real staff with a real history of success at the BCS level.

No ****, I can't believe they didn't even call Nick Saban

 

[MNVCGUY]

I am not necessarily advocating to wait until year 4 to make a move, I am mainly stating this firing was to shift blame on issues that extend beyond the D coordinator. I am concerned that Fleck is not as good of a coach as some people think and will not resolve his own defensive issues. We could hypothetically bring in Bama's D coordinator, but would still struggle as a program under Fleck if issues are not resolved beyond the D coordinator. This team has issues that will not magically disappear with an All-Star D coordinator. I only hope that Fleck figures out his own problems by year 4 because his plans, schemes and coaching tactics directly influence the D coordinator. The coordinator is not completely independent in his coaching of the defense. It is the head coach at the helm of it all. My OP is a notion of concern and is stating that Fleck is essentially placing blame on issues beyond the D coordinator having to do with the defense. And if we get a consistent D coordinator and Fleck ends making some positive changes in his coaching, awesome! I will be ecstatic! But this firing of a coordinator only halfway through season 2 is a slippery slope to turning into what Brewster did: quickly getting rid of coordinators to shift blame from the real person causing the issues, and hopefully bringing in a coordinator that will save the team. That did not turn out well, and I am worried Fleck will keep doing the same thing Brewster did once something does not go right defensively or offensively, and the media starts getting on his back for the performance of the team.

I'll be honest, your takes are really hard to follow and make heads and tails of but I will do my best. You are acting like this is a knee jerk reaction which it isn't. When a defense gets lit up week after week the coordinator almost always gets fired.

You keep posting all this vague information about Fleck being the problem and him trying to use this move to deflect blame away from himself when the reality is that what happened here is exactly what happens at most other programs when one side of the ball is failing to get it done week after week.

What you seem to be implying is that Fleck was keeping Smith from running the defense the way he wanted to. Maybe you are super plugged in to know what goes on in the meeting rooms on a daily basis but I find it hard to believe you have that kind of access and as I said in another post I would be really surprised to see Fleck being heavily involved on defense because his entire coaching and playing background is on offense. Not saying Fleck doesn't have influence on both sides of the ball but the head coach simply doesn't have the time to completely control the gameplan on one side of the ball or the other because they have too many other weekly responsibilities to devote that kind of time to gameplanning.

What Fleck did in regards to Smith is not the same as what Brewster did with his revolving door coordinators.

Offense
2007-2008 - Dunbar - Brew made his first critical error hiring a spread guy who went away from what had been very effective on offense for years here in favor a more exciting spread attack that they were never able to recruit the receivers to run.
2009 - Fisch - Dunbar "resigned" but he would have been fired. Brew interviewed Horton but made a critical mistake again and decided on Fisch who came in and tried to run a scheme that was setup for the NFL and had no chance of working in college.
2010 - Horton - The best decision Brew made in his run on offense was finally hiring Horton a year later but by then it was too late for him to undo the damage done by the previous bad decisions on that side of the ball.

Defense
2007 - Withers - Came in with a really complex system but he wasn't fired, he chose to make a lateral move for to North Carolina after the season. Move made sense for him because he was from out there.
2008 - Roof - Hired Ted Roof who came in and did some good things before jumping ship when he got offered double what he was making at the U.
2009-2010 - Cosgrove - Was never all that popular with fans but at least provided some stability

So in all of that the only coordinator Brew "fired" was Dunbar but he made some mistakes in who he hired. Withers, Roof both left on their own. Fisch was a horrible decision and he went back to the NFL after one year. The coordinator revolving door under Brew was a big part of why he got fired when he did but it wasn't like he was just firing coaches left and right.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Another point worth noting: Kansas fired its head coach after this past weekend. The athletic director cited the moved up timetable for recruit signings (December) and "the way things are now in college football" with the decision to do it now rather than after the season ends.

I think that's a fair point worth considering in our situation too. Shows recruits that Fleck is deadly serious about fixing it, and NOW, rather than waiting.