CU Post-Mortem

[MplsGopher]

That's not how you posted...as your personal requirements.

Not a single thing about post #16 can reasonable be misconstrued in that way.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

My personal requirements are meaningless -- it's entirely up to Coyle to decide if/when he believes Fleck's agent has provided credible proof.

I'm merely saying, you don't "back the Brinks truck up" prior to that, just because some college football reporter made some clickbait article naming coaches they think would be good fits, lists Fleck.

Obviously, no AD is going to make contract decisions based on an online coaching list, but you stated that you wanted there to be credible proof of interest before addressing PJ's contract desires in Minnesota, so I was curious what you thought that would be. If you (or Coyle) consider Harlan's word to be "credible proof," then fine, you might get that. Otherwise, the only proof of interest Coyle is likely to get is a call from the AD at USC that they want to interview PJ (if the AD decides to extend that courtesy) or, more likley, notice from PJ or Harlan that he's taking the job.

If the U wants to retain PJ, they should be proactively doing whatever they can to keep him, not focusing on whether he's a candidate for this job or that job, and not waiting until he's about to be offered a job he really wants.

 

[MplsGopher]

Obviously, no AD is going to make contract decisions based on an online coaching list, but you stated that you wanted there to be credible proof of interest before addressing PJ's contract desires in Minnesota, so I was curious what you thought that would be. If you (or Coyle) consider Harlan's word to be "credible proof," then fine, you might get that. Otherwise, the only proof of interest Coyle is likely to get is a call from the AD at USC that they want to interview PJ (if the AD decides to extend that courtesy) or, more likley, notice from PJ or Harlan that he's taking the job.

If the U wants to retain PJ, they should be proactively doing whatever they can to keep him, not focusing on whether he's a candidate for this job or that job, and not waiting until he's about to be offered a job he really wants.

Then they should be renegotiating his salary upwards, after every game. Isn't that proactive?

What is proactive, then?

Internet rumors shouldn't be good enough, is my advice to Coil. He, of course, will decide for himself.


I don't know what I would decide is good enough. I just know internet rumors aren't good enough.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

Then they should be renegotiating his salary upwards, after every game. Isn't that proactive?

What is proactive, then?

Internet rumors shouldn't be good enough, is my advice to Coil. He, of course, will decide for himself.


I don't know what I would decide is good enough. I just know internet rumors aren't good enough.

What I think is proactive is meaningless, it's entirely up to Coyle to decide. Did I do that right?

 

[MGGopher]

I believe it was after the 2018 defeat to the Illini that the D Coordinator was fired.

The rest is history a.k.a. Purdue the next week and beyond. Literally the season rose from the grave in Champaign to end up in the Motor City.

I was literally thinking during the game that CU needs to fire their OC and hope for a similar turnaround. Not only could they do nothing, their whole gameplan/approach just seemed awful. Gophers are weak at LB when forced to run laterally on 1st and 2nd downs...yet I saw little/no motion, bubble, quick passing, outside zone, etc. That QB is also supposedly quite mobile, and yet they've got him constantly dropping back 3, 5, 7 steps into a pocket that was always collapsing. It was weird.

 

[MplsGopher]

What I think is proactive is meaningless, it's entirely up to Coyle to decide. Did I do that right?

Sounds like you agree internet rumors aren't good enough for most people.

 

[BilldGopher]

Another one from my memory vault. October 1, 2011. Gophers get routed by Michigan 58-donut and I make the mistake of going to the birthday party of an acquaintance immediately afterwards without changing out of my Gophers apparel. Keep in mind, this was a part of mostly completely strangers and I just got ragged on all afternoon.

I hated that day.

The Billds had a similar experience several years ago.

Went to a game where we lost royally that was followed by a Halloween party soon after. We just stayed in our gameday apparel and went as Gopher Fans.

Anywho, the folks there that actually cared about football were mostly NDSU (and Vikings fans with a couple of Hawks sprinkled in too). Needless to say listening to the braying buffaloes was not enjoyable. Also didn't help that I had to stay sober enough for the 30 mile drive home.

 

[FredCoxRocks]

Another one from my memory vault. October 1, 2011. Gophers get routed by Michigan 58-donut and I make the mistake of going to the birthday party of an acquaintance immediately afterwards without changing out of my Gophers apparel. Keep in mind, this was a part of mostly completely strangers and I just got ragged on all afternoon.

I hated that day.

. I remember that day. I was at Canterbury. We were sitting away from others and had a nearby TV tuned to the game. Some complete stranger came over and gave me crap...something about losing to NDSU, which if I recall was the week before.
2011...oy.

