Charles Hallman of Spokesman Recorder: Kill: not-a-big-name guy with a big job to do

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Worst article I've read in a while. It basically accuses Gopher coaches of selectively ignoring talent from the Minneapolis city league, while at the same time not addressing the academic performance of their African American players. Not only did he not provide any statistics to back up any of his arguments (especially about poor academics), he also fails to substantiate his claim that there actually is talent in this league. If there were talent, do you really think in this day and age - and given the state of the program - Kill and other Gopher coaches have the luxury of ignoring it? And if so, why aren't other college coaches swooping in on a regular basis to grab these players?

Additionally, he states the Gophers have a tradition of ignoring black players. Um...what? How do you think the Gophers won all those titles in 40s-60s? I'd be willing to wager my entire lifetime of wages that the percentage of African Americans on each Gopher roster during my lifetime is higher than the percentage of African-Americans in the U.S in each of those years.

Really this guy's article should be about the problem that all the talented players that grow up in the Minneapolis Area end up playing for schools that aren't in the Minneapolis City league.

His argument is unfounded, old-fashioned, and most importantly makes absolutely zero logical sense.
 

josh087 said:
Worst article I've read in a while. It basically accuses Gopher coaches of selectively ignoring talent from the Minneapolis city league, while at the same time not addressing the academic performance of their African American players. Not only did he not provide any statistics to back up any of his arguments (especially about poor academics), he also fails to substantiate his claim that there actually is talent in this league. If there were talent, do you really think in this day and age - and given the state of the program - Kill and other Gopher coaches have the luxury of ignoring it? And if so, why aren't other college coaches swooping in on a regular basis to grab these players?

Additionally, he states the Gophers have a tradition of ignoring black players. Um...what? How do you think the Gophers won all those titles in 40s-60s? I'd be willing to wager my entire lifetime of wages that the percentage of African Americans on each Gopher roster during my lifetime is higher than the percentage of African-Americans in the U.S in each of those years.

Really this guy's article should be about the problem that all the talented players that grow up in the Minneapolis Area end up playing for schools that aren't in the Minneapolis City league.

His argument is unfounded, old-fashioned, and most importantly makes absolutely zero logical sense.
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+1000

Completely agree. This article had nothing to do with the job that Kill has ahead of him and had very little to do with football. Don't bother reading.
 

You guys are reading something into this article that isn't there. The points that Hallman brings up are common perceptions about the Gopher football program that have been around for 25 years or more. Hallman is NOT saying the Gophers haven't historically recruited black players. He is saying that they haven't recruited many black players from the Minneapolis and St. Paul City Conferences. And this has been one of the raps on Gopher football coaches over the years. The common belief has been that the only way for the Gophers to win is to recruit big, beefy, lineman from Minnesota and skill players from somewhere else.

Glenn Mason had a notoriously poor relationship with high school football coaches in Minnesota. And if that was true generally than it certainly had to be true for the inner city coaches as well. Hallman goes on to say that Coach Kill in his short time on the job has already started to repair the U's damaged reputation in the Minneapolis and St. Paul City Conferences.

Regarding academics it is undeniable that the U has historically had the worst graduation rates in the Big 10 schools. It is an area where the U has failed miserably. Hallman states that the graduation rates for black players at the U are even worse than for white players. And he didn't say that this only applies to players from Minneapolis and St. Paul. Although he doesn't cite any statistics I doubt there is anyone in GopherHole who would disagree with his claim. Again, Hallman states that Coach Kill is already starting to make progress in this area with his emphasis on academics for his players.

All and all, I thought Hallman's article does a good job of highlighting some of the historical issues regarding the U's recruitment and retention of players from the Minneapolis and St. Paul City Conferences, and he is very complimentary of the efforts Coach Kill has made to help deal with them. Apparently, Minneapolis Washburn football coach Giovanni Jenkins is quite impressed with the changes that are happening with Gopher football.
 

Hallman stated in the article the following:
"Many Black Northsiders don’t support Gopher football because of its historical ignorance."

