Coaching aside....

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BarnBurner said:
I am not arguing Kill is a great coach. My point was that taking a shot at Kill was bush league, at best.

20 wins!!!!!! Great!

How have tubby's teams finished, in conf, each of the past 5 years?

Any ncaa wins?
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What has Kill done in his first two years?
 

gopherbadgerman said:
Kemba Walker was a way better player than Hollins. But to your point I think MN can win with Hollins at the point, I agree the other players are much more the problem than him.
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Agreed. I think not having a true PG is a lazy cop out. Dre is the furthest thing from the teams problem. Only criticism there is too many fouls.

There have been many examples though of teams winning without a true PG.
 


BarnBurner said:
Interesting perspective.

1. Who recruits backup players?
2. Who recruits shooters?
3. Who teaches the offense?
4. Whose offensive philosophy is being run?

If Dre is adequate at point, why is this team underperforming so badly?
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I love that you assume I think Tubby is blameless in all if this.

If the season ended today, I'd be in favor of making a move. Would just like to see the remainder play out first though.
 

BarnBurner said:
I am not arguing Kill is a great coach.

Can we talk about BB here on the TUBBYS BARN forum?

Wanna answer the questions?
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You're defending Kill by calling me a blind squirrel. Why would I answer the questions when you know the answer to them?
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
You're defending Kill by calling me a blind squirrel. Why would I answer the questions when you know the answer to them?
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Your lack of acknowledgment
as to what is and has been happening in the BB program leads me to believe you cant see well......
 

scher215 said:
I love that you assume I think Tubby is blameless in all if this.

If the season ended today, I'd be in favor of making a move. Would just like to see the remainder play out first though.
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The flavor of your posts suggest otherwise. Care to provide your thoughts on the questions?
 

BarnBurner said:
Your lack of acknowledgment
as to what is and has been happening in the BB program leads me to believe you cant see well......
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What lack acknowledgment? Everyone can see that they have struggled.
 

We really need a strong finish this year.

While I hope next year's guys develop and grow, I don't see anything on that roster that immediately screams a finish in the top half of the B1G.
 



scher215 said:
Agreed. I think not having a true PG is a lazy cop out. Dre is the furthest thing from the teams problem. Only criticism there is too many fouls.

There have been many examples though of teams winning without a true PG.
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I think Dre is hampered by a number of things:

A lousy offensive scheme
Two guys who play along side of him who cannot hit a jump shot in Rodney and Joe
Lack of a big scoring post

My hope is that a few of these things get worked out by having more players that can shoot the ball and perhaps a different offensive coach
 

I like the positivity, but I'm not seeing it. We'll have zero inside scoring next year. I don't doubt that our freshmen can end up being good scorers, but I think you're underestimating how difficult of a time freshmen have scoring efficiently.

bga1 said:
I like the possibilities for next year.

I think Buggs, Ellenson, Ellis all bring in elements we are lacking this year. They all have a scoring mentality and probably some better overall basketball skills. The huge loss is Mbakwe. If we can somehow patch that void, we could actually have a very nice year. A lot depends on who is coaching them and what is done but there is potential here. Not sure on how Foster fits in but it sounds like he is a rebounder which we will need.

Elliason/ Walker
Buggs/Foster
Hollins/Ellenson
Ellis/Coleman
Hollins/Ellis(?) hoping he can back up Andre

I had to do it. :)
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Tubby isn't a great recruiter but not that bad, what is becomming more and more apparent is that he is inept at building a team from the personel he has recruited. Ahanmisi and Welch or role players, the fact that he recruited both to play as backup PG and SG tells me alot, both might be serviceable as a backup SG, neither should see the time of day at PG even in the MIAC, hopefully Ellis will be a little more athletic and better scorer than Ahanmisi and Welch, my guess is he won't be any better at the PG position, again they will have no one to back up Dre if he goes out for any reason next year, games like Iowa will inevitably happen again.
 

underground629 said:
I like the positivity, but I'm not seeing it. We'll have zero inside scoring next year. I don't doubt that our freshmen can end up being good scorers, but I think you're underestimating how difficult of a time freshmen have scoring efficiently.
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As I said, it depends on the coaching. We know this, we will have better shooters next year in Ellis and Buggs. Coleman and Williams (two of the worst outside shooters in the conference) in the lineup together are an invitation to the zone. Elliason is showing promise but needs to develop some ability to post up and score. Walker needs to lose 30-40 pounds. And we need to lose a few coaches.
 



