Carter the best player????

[underground629]

Way to ignore everything else. I've seen Missouri play, I know what you're talking about, but once again, different team, different coach, different style, not going into all that *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# again. By consistent I mean that he was our best overall player so he needed minutes no matter what. Maybe he wasn't always consistent offensively, but he will still our second leading score, shot a very high percentage, and easily played the best defense. It's not like he had huge scoring nights and then contributed nothing to the team the next game. So yeah, I guess he was pretty consistent when compared to the rest of the team. Name 4 other players who deserved way more minutes than the rest of the team on a consistent basis. What would your "real rotation" be?

If you don't know see the pertinence of Missouri in a conversation about fatigue and basketball, then you are on your own. And Damian Johnson was hardly consistent.

 

[From the Barn]

You do realize he scored 6 or fewer points 10 times, right?

And you already decided Tubby's substitution "patterns" were flawless, so what is the point?

 

[underground629]

Still finding one thing to jump on while ignoring everything else. I didn't realize that you should only judge a player based on how many points they score. Do you really expect college basketball players to score around their average every night? If we wasn't using his energy to be our best defender and if he took more shots, he could have scored more points. I didn't decide that our substitution patterns were "flawless", I merely pointed out reasons for why he substituted the way he did. Once again, what would your "real rotation" have been for the team last year?

You do realize he scored 6 or fewer points 10 times, right?

And you already decided Tubby's substitution "patterns" were flawless, so what is the point?

 

[Plinnius]

Done what?... Maybe you quoted the wrong thing I guess.

Didn't I already point out some of the things that Carter does very well?

I guess you could argue that Rodney and Carter are similar. They both have tools to be good, but neither have really proven it in the Big Ten yet. Obviously Rodney hasn't had a chance, but he is similar to Carter in the sense that he has the tools to be good but it's hard to tell how good he will be.

You could say that they are dissimilar in the sense that Carter has demonstrated that he possesses actual basketball skills.

 

[Plinnius]

To summarize, you think that Westbrook and DJ are "maxed out", meaning they won't be All Big Ten this year,

Right.

and you say that we can't be a top 25 team without someone who is All Big Ten,

Yes.

yet we are ranked top 25 by every site, and we don't currently have an All Big Ten player returning,

Right.

and if anyone does make All Big Ten, it will likely either be Westbrook and DJ.

Which I wouldn't agree with.

So in what way have I proven your point?

 

[underground629]

Well obviously if you're comparing them right now we know that Carter has shown more basketball skills than Rodney. Carter has played a year of JUCO and a year in the Big Ten, Rodney has played in the post on a terrible high school team. I think it's a little unfair to make any judgment right now.

You've pointed out some things Carter does well, such as rebounding and FT percentage, which I agree with, but we can also point out individual things that Rodney does well too. It's not like Carter has all of these basketball skills and Rodney doesn't have any. Just because he does them well because of his athleticism doesn't mean they aren't just as effective (defense, rebounding, dunking). Carter has shown that he can get his shot off, but it never goes in, so that doesn't matter that much. Nolen can get his shot off too, but it doesn't go in, so he's in the same boat as Carter.

Didn't I already point out some of the things that Carter does very well?



You could say that they are dissimilar in the sense that Carter has demonstrated that he possesses actual basketball skills.

 

[underground629]

Fair enough. I just find it hard to believe that you would really think that if we do have a player make All Big Ten that it would be someone other than DJ or Westbrook. So you're assuming that DJ and Westbrook will not improve, one of the returning players will drastically improve since nobody else was anywhere close to making All Big Ten last year, or else that White will make All Big Ten as a freshmen (pretty damn tough), or else Mbakwe will (assuming he's even playing, starting over Royce, and playing at a level high enough to earn All Big Ten). I'd say the chances of either DJ or Westbrook making it or else that nobody makes it are much higher than a different player making it.

Right.



Yes.



Right.



Which I wouldn't agree with.

So in what way have I proven your point?

