Chip: Looking at Gophers football stats: They rank 7th nationally in time of possession and 108th in scoring. That seems darn near impossible to do.

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Gophergrandpa said:
Of the top 5 in B1G TOP, 4 are in the top 5 in scoring in the B1G … one is not.
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Well done! Some people around here shoot off their mouths before looking at the evidence. Three of the four conference leaders in TOP are head and shoulders above the rest of the conference. The difference between them and us is that they have larger sets of more complete players and therefore have more dependable options when it comes to finishing their drives.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
A quick look at the stats of the last two games illustrates your point:

vs. Iowa

IA TOP: 24:35
MN TOP: 35.25

Tackes by IA: 83
Tackles by MN: 48

vs. MSU

MSU TOP: 23:15
MN TOP: 36:15

Tackes by MSU: 73
Tackles by MN: 50

We could use Tackles as a proxy for how much the defense is having to work.

In both of these games, we heard TV announcers and/or words in the written recap describing how Minnesota seemed to be wearing the opponent down late in the game. There was a blogging game thread by a sports writer in one of the Michigan newspapers and he described how Minnesota was driving the ball in the MSU game with little or no resistance in the 4th quarter.
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This also plays into defensive depth. If you’re not a helmet school with tons of defensive depth, TOP can alleviate that issue.
 

Panthadad2 said:
This also plays into defensive depth. If you’re not a helmet school with tons of defensive depth, TOP can alleviate that issue.
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Yep.

Minnesota is and always will be a developmental program. When Fleck speaks of sometimes being forced to give certain guys playing time "before they're ready really", that's what he means.

You coach them up. You live with their growing pains. If you win 9 games including a bowl win, you're doing really well. If you finish in the Top 10, you're pretty much a miracle worker.
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
Scroll back to the table above. Four of the top five B10 teams are also four of the top five in TOP. My guess is that the team with the greater TOP wins 80+% of the games. But I might be wrong. I've been called "insane" on this site before. :)
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Four of the top five B10 teams have something in common. They have great athletes on both sides of the ball. They play to score and keep the other team from scoring and care nothing about how TOP works out.

The outlier is Minnesota, way up in TOP and near the bottom scoring. TOP as an objective has no value.

The relationship to winning is not to do with TOP. It has everything to do with talent and aggressive style of play.
 

RememberMurray said:
Yep.

Minnesota is and always will be a developmental program. When Fleck speaks of sometimes being forced to give certain guys playing time "before they're ready really", that's what he means.

You coach them up. You live with their growing pains. If you win 9 games including a bowl win, you're doing really well. If you finish in the Top 10, you're pretty much a miracle worker.
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And these comments pertain to TOP exactly how?
 


Dakota2 said:
Four of the top five B10 teams have something in common. They have great athletes on both sides of the ball. They play to score and keep the other team from scoring and care nothing about how TOP works out.

The outlier is Minnesota, way up in TOP and near the bottom scoring. TOP as an objective has no value.

The relationship to winning is not to do with TOP. It has everything to do with talent and aggressive style of play.
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I'd expect aggressive play would limit TOP s you would either score or lose the ball quickly.
 

I can buy into TOP having some value, but the only real offensive stat that indicates success (and ignores offensive style/scheme) is points per possession. Score touchdowns every drive and you succeed. Punt a lot, turn the ball over, settle for FGs too often and you fail.
 

BleedGopher said:
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Proponents of the absurd Tressel/Henry L. Williams/Old Murray offensive philosophy miss the most important point. If you control the ball for long periods of time and do not score, the result is you have less time left to score. Seven plays in four minutes is of no value if you punt and allow the other team to score.

TOP has only coincidental relationship with success, either positive or negative.

But it is interesting to note the various arguments that Old Murr, Chief Spokesman for the Tressel/Henry L. Williams/Murray School of Offensive Football make.

According to Old Murr, TOP strategy can be applied to other sports. How, you ask?

In baseball, a pitcher who throws 40 pitches in an inning, giving up six hits and five runs, is said to be keeping the ball away from the other pitcher, therefore, winning TOP.

In basketball, a team that gets a shot clock violation on every possession is said to be controlling the clock and limiting the other team's chances to score by shortening the game.

In track, the guy who finishes last in the 100 meter is said to be controlling clock because someone has to hold a stop watch until he finishes the race.

These examples are all cited by the Tressel/Henry L. Williams/Old Murr school as beneficial features of controlling the clock, taking the air out of the ball, and forcing Michigan to score 52 points while losing TOP.
 

RememberMurray said:
There's a difference between a reporter and a columnist.