 

[#2Gopher]

Going back to the thread title. Yes improvements will need to be made for Colorado. They will need a booster much like we would need a booster to help pay for Fleck's salary or any other expensive coach. They will need boosters to help pay for all the appearances of the players etc.,much like we will need a booster in the future to help pay the players. So in the end, its going to be in the hands of the wealthy that will control the fate of all football teams in the nation.

 

[PMWinSTP]

You don't give Fleck more money just because some reporter throws out a lazy piece saying he's a great match for the USC job.

Fleck's agent will do his job.

If they (Fleck and agent) have credible proof of interest from USC, then they absolutely will use that as leverage and the U will need to make a decision, then.

Not before.

Not a single thing about post #16 can reasonable be misconstrued in that way.

The whole post. Fleck's Agent will do his job...they absolutely will use...

 

[short ornery norwegian]

A handful of FB programs - and only a small handful - win every year.

Most programs go through ups and downs. I remember when Wisconsin's program was way down after the Don Morton area. They got better.

during their history, at times the Gophers have been very good. at times they have been very bad.

Coaches come and go. To suggest that Fleck is the only FB coach in the world who can win at MN is a step way too far for me. If Fleck leaves for whatever reason, the program will not fold. There was Gopher football before Fleck and there will be Gopher football after Fleck.

Who knows? there could be some young coach out there, somewhere, right now, who will one day lead MN to a B1G title or even a national championship. Anything is possible.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

I kind of feel bad for the guy, but then again he can remember a national championship and several years of relevance. I have neither. There were times when I have felt worse than him and spent many Saturdays alone watching ass-whooping after ass-whooping, wondering if its even worth it anymore, while my friends and family are out doing fun weekend stuff.
Things are better now that what they've been. We can all relate.

I am confident a gopher fan submitted a similar piece to the strib in 1991.

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

Sounds like you agree internet rumors aren't good enough for most people.

Has anyone suggested that internet rumors were enough? You demanded "credible proof" of USC's interest before considering an adjustment. I asked you what that might be. You offered no response and suggested that Coyle should decide. But Coyle, like any competent AD, knows that the real inquiry isn't whether he can find "proof" that USC wants PJ. Rather, the germane questions are whether he has a coach he wants to retain (he does), whether his coach is attractive to other programs (he is), whether his coach has interest in other positions (he might) and whether there is anything that he can do to encourage his coach to stay (unknown as it relates to USC). By the time he gets the "proof" that want him to have that USC is interested, PJ is probably already on a private jet winging his way out of town.

When you are the AD with a high profile, 40 year-old coach who is desired by other programs, you have to accept that your coach has most of the leverage. Does USC want PJ? Who knows. But there are certainly going to be jobs that come open where PJ will be a serious candidate and where there will be some reason (history, location, institutional support, facilities, etc.) to at least think that PJ might be interested. Coyle can't wait and respond to each of those opportunities, he has to already be showing PJ his level of commitment. Negotiations where your opposite has more leverage are much more difficult, but as an AD it is better than every other alternative.

 

[upnorthkid]

I was literally thinking during the game that CU needs to fire their OC and hope for a similar turnaround. Not only could they do nothing, their whole gameplan/approach just seemed awful. Gophers are weak at LB when forced to run laterally on 1st and 2nd downs...yet I saw little/no motion, bubble, quick passing, outside zone, etc. That QB is also supposedly quite mobile, and yet they've got him constantly dropping back 3, 5, 7 steps into a pocket that was always collapsing. It was weird.

they did try run some outside zone, but our DL were shooting gaps and they were missing their reach blocks, so all those plays were getting stuffed in the backfield. they also tried a outside throw behind the line on their first drive (after their qb dropped the first snap) they he shortarmed and couldn't get there, which ruined any opportunity to get YAC. He's just a bad QB and it was killing them that we could load the box and then sit on the shorter throws

 

[MplsGopher]

The whole post.

You're being dishonest.

Not a single thing there was me saying that my personal criteria matter.

 

[Goldmember]

CU has a lot going for it. Great city, great campus, great stadium, a good school, surrounded by mountains in a region of the country people love, located next to one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country, with one of the largest airports.

And I think CU ends up in the Big Ten within the lifetime of most of us.

 

[MplsGopher]

You demanded "credible proof" of USC's interest before considering an adjustment.

Only in the sense of advice to Coil, in the pretend world where he asked for it.

Not at all like I (me, personally) needed to see something before I (me, personally) would allow it.