 

[dingo]

I think one thing to remember with the All B10 talk and number of minutes stuff is that this team still isn't overly talented. Lets be honest here
RSIII
Royce White
Rodney Williams
Colt -45 (maybe)
Joseph
Cobbs (maybe)

Those are the only guys on the team that were fairly highly recruited. Everyone else is just giving a ton of effort out there. I did have issues with the substitution patterns last year as our offense struggled to find any rhythm and Tubby tended to yank guys when they were the only ones making things happen offensively. Plus his lineups often baffled me. However he's the pro and gets paid the big money. Still I think at times Tubby operates like a HS coach or a guy with a deep (and talented roster) by pulling anyone that makes mental errors or gives less than maximum effort and is willing to play less talented guys to prove his point which is why we'd see lineups with Hoff, JAS, and Busch at the 2-4 spots even when Busch was giving up 5 inches and we couldn't generate offense.

I would have argue Hoffarber was Highly Recruited... Maybe more than anyone on the list besides White and Joseph. He had offers from Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Oregon and a late offer from Louisville
BH Offers

Same goes for Westbrook. With offers from Memphis, Arizona State and according to Rivals Syracuse. (Although I dont recall the Syracuse offer)
LW Offers

 

[Weisbrod]

Well obviously if you're comparing them right now we know that Carter has shown more basketball skills than Rodney. Carter has played a year of JUCO and a year in the Big Ten, Rodney has played in the post on a terrible high school team. I think it's a little unfair to make any judgment right now.

You've pointed out some things Carter does well, such as rebounding and FT percentage, which I agree with, but we can also point out individual things that Rodney does well too. It's not like Carter has all of these basketball skills and Rodney doesn't have any. Just because he does them well because of his athleticism doesn't mean they aren't just as effective (defense, rebounding, dunking). Carter has shown that he can get his shot off, but it never goes in, so that doesn't matter that much. Nolen can get his shot off too, but it doesn't go in, so he's in the same boat as Carter.

Just a small correction. Robbinsdale Cooper was not a terrible team. I'm not sure it matters in this discussion, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Weisbrod]

National magazine predictions on Gophs

nm

 

[sec105]

I couldn't let this pass uncontested...

Carter...I remember one bad play and that was when he dribbled the ball off his knee in the Wisky game, which we eventually won mainly because of him [Carter] (Westbrook was too busy pouting to get back on that play...

I couldn't let this pass uncontested.

Westbrook was the single most important reason we won both Wisconsin games, not Carter.

 

[oleboy41]

I couldn't let this pass uncontested.

Westbrook was the single most important reason we won both Wisconsin games, not Carter.

maybe so but on that particular play LW stopped and pouted while Wisky was going in for a layup when he could've easily got back and fouled. Carter actually hustled back (he was at mid court while LW was around the defensive 3 point line) and fouled Landry who missed one of the free throws. Carter was also the guy that hustled to get the big block before DJ's big 3 (which was off of a blocked shot LW forced up terribly). Point is that without either of those 2 plays of sheer effort, we have no shot at winning that game and for LW to be the hero. The truth is he got hot and carried us but he also made a few plays (or didn't make them) that almost killed us and those were 2 plays that showed bad effort, attitude and decision making. I love LW too but some of the things he does on the court frustrate me. Plus for some reason he just always seems a bit aloof

 

[underground629]

You're right, I'm not sure why I said that. It was just frustrating watching the way Rodney had to play for them, but that happens in high school basketball sometimes because size can be an issue for teams.

Just a small correction. Robbinsdale Cooper was not a terrible team. I'm not sure it matters in this discussion, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Plinnius]

but we can also point out individual things that Rodney does well too. It's not like Carter has all of these basketball skills and Rodney doesn't have any.

Other than running and jumping, what does Rodney do well?

Carter has shown that he can get his shot off, but it never goes in, so that doesn't matter that much.

Sure it does. The player that can handle the ball and create shots for himself can always improve on his ability to put the ball in the basket, whereas the guy that can shoot the ball but can't handle the ball and create shots for himself is stuck with limited offensive potential. It's what separates the Manny Harrises from the Damian Johnsons.

 

[Plinnius]

I just find it hard to believe that you would really think that if we do have a player make All Big Ten that it would be someone other than DJ or Westbrook.

Why? Haven't they already proven that they're not All-Big Ten material? Wouldn't it make more sense to roll the dice with the player that has the potential be All-Big Ten?