A reporter gathers and reports facts, and the good reporters deliberately leave their own opinions out of the story.

A columnist's job, on the other hand, is to put forth his or her opinion, selecting pertinent facts to bolster his or her case.
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What decade or century does your trite little definition of what reporters and columnists at the Star Tribune do? There has not been a story in decades from that paper written by "a good reporter" who "deliberately leave their own opinions out of the story".

How naive/dumb can you be?
 



FanSinceTheFifties said:
I'd expect aggressive play would limit TOP s you would either score or lose the ball quickly.
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As opposed to either scoring slowly or giving the ball back to the opponent.

TOP is inert. It is not dynamic. It just happens. There is no reason to believe actually playing for TOP dominance leads to scoring more points. It doesn't. It could possibly by some coincidence, of course. But just as likely you will find Minnesota 7th in TOP, 108th in scoring.
 

Dakota2 said:
What decade or century does your trite little definition of what reporters and columnists at the Star Tribune do? There has not been a story in decades from that paper written by "a good reporter" who "deliberately leave their own opinions out of the story".

How naive/dumb can you be?
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Sorry, but there are still columnists, still reporters, and those are still two different jobs. Editorial content is still different from straight news. Even at The Wall Street Journal.

 

All time of possession is not created equal. If a team is winning on time of possession because they keep having long, sustained drives while holding the other teams to a bunch of three and outs, that probably means they are dominating. If a team is winning on time of possession because they are running the same number of plays as their opponent, but running the play clock down every snap, that doesnt do much for them.

Another way of looking at it is Team A gets the ball first, throws 3 incomplete passes that stop the clock, and punt on 4th and 10 with only 15 seconds run off the clock. Team B fair catches the punt, runs three times for no gain, punts on 4th and 10, but 2 minutes run off the clock because the running plays keep the clock running and they milked the whole play clock. I wouldn't say that Team B is controlling anything, despite the fact that they have 8 times the time of possession as their opponent.
 

My takeaway on TOP and lack of scoring is that these stats continue to emphasize how non-explosive the Gophers have been (this season and for a long time). It pairs well with the thread on how we are completely unable to recover from even small deficits (like even being 7 points down at any point in a game is a death knell).

This has been a long-term liability for the Gophers and this season is no different. Completely non-explosive. Can't be a sustainable winner like that.
 



bleedsmaroonandgold said:
All time of possession is not created equal. If a team is winning on time of possession because they keep having long, sustained drives while holding the other teams to a bunch of three and outs, that probably means they are dominating. If a team is winning on time of possession because they are running the same number of plays as their opponent, but running the play clock down every snap, that doesnt do much for them.

Another way of looking at it is Team A gets the ball first, throws 3 incomplete passes that stop the clock, and punt on 4th and 10 with only 15 seconds run off the clock. Team B fair catches the punt, runs three times for no gain, punts on 4th and 10, but 2 minutes run off the clock because the running plays keep the clock running and they milked the whole play clock. I wouldn't say that Team B is controlling anything, despite the fact that they have 8 times the time of possession as their opponent.
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Under P.J. Fleck, playing conservative, control-the-clock FleckBall, Minnesota has won 49 games and lost 30. 29-28 in the B1G.

They've played in 4 bowls, and won them all.

They finished the 2019 season ranked #10 in the nation.

They've won 11, 9 and 9 games in a season.

They currently have both Floyd of Rosedale and Paul Bunyan's Axe in their trophy case.


When I compare all of that to previous Minnesota coaches, I'm sold on FleckBall.
 


RememberMurray said:
Under P.J. Fleck, playing conservative, control-the-clock FleckBall, Minnesota has won 49 games and lost 30. 29-28 in the B1G.

They've played in 4 bowls, and won them all.

They finished the 2019 season ranked #10 in the nation.

They've won 11, 9 and 9 games in a season.

They currently have both Floyd of Rosedale and Paul Bunyan's Axe in their trophy case.


When I compare all of that to previous Minnesota coaches, I'm sold on FleckBall.
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Well said if you believe there is no reason to be better.
 


Dakota2 said:
Well said if you believe there is no reason to be better.
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Be the very, very best you can be. No boundaries. The sky is the limit. When you wish upon a star, your dreams come true.
 

RememberMurray said:
Under P.J. Fleck, playing conservative, control-the-clock FleckBall, Minnesota has won 49 games and lost 30. 29-28 in the B1G.

They've played in 4 bowls, and won them all.

They finished the 2019 season ranked #10 in the nation.

They've won 11, 9 and 9 games in a season.

They currently have both Floyd of Rosedale and Paul Bunyan's Axe in their trophy case.