But Coyle, like any competent AD, knows that the real inquiry isn't whether he can find "proof" that USC wants PJ. Rather, the germane questions are whether he has a coach he wants to retain (he does), whether his coach is attractive to other programs (he is), whether his coach has interest in other positions (he might) and whether there is anything that he can do to encourage his coach to stay (unknown as it relates to USC). By the time he gets the "proof" that want him to have that USC is interested, PJ is probably already on a private jet winging his way out of town.

When you are the AD with a high profile, 40 year-old coach who is desired by other programs, you have to accept that your coach has most of the leverage. Does USC want PJ? Who knows. But there are certainly going to be jobs that come open where PJ will be a serious candidate and where there will be some reason (history, location, institutional support, facilities, etc.) to at least think that PJ might be interested. Coyle can't wait and respond to each of those opportunities, he has to already be showing PJ his level of commitment. Negotiations where your opposite has more leverage are much more difficult, but as an AD it is better than every other alternative.

You've stated your view and opinion on this well, here.

Fine.

I disagree with you. If followed literally, it would require Coil to negotiate with Fleck every day and raise his salary every day. Every new day, all the things you listed above apply anew.

In my opinion, there has to be something more credible than some reporter's story. And that's where Fleck's agent comes in. As a professional, whoever this person is will know when to push and when to lay off.

If Fleck genuine wants to go to USC (if offered), there won't be a single thing Coil can offer to prevent it. But if Fleck wants to stay, the agent will make that known and they will work out the best deal they can do.

 

[MplsGopher]

CU has a lot going for it. Great city, great campus, great stadium, a good school, surrounded by mountains in a region of the country people love, located next to one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country, with one of the largest airports.

And I think CU ends up in the Big Ten within the lifetime of most of us.

Maybe. But I think the point of "The Alliance" was so that those three conference wouldn't have to think about raiding each other.

We'll see if that holds or not.

 

[noamfromm]

CU has a lot going for it. Great city, great campus, great stadium, a good school, surrounded by mountains in a region of the country people love, located next to one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country, with one of the largest airports.

And I think CU ends up in the Big Ten within the lifetime of most of us.

After joining the Allbuffs board in the leadup to the game I saw multiple people lament that they joined the Pac12 over the B1G in the last round of realignment. But I am with MPLS that I think while the Alliance holds each conference will keep its membership or only add / loss teams outside of the Alliance

 

[2nd Degree Gopher]

If they (Fleck and agent) have credible proof of interest from USC, then they absolutely will use that as leverage and the U will need to make a decision, then.

Not before.

This is what you asked for initially. I have asked you what would constitute "credible proof" and you have claimed that is for Coyle to decide. So your position is that there should be a standard used by Coyle to evaluate USC's interest in Fleck, but you don't know what it is and can't articulate what would satisfy you as sufficient, other than that it better not just be some rando's internet post. Groundbreaking insight.

What Coyle is likely to get is information from Harlan (Fleck's agent) that USC wants to interview and/or hire Fleck. There will likely be some measure of truth in that vague communication, but Harlan has an incentive, even a duty, to present that in the best possible light for his client. So does that constitute "credible proof?" (I know, you have no opinion on that and "Coil" has to decide.)

If followed literally, it would require Coil to negotiate with Fleck every day and raise his salary every day. Every new day, all the things you listed above apply anew.

This is absurd. Proactive management doesn't imply constant action, nor does any thinking person, even you, think that's what it means. The problem is that your paradigm is entirely reactive--Coyle should wait for proof to act. That's the crux of our disagreement. It is not a recipe to retain your best people.

And that's where Fleck's agent comes in. As a professional, whoever this person is will know when to push and when to lay off.

This appears to be the core of your fundamental misunderstanding of the process. The agent's job is to push when he has leverage for his client, not wait until he has "credible proof" of a job offer. He's not a neutral trying to find a "fair" result, he's trying to maximize his client's position. If he is an ethical person, he shouldn't lie to accomplish that, but of course some people do.

After reading your subesquent posts, it occurs to me that we could have avoided all this back and forth if you had initially posted:

"I sure hope Coil doesn't give PJ a new contract based exclusively on somebody's click bait list of candidates for the USC job on the interwebs."

Then somebody would have responded: "Yeah, that would be dumb!" and it would have ended.

 

[GVLCGopherFan]

That was a well written article. The author laid out their concerns in an interesting way without taking any real cheap shots. It's an example of how a person - who actually cares about their team -expresses negative opinions.

 

[BilldGopher]

Completely agree GVLC. That's why I posted it.

For the remaining older GH posters you may recall "The Bitter End Club" from the Brewster Era.