I am not really sure what he means by this statement and wish that he would have explain this postion more in the column.

Being a Minneapolis resident, I feel that talent is there but not developed.

This is probably due to myriad of issues. One of the issues, I believe, has to do with relying on the Park Board to provide football programs to children before they begin High School. I don't believe that we have continuity with coaching and a proper focus on those programs by the Park Board.
 


Go4Broke said:
He is saying that they haven't recruited many black players from the Minneapolis and St. Paul City Conferences.
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Neither does anyone else. So why does he single out the U and pick on them? Because they're the closest? So what? He would have a point if any other schools were coming in and recruiting city players. But they aren't. For whatever reason (another topic altogether), there just aren't, and haven't been, many Division I football players coming out of the city conferences. If anything, the U has more players than most any other college just by having one city conference player. So, again, why does he single out the U? Agenda much?

Go4Broke said:
And this has been one of the raps on Gopher Coaches over the years.
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Why? If so, it should be a rap on every single coach at every level of college football, because none of them recruit the city conferences.

Go4Broke said:
The common belief has been that the only way for the Gophers to win is to recruit big, beefy, lineman from Minnesota and skill players from somewhere else.
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Common belief? By whom? This will be the first year in many, many seasons that we will have an all-Minnesota starting OL, and many of our starting skill position players the last few seasons, on offense and defense, have come from Minnesota. Much like the perception that Minnesota is the only school neglectful of city conferences, it is also a false perception that Minnesota follows the "line from Minnesota, skill from everywhere else" mentality. It's a myth.

Go4Broke said:
Regarding academics it is undeniable that the U has historically had the worst graduation rates in the Big 10 schools.
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It is quite deniable, actually. But don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant:

Purdue - worst graduation rates in Big Ten athletics for players entering 2000-2003

Minnesota's graduation rates growing faster than any other Big Ten school as of 2010

Michigan St. lowest among Big Ten schools in football graduation rate (2007)

Minnesota ahead of Iowa, Nebraska and Purdue in 4-year grad rates

Those damn statistics have to go and ruin everything!

Go4Broke said:
Although he doesn't cite any statistics I doubt there is anyone in GopherHole who would disagree with his claim.
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What claim? That the U needs to improve its graduation rates? Well, duh. Last time I checked, there are no schools graduating 100% of their general population or their athlete population, so every school everywhere should be focused on improving their graduation rates. The U has historically been pretty bad, but certainly not the worst, and they have been making great strides within and outside the athletic department that both predate Jerry Kill's arrival.

Not only that, but black athletes graduate at a worse rate than any other segment of the population. So, the gist of the article is that the U is supposed to recruit more city conference players, which would not only make the team worse, but would almost certainly make the graduation rates even worse than they already are? Awesome! What a terrific article!
 

City Football is bad. There may be a player here and there, but if they have a chance gradewise and footballwise they leave and go to another school. I think the points about the youth levels are valid. There needs to be a focus on the youth levels and getting kids involved.

The MSHSL has changed enrollment rules to help these schools become more competetive. To this point, it isn't working. Check out a small sample from last years playoffs. 2AAA 2010 Playoffs.

This years allignments are: (These schools have a combined 2 state tournament appearances in the last five years)

5A= Southwest and Washburn
4A= Harding and Central
3A= Johnson, Como Park, Roosevelt, Patrick Henry, Columbia Hts. Richfield, Washburn, and Highland Park.
2A= Edison, St. Agnes, Humboldt, and Brooklyn Center.
1A= Mpls. North. (Closing Soon)
 

what a shock that this was the angle that a Spokesman/Recorder writer decided to take
 




MaxyJR1 said:
City Football is bad. There may be a player here and there, but if they have a chance gradewise and footballwise they leave and go to another school. I think the points about the youth levels are valid. There needs to be a focus on the youth levels and getting kids involved.

The MSHSL has changed enrollment rules to help these schools become more competetive. To this point, it isn't working. Check out a small sample from last years playoffs. 2AAA 2010 Playoffs.