I am not that excited for next year. Purdue will be back. Iowa is young and improving. I see us falling further behind.
 

march madness said:
I am not that excited for next year. Purdue will be back. Iowa is young and improving. I see us falling further behind.
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Let's say Shaka Smart is coach and those are the players- excited? (BTW- sub another name in for Smart if you like - I don't think we have a chance to get him). I guess part of my poorly expressed premise was- if we had good coaching wouldn't the roster look a bit more interesting. So...coaching aside, how do you like the roster? Could this talent succeed? I for one think Flip could make something out of that group and perhaps even fill in with a spring recruit or two that would make a difference.
 

jovs said:
Tubby isn't a great recruiter but not that bad, what is becomming more and more apparent is that he is inept at building a team from the personel he has recruited. Ahanmisi and Welch or role players, the fact that he recruited both to play as backup PG and SG tells me alot, both might be serviceable as a backup SG, neither should see the time of day at PG even in the MIAC, hopefully Ellis will be a little more athletic and better scorer than Ahanmisi and Welch, my guess is he won't be any better at the PG position, again they will have no one to back up Dre if he goes out for any reason next year, games like Iowa will inevitably happen again.
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My guess is he will. Can't remember the site, but Ellis was rated #3 in the 2013 class in Illinios.
 




scher215 said:
Hopefully both?
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Good mid-range jumper, takes the ball to the hole, has 3 point range. He's the type of scorer we don't get all that often. I would call him a scorer, rather than a shooter.
 

From the Barn said:
People, Ellis is a shooting guard.
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That's correct. A shooting guard who will provide minutes at the point when Dre gets himself into foul trouble and the game is on the line. Last time you said he was at least 6 inches too tall. He's 6-3, a good ballhandler and passer.
 

howieramone said:
My guess is he will. Can't remember the site, but Ellis was rated #3 in the 2013 class in Illinios.
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Sid Hartman from the Star Tribune said in a recent article that Ellis was selected to play in the McDonald's All-American game. I looked up the rosters and didn't see him listed.
 

B1GSportsGuy said:
Sid Hartman from the Star Tribune said in a recent article that Ellis was selected to play in the McDonald's All-American game. I looked up the rosters and didn't see him listed.
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Sid had it wrong, both Ellis and Foster were nominated for the game but not selected as there are about 150 players who are nominated every year.
 


B1GSportsGuy said:
Sid Hartman from the Star Tribune said in a recent article that Ellis was selected to play in the McDonald's All-American game. I looked up the rosters and didn't see him listed.
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'Sid' will suffice.:cool02:
 

If one were allowed to lump Ellenson, Buggs, Ellis and Foster in one class, it would be considered a very strong class.
 

bga1 said:
As I said, it depends on the coaching. We know this, we will have better shooters next year in Ellis and Buggs. Coleman and Williams (two of the worst outside shooters in the conference) in the lineup together are an invitation to the zone. Elliason is showing promise but needs to develop some ability to post up and score. Walker needs to lose 30-40 pounds. And we need to lose a few coaches.
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No offense, but how the hell does anyone know if Buggs and Ellis are going to be good shooters next year? Or do you just mean better than Williams and Coleman? Maybe I am reading wrong?
 

I'm wondering the same thing. I don't doubt that they can be good shooters, but typically 3* freshmen and redshirt freshmen have a hard time scoring efficiently.

gopherbadgerman said:
No offense, but how the hell does anyone know if Buggs and Ellis are going to be good shooters next year? Or do you just mean better than Williams and Coleman? Maybe I am reading wrong?
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EG#9 said:
Agree on Ellenson, but you have to have at least some concern about what type of player Buggs is. This isn't CFB and red shirting isn't the norm. We just lost to a team that has 3 freshman playing roles on their team and Buggs couldn't establish himself in a front court that includes Eliason, Ingram, and Walker. The optimistic side of me says that Buggs has legit talent, he was just not strong enough to bang in the Big Ten.
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I didn't realize Buggs is a 5 / 4. The players he needs to beat out this year are Coleman, Williams, Mbakwe, Austin Hollins..I think Buggs will play a lot of positions before its over.. 2, 3, and the 4. He is a scorer type right now, slasher, etc but not big (tall but thin) so I think the depth at the start of the year indicated he wouldn't play, especially after our strong start. Oto is a player that will be impacted if Buggs plays good minutes. Say what we want about Oto, but he seems to be a good rebounder for the minutes he plays, and I think thats a key to him getting back up minutes. Buggs obviously is not a Micky D all american, but I think he will be fine. He has major programs after him for his potential. I don't think his red shirt means a lot in terms of impact down the road. I don't expect him to be our leading scorer next year, but I expect an improvement in our bench. This assumes we sign a solid 4 before all is said and done (Schilling or juco).
 

gopherbadgerman said:
No offense, but how the hell does anyone know if Buggs and Ellis are going to be good shooters next year? Or do you just mean better than Williams and Coleman? Maybe I am reading wrong?
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Watch Buggs shoot the ball in pre game - great form and rotation, and makes a ton of shots form all over the floor. Also watched a game of Ellis recently and i have zero concerns about his shooting, again good form and nice looking shot.

Then watch coleman and williams shoot, both have ugly shots. Joe shoots a set shot from the 3 point line. How anyone could play (both of them) that much basketball growing up and have nobody teach them the proper form of shooting the ball is completely diseased.
 

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