We endured till the clock read 00:00 in the 4th Quarter to some pretty bitter game endings. Halcyon days with Rose Bowl turf growing in the sports complex.

Fortunately it was disbanded during the Kill Era and beyond...

 

[Stuff]

CU has a lot going for it. Great city, great campus, great stadium, a good school, surrounded by mountains in a region of the country people love, located next to one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country, with one of the largest airports.

And I think CU ends up in the Big Ten within the lifetime of most of us.

I hope so. It was a fun game and stadium to be at. Loved the view.

 

[hungan1]

We understand CU's pain having endured the highs and the lows of the Gophers' football program the last sixty years.

Their drought is only half the Gophers' having won it in 1990 with tailback Eric Bieniemy. It is hard to believe that is ancient history as some of the folks in GH I presume.

 

[Goldmember]

We understand CU's pain having endured the highs and the lows of the Gophers' football program the last sixty years.

Their drought is only half the Gophers' having won it in 1990 with tailback Eric Bieniemy. It is hard to believe that is ancient history as some of the folks in GH I presume.

CU’s national championship is now longer ago than the last Gophers National Championship was at the time CU won theirs.

 

[Dano564]

Back to the topic about CU fans being down an out.
I was looking for a podcast from CU fans to listen to postgame, and I felt bad when I started listening to it.

It sounded like their program died.

One dude said it was the most sad he has ever been about the program.

Yikes.


Something to add regarding this, things are never as horrible or as great as they seem right after a single game. A single game is too small of a data point to get bent out of shape about.

The sooner I learn this, the better off I'll be. And maybe the same for others.

 

[highwayman]

This comment from the writing you shared is something most MN fans can relate to, especially those of us that attended a lot of games in the Metrodome:

“It didn’t help that there were a smattering of Minnesota fans in our area. They were quiet and polite until the score hit 20-0, when a combination of confidence, beer and sunshine morphed some of them into obnoxious assholes.”

Yes, visitors cheering and clapping sucks. So does having the opposing players run over to the visitor sideline and waving to their fans, who cheer and wave back. Total assholery.

 

[highwayman]

Back to the topic about CU fans being down an out.
I was looking for a podcast from CU fans to listen to postgame, and I felt bad when I started listening to it.

It sounded like their program died.

One dude said it was the most sad he has ever been about the program.

Yikes.


Something to add regarding this, things are never as horrible or as great as they seem right after a single game. A single game is too small of a data point to get bent out of shape about.

The sooner I learn this, the better off I'll be. And maybe the same for others.

Part of the Colorado grief is part of the national belief that the Minnesota program is not and cannot be relevant. Also, that a middling B1G program is inferior to a poor Pac12 program. Wrong on both accounts. Hey, I've always thought we were better than we were. It leads to some sobering results, but hey a boy can wish.

 

[MplsGopher]

So your position is that there should be a standard used by Coyle to evaluate USC's interest in Fleck, but you don't know what it is and can't articulate what would satisfy you as sufficient, other than that it better not just be some rando's internet post.

The gist of the post is that there needs to be more than just internet hearsay in order to cave to giving Fleck more money.

I won't waste my time speculating what Coil considers that burden of proof to be.

What Coyle is likely to get is information from Harlan (Fleck's agent) that USC wants to interview and/or hire Fleck. There will likely be some measure of truth in that vague communication, but Harlan has an incentive, even a duty, to present that in the best possible light for his client. So does that constitute "credible proof?"

See above. That wasn't the gist of what my original post was.

If I was AD, then yes that would be something actually tangible.

Proactive management doesn't imply constant action, nor does any thinking person, even you, think that's what it means. The problem is that your paradigm is entirely reactive--Coyle should wait for proof to act. That's the crux of our disagreement.

You fault me for refusing to define exact criteria. Then you offer nothing yourself, beyond a vauge, wishy-washy "proactive management". What is that?

The agent's job is to push when he has leverage for his client, not wait until he has "credible proof" of a job offer. He's not a neutral trying to find a "fair" result, he's trying to maximize his client's position. If he is an ethical person, he shouldn't lie to accomplish that, but of course some people do.

But then, Coil doesn't just have to accept any single thing the person says as gospel.

If the person calls up Coil and says "our boy Fleck was listed by Joe Nobody at loserville .com, better pay up!" then hopefully he just laughs and hangs up the phone.

After reading your subesquent posts, it occurs to me that we could have avoided all this back and forth if you had initially posted:

"I sure hope Coil doesn't give PJ a new contract based exclusively on somebody's click bait list of candidates for the USC job on the interwebs."

Perhaps

 

[noamfromm]

the times they are a-changin'