This years allignments are: (These schools have a combined 2 state tournament appearances in the last five years)

5A= Southwest and Washburn
4A= Harding and Central
3A= Johnson, Como Park, Roosevelt, Patrick Henry, Columbia Hts. Richfield, Washburn, and Highland Park.
2A= Edison, St. Agnes, Humboldt, and Brooklyn Center.
1A= Mpls. North. (Closing Soon)
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The article while not perfect should not be ignored. Perception is reality. Dominique Byrd, and Larry Fitzgerald jr., amongst others anyone? They may have not been in the league, but they are part of the greater African American community.

I think the U could assist in turning the League(s) around. There are top tier athletes that are very, very raw. In addition, youth may need assistance with academics. I have some Ideas that I think I'd like to bounce of Kill's staff someday.


BTW The comment about the MNC's from the 40s to the 60's is comical. The 60' team yes! the earlier teams?
 

STPGopher said:
Dominique Byrd, and Larry Fitzgerald jr., amongst others anyone? They may have not been in the league, but they are part of the greater African American community.
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And both were recruited by major universities, just like many, many African Americans in the Twin Cities metro area. I don't know the whole fitzgerald story but it seems like his dad was a reason why he didn't end up at the U, not some ridiculous made up Gopher coaches racist BS.

The article should be ignored because the writer makes damning claims without proof, and not only are the claims unfounded, you can use statistics and logic to prove them absolutely false.

There is an issue of a lack of football talent coming from the Minneapolis city league, but it has absolutely zero to do with any Gopher football coach, past or present.
 

I love it when people make racist claims based on opinion and not fact. Thanks dpo for setting them straight.
 

josh087 said:
And both were recruited by major universities, just like many, many African Americans in the Twin Cities metro area. I don't know the whole fitzgerald story but it seems like his dad was a reason why he didn't end up at the U, not some ridiculous made up Gopher coaches racist BS.

The article should be ignored because the writer makes damning claims without proof, and not only are the claims unfounded, you can use statistics and logic to prove them absolutely false.

There is an issue of a lack of football talent coming from the Minneapolis city league, but it has absolutely zero to do with any Gopher football coach, past or present.
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WAKE UP PEOPLE! Forget the author for a minute. There is a negative perception that the U can change to a victory. What Kill did was a HUGE step one. No matter what there will always be someone to remind others that Kill CARED enough to visit during a difficult time and offered chances to attend his camp. That act alone will get many people to think that hey maybe coach Kill/ the University does care. One of the main points was the U shows the "community" no love. Kill's actions are a big step toward dispelling that notion. My guess is he may have motivated a few youth to dream of being a Gopher.

FORGET Your sensitivity. Focus on the program and better yet solutions to helping the innercity conferences. The U could really be a beacon of hope here. Much like the U the inner city conferences (St.Paul and Minneapolis) once were great and could at minimum be good again. No there may not be super teams that emerge from the two conferences, but with help, individual talent could be developed on both sides of the river. It wouldn't take much to show that while playing at the U may seam like a huge mountain, with some talent and tons of desire, it's not impossible.

Regarding Fitzgerald's father, I was told that he felt that Clem got thrown under the bus. Due to negative perceptions that already existed at that time, it basically stuck with little challenge.
 



CrocShots said:
THASS RAYCESS!
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No your comment can easily be perceived as being bigoted. No shock there. Before you get your panties in a bundle, just think before jumping all over low hanging fruit.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Neither does anyone else. So why does he single out the U and pick on them? Because they're the closest? So what? He would have a point if any other schools were coming in and recruiting city players. But they aren't. For whatever reason (another topic altogether), there just aren't, and haven't been, many Division I football players coming out of the city conferences. If anything, the U has more players than most any other college just by having one city conference player. So, again, why does he single out the U? Agenda much?



Why? If so, it should be a rap on every single coach at every level of college football, because none of them recruit the city conferences.