When I compare all of that to previous Minnesota coaches, I'm sold on FleckBall.
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So, 11-2 in 2019 somehow supports your silly thinking? Morgan threw for almost 3,300 yards with 30 TDs. With Bateman, Johnson, and CAB on the field was TOP, control the clock, and take the air out of the ball really Fleck's objective?
 


RememberMurray said:
Be the very, very best you can be. No boundaries. The sky is the limit. When you wish upon a star, your dreams come true.
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Here's the dream. I will look for a star out over the Gulf of Mexico tonight. That PJ Fleck would stand up and announce that time of possession is a meaningless measurement of winning football.
 

Dakota2 said:
Here's the dream. I will look for a star out over the Gulf of Mexico tonight. That PJ Fleck would stand up and announce that time of possession is a meaningless measurement of winning football.
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Why on earth would you wish for that?
 

Dakota2 said:
None required with useful idiots.
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You started with the idea that "reporter" and "columnist" were terms invented by "them" to fool us.

Now you've stated that the entire conspiracy is unnecessary.

Fascinating!
 

Dakota2 said:
As opposed to either scoring slowly or giving the ball back to the opponent.

TOP is inert. It is not dynamic. It just happens. There is no reason to believe actually playing for TOP dominance leads to scoring more points. It doesn't. It could possibly by some coincidence, of course. But just as likely you will find Minnesota 7th in TOP, 108th in scoring.
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I agree that focusing on TOP doesn't improve scoring. I think the intent is to limit the opponent's opportunity to score thus enhancing the difference between your score and your opponent's score -- thus winning. Deliberate offenses are not fan favorites, they annoy fans, especially younger fans. But to me, there's nothing more frustrating than watching your opponent eat up the clock with glacial 80 yard drives. So when my team does that, I love it.
Another point (and BTW, I enjoy this civil discussion about pace, thank you for it) I think UM's play style considers two factors of this program. We play outdoors in the worst weather city in the conference, so rushing is treasured. (I wonder how the pass/rush ratio in the 'Dome compared to outdoors now). And given that climate and the other recruiting negatives of the Twin Cities, it might be that this type of offense is what can be most effective with the players we can attract. Having said all that, I'd like to see more passing this Saturday.. It started to look better last Saturday, so maybe the players and coaches will have more confidence in it. Regards.
 

Dakota2 said:
So, 11-2 in 2019 somehow supports your silly thinking? Morgan threw for almost 3,300 yards with 30 TDs. With Bateman, Johnson, and CAB on the field was TOP, control the clock, and take the air out of the ball really Fleck's objective?
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Yes!

Utilize the talent you have and put them in position to succeed.

Wasn't the 2019 team pretty highly-ranked in time of possession?
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
A quick look at the stats of the last two games illustrates your point:

vs. Iowa

IA TOP: 24:35
MN TOP: 35.25

Tackes by IA: 83
Tackles by MN: 48

vs. MSU

MSU TOP: 23:15
MN TOP: 36:15

Tackes by MSU: 73
Tackles by MN: 50

We could use Tackles as a proxy for how much the defense is having to work.

In both of these games, we heard TV announcers and/or words in the written recap describing how Minnesota seemed to be wearing the opponent down late in the game. There was a blogging game thread by a sports writer in one of the Michigan newspapers and he described how Minnesota was driving the ball in the MSU game with little or no resistance in the 4th quarter.
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This is an excellent post, and very informative.

Our opponent's defenses were definitely working harder and taking more physical punishment than Minnesota's defense in these two games, as shown by these numbers.

And the benefits cut both ways... the opponents defense gets beat up and worn down, while the Gophers defense stays fresher at the end of games.

in the Michigan State game, the Spartan defenders were gradually worn down and were gassed at the end, as the newspaper blogger pointed out.

The reverse was also true in the Iowa game: at the end, with a close game on the line, the Minnesota defense was fresh enough to stop Iowa. Iowa had a sack an an INT on their last possession, with the Gophers protecting a 2-point lead.
 


RememberMurray said:
Yes!

Utilize the talent you have and put them in position to succeed.

Wasn't the 2019 team pretty highly-ranked in time of possession?
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No idea where we ranked in TOP that year. We went 11-2 and were ranked 10th in the country with a very balanced offense.

Wherever we ended up in the meaningless TOP stat is immaterial. It's just an after-game curiosity; not a strategy.
 

RememberMurray said:
You started with the idea that "reporter" and "columnist" were terms invented by "them" to fool us.

Now you've stated that the entire conspiracy is unnecessary.

Fascinating!
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You said it's a "conspiracy", not me. In fact, it is not. Just the plain fact.
 


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