Common belief? By whom? This will be the first year in many, many seasons that we will have an all-Minnesota starting OL, and many of our starting skill position players the last few seasons, on offense and defense, have come from Minnesota. Much like the perception that Minnesota is the only school neglectful of city conferences, it is also a false perception that Minnesota follows the "line from Minnesota, skill from everywhere else" mentality. It's a myth.



It is quite deniable, actually. But don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant:

Purdue - worst graduation rates in Big Ten athletics for players entering 2000-2003

Minnesota's graduation rates growing faster than any other Big Ten school as of 2010

Michigan St. lowest among Big Ten schools in football graduation rate (2007)

Minnesota ahead of Iowa, Nebraska and Purdue in 4-year grad rates

Those damn statistics have to go and ruin everything!



What claim? That the U needs to improve its graduation rates? Well, duh. Last time I checked, there are no schools graduating 100% of their general population or their athlete population, so every school everywhere should be focused on improving their graduation rates. The U has historically been pretty bad, but certainly not the worst, and they have been making great strides within and outside the athletic department that both predate Jerry Kill's arrival.

Not only that, but black athletes graduate at a worse rate than any other segment of the population. So, the gist of the article is that the U is supposed to recruit more city conference players, which would not only make the team worse, but would almost certainly make the graduation rates even worse than they already are? Awesome! What a terrific article!
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Okay, I'll bite. I know of a player that was born and raised in Saint Paul and has been show interest by the likes of Notre Dame and Stanford (and yes he has the grades to go there), but to paraphrase this person, " The U doesn't know how to recruit. They only want skill players/ DB's from down south."

Frankly, I don't care very much about some of the opinions on this board, but I do care when potential players right in our backyard feel this way.

Again, Perception is reality. Even if the perception is inaccurate.
 

STPGopher said:
WAKE UP PEOPLE! Forget the author for a minute. There is a negative perception that the U can change to a victory. What Kill did was a HUGE step one. No matter what there will always be someone to remind others that Kill CARED enough to visit during a difficult time and offered chances to attend his camp. That act alone will get many people to think that hey maybe coach Kill/ the University does care. One of the main points was the U shows the "community" no love. Kill's actions are a big step toward dispelling that notion. My guess is he may have motivated a few youth to dream of being a Gopher.

FORGET Your sensitivity. Focus on the program and better yet solutions to helping the innercity conferences. The U could really be a beacon of hope here. Much like the U the inner city conferences (St.Paul and Minneapolis) once were great and could at minimum be good again. No there may not be super teams that emerge from the two conferences, but with help, individual talent could be developed on both sides of the river. It wouldn't take much to show that while playing at the U may seam like a huge mountain, with some talent and tons of desire, it's not impossible.

Regarding Fitzgerald's father, I was told that he felt that Clem got thrown under the bus. Due to negative perceptions that already existed at that time, it basically stuck with little challenge.
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Dude, you're not getting the point. My point is to argue and disprove the absolute trash that this author spit out, basically accusing past and present Gopher coaches of selective recruitment, bias, and even racism. That's it.

If you want to debate how to better develop Minneapolis and St. Paul kids to make our city football program stronger and get more FBS athletes to come out of there, then start a new thread. I think most on this board (and Jerry Kill, not to mention every other former U coach) would love for this to happen, as it would only better the program in the long run. But that's not the topic of discussion of this thread.
 

STPGopher said:
Okay, I'll bite. I know of a player that was born and raised in Saint Paul and has been show interest by the likes of Notre Dame and Stanford (and yes he has the grades to go there), but to paraphrase this person, " The U doesn't know how to recruit. They only want skill players/ DB's from down south."

Frankly, I don't care very much about some of the opinions on this board, but I do care when potential players right in our backyard feel this way.

Again, Perception is reality. Even if the perception is inaccurate.
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OMG - one guy you talked to feels slighted by the U! All Gopher coaches past & present must have a selective bias toward African-Americans, specifically in the Minneapolis city league! After all, that is what Hallman is suggesting.

Please show me concrete facts over a period of time that prove that Gopher coaches have consistently treated Minneapolis city recruits different than other major college football programs have over that same time. Then I'll buy into your defense of this ridiculous article. I'll be waiting.
 

Perception is not reality, reality is reality. If the U can work to help improve the quality of metro football, that's good. But if BCS talent isn't there, simply recruiting the city won't make it appear.
 

If the Gophers need to help improve the quality of city football where do the Vikings stand in all this? Should they also help? IMO, yes.
 

Current Gopher Ra'shede Hageman went to Minneapolis Washburn. Just throwing two cents on the table.
As a basketball coach at one of these considered city schools, I will comment on this topic later, I got to get back to work.
 

" The U doesn't know how to recruit. They only want skill players/ DB's from down south."


Devin Crawford-Tufts, Lamonte Edwards, Brandon Green, Marquies Gray, Moses Alipate, Rashede Hageman(was a TE when recruited), Grayson Levine, Kim Royston, James Manual, JD Pride, Shady Salaman, Kenny Watkins, to name a few, all skills players from MINN or miidwest. We certainly tried to recruit Larry Fitzgerald, Bryce McNeal, Michael Floyd, Brandon Robinson, David Gilreath, Dominique Byrd, John Carlson, James Farrow, Fritz Rock, Corey Frazier, John Nance, Andre Tate, Shane Potter, Jordan McMichael, Alexander Robinson, Jay Thomas, Nate Swift, Marion and Dom Barber, all skill players from MINN in recent years, and there are plenty more from midwest.

Then this year Andre McDonald was our first offer, Maxx Williams and Will Johnson, both qb's from here, DB Charles Webb and RB Antonio Ford will likely receive offers when they qualify.

I guarantee that every year in every state there are plenty of kids who feel slighted by the big homestate universities, we are no exception. Even if we had an all Minnesota recruiting class, there would be local kids bitching, saying we recruit to many west metro kids, outstate kids, whatever the excuse. Unfortunately, if people don't won't to bother to look up the facts, then there is very little anybody else can do to change there incorrect perception.
 

JohnnyGopher said:
" The U doesn't know how to recruit. They only want skill players/ DB's from down south."


Devin Crawford-Tufts, Lamonte Edwards, Brandon Green, Marquies Gray, Moses Alipate, Rashede Hageman(was a TE when recruited), Grayson Levine, Kim Royston, James Manual, JD Pride, Shady Salaman, Kenny Watkins, to name a few, all skills players from MINN or miidwest. We certainly tried to recruit Larry Fitzgerald, Bryce McNeal, Michael Floyd, Brandon Robinson, David Gilreath, Dominique Byrd, John Carlson, James Farrow, Fritz Rock, Corey Frazier, John Nance, Andre Tate, Shane Potter, Jordan McMichael, Alexander Robinson, Jay Thomas, Nate Swift, Marion and Dom Barber, all skill players from MINN in recent years, and there are plenty more from midwest.

Then this year Andre McDonald was our first offer, Maxx Williams and Will Johnson, both qb's from here, DB Charles Webb and RB Antonio Ford will likely receive offers when they qualify.

I guarantee that every year in every state there are plenty of kids who feel slighted by the big homestate universities, we are no exception. Even if we had an all Minnesota recruiting class, there would be local kids bitching, saying we recruit to many west metro kids, outstate kids, whatever the excuse. Unfortunately, if people don't won't to bother to look up the facts, then there is very little anybody else can do to change there incorrect perception.
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Thank you JG. Given your recruiting knowledge and info inside the program I hope this puts to bed any ridiculous thoughts that Gopher coaches have a history of bias to the degree that this agenda-driven and factually-challenged writer claims.
 

+1000 JG. Nice use of...what's the word I'm looking for...facts.
 

josh087 said:
Dude, you're not getting the point. My point is to argue and disprove the absolute trash that this author spit out, basically accusing past and present Gopher coaches of selective recruitment, bias, and even racism. That's it.

If you want to debate how to better develop Minneapolis and St. Paul kids to make our city football program stronger and get more FBS athletes to come out of there, then start a new thread. I think most on this board (and Jerry Kill, not to mention every other former U coach) would love for this to happen, as it would only better the program in the long run. But that's not the topic of discussion of this thread.
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Two things, #1 is that unfortunately that perception is real. Like it or not. #2 Is that Kill did all right things and IMO will change that perception. You don't fix the problem by attacking the author of the article. You (The University of Minnesota) fix it by walking tall and showing that it isn't the case. I couldn't possibly care less about the author of the article, but I do care about the U of M's athletic department and more specifically the football program.

BTW This is a sports board and yes it is a part of the conversation. Again simple things like Kill going to North Minneapolis after the tornado are far reaching. Highlighting the Gopher great that has a dental Practice in North Minneapolis and is a wonderful example of what you can do with a U of M degree is part of the solution. In the end, It won't take much to get the perception changed to be that if a player is good enough, he'll be recruited fairly by the University.

End of rant.
 

JohnnyGopher said:
" The U doesn't know how to recruit. They only want skill players/ DB's from down south."


Devin Crawford-Tufts, Lamonte Edwards, Brandon Green, Marquies Gray, Moses Alipate, Rashede Hageman(was a TE when recruited), Grayson Levine, Kim Royston, James Manual, JD Pride, Shady Salaman, Kenny Watkins, to name a few, all skills players from MINN or miidwest. We certainly tried to recruit Larry Fitzgerald, Bryce McNeal, Michael Floyd, Brandon Robinson, David Gilreath, Dominique Byrd, John Carlson, James Farrow, Fritz Rock, Corey Frazier, John Nance, Andre Tate, Shane Potter, Jordan McMichael, Alexander Robinson, Jay Thomas, Nate Swift, Marion and Dom Barber, all skill players from MINN in recent years, and there are plenty more from midwest.

Then this year Andre McDonald was our first offer, Maxx Williams and Will Johnson, both qb's from here, DB Charles Webb and RB Antonio Ford will likely receive offers when they qualify.

I guarantee that every year in every state there are plenty of kids who feel slighted by the big homestate universities, we are no exception. Even if we had an all Minnesota recruiting class, there would be local kids bitching, saying we recruit to many west metro kids, outstate kids, whatever the excuse. Unfortunately, if people don't won't to bother to look up the facts, then there is very little anybody else can do to change there incorrect perception.
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Decent list Johnny, but you're wrong on Swift. He was never offered.

Good discussion and there has been a puzzling rift between the U and the local African-American community for a number of years. Don't know why per se, but my guess is Kill will do everything he can to heal it.
 

A number of people have already brought it up, but the fact is, the football programs, and many of the sports programs in general in the city conferences, simply aren't very good, and the good players go the open enrollment route. Just look at Hopkins Basketball. The suburban schools have the feeder programs that start in grade school, and the funding that goes along with them. The city has, as mentioned, the park board.I think the U would recruit Minneapolis and St. Paul if the talent was there, but for the most part, it isn't, and if it is, the guys open enroll elsewhere. Hallman seems to think there's this pot of gold of untapped football talent in the Minneapolis School District, but it just doesn't exist.
 

funny you should mention Hopkins basketball in this discussion because they have had more than there share of good North Minneapolis kids the past 10 years.
 

I wish I worked for some random nondescript newspaper so I could write an agenda-pushing article about how the Dakotas are a vast untapped mine of Division I football talent and how the U is locationist because they don't recruit more players from the Dakotas.
 

JohnnyGopher said:
funny you should mention Hopkins basketball in this discussion because they have had more than there share of good North Minneapolis kids the past 10 years.
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No can't be. People born with in the cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul have NO talent whatsoever.;)
 

Haven't read the thread really but while we're all free to agree or disagree but the truth is that many people in the city feel that the U has not shown much attention to urban, public school black kids and we've definitely lost a few recruits because of it.
 

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