So you're assuming that DJ and Westbrook will not improve, one of the returning players will drastically improve since nobody else was anywhere close to making All Big Ten last year, or else that White will make All Big Ten as a freshmen (pretty damn tough), or else Mbakwe will (assuming he's even playing, starting over Royce, and playing at a level high enough to earn All Big Ten).

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[underground629]

I'd say running and jumping are pretty important in basketball. This may be hard for you to believe, but Rodney has more potential than Carter. When a player has that kind of athleticism with Tubby coaching him, it probably won't be hard for Rodney to be a good defender. I've only seen Rodney play 3 times, I'm guessing you haven't seen him play that many times either to judge his whole game, but what he can do, he does pretty well. From what I've seen he looks like a good defender and he has the tools to be a great defender (I realize we'll have to wait and see before we judge him), he plays hard, rebounds fairly well, and there's nothing wrong with him scoring a lot of dunks. He also looks to be a much more unselfish player than Carter. Yeah, he needs to add a lot to his offensive game and he won't be able to dunk all that often in college, but at least his shots are high percentage shots, unlike Carter's shots.

Other than running and jumping, what does Rodney do well?

Sure it does. The player that can handle the ball and create shots for himself can always improve on his ability to put the ball in the basket, whereas the guy that can shoot the ball but can't handle the ball and create shots for himself is stuck with limited offensive potential. It's what separates the Manny Harrises from the Damian Johnsons.

Who are you to be this almighty judge of potential? Is it set in stone that a player can't improve shot creating for himself? You can always say that a player has potential to shoot better, but from watching Carter last year, it doesn't look like he'll ever be that effective of a jump shooter. His shot selection wasn't good, and his shots were way off a ton of the time. I remember quite a few airballs from him last year.

Damian Johnson can't shoot the ball? Why do you hate him so much? He shot almost 50% from the field and he scored like 10 a game, all while playing great defense. Who cares how DJ scores? He does well enough offensively in addition to being our best defender, and he makes almost as many as he misses. Carter takes terrible shots, misses most of them, and shoots way too often for how effective he is at scoring. All he really does that well is rebound and get fouled and shoot fts well. A decent amount of Carter's rebounds last year were off multiple missed shots in a row from himself right under the basket.

 

[underground629]

No...they still have their senior year. Westbrook was honorable mention, so it's not like he is that far off to start with, and DJ was All Defensive Team and our second leading scorer, so he probably wasn't all that far off either. It's not like either of them have gotten worse either, they've each improved each year, who's to say they won't improve this year as well?

There you go with the potential crap again. You should seriously consider scouting for a team. You seem to be able to judge every player's potential.

Why? Haven't they already proven that they're not All-Big Ten material? Wouldn't it make more sense to roll the dice with the player that has the potential be All-Big Ten?



Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Plinnius]

I'd say running and jumping are pretty important in basketball. This may be hard for you to believe, but Rodney has more potential than Carter.

How is his ball handling?

Is it set in stone that a player can't improve shot creating for himself?

If you're a weak ball handler as a high school senior, it's very, very likely you will always be a weak ball handler. Certainly never a good ball handler. And if you're not AT LEAST an average ball handler, you're going to have a difficult time creating shots for yourself.

You see it all the time in scouting reports. "If so and so becomes a better ball handler . . ." Almost never happens. That's why the Kevin McHales of the world waste high draft picks on guys like Corey Brewer

Damian Johnson can't shoot the ball?

No, I said that Damian Johnson has weak handles.

Why do you hate him so much?

All I've said is that Johnson is a role player and we won't go far in the tournament as long as he remains the team's best player. Why is that not a fair and objective assessment?

 

[Plinnius]

It's not like either of them have gotten worse either, they've each improved each year, who's to say they won't improve this year as well?

Did they really improve from 07-08 to 08-09? If there was any improvement, it was pretty marginal.

There you go with the potential crap again. You should seriously consider scouting for a team. You seem to be able to judge every player's potential.

What's so ironic about such a statement is that you just hyped the potential of the team's rawest player, a guy that is nothing but potential.

 

[underground629]

Honestly, I haven't seen Rodney enough to really judge him, especially when I haven't seen him in a college game, but when I watched him it wasn't as much that his handles were terrible, it was just that he never really tried to dribble by anyone. If you can make the argument that a poor ball handler will always be a poor ball handler, can't you say the same thing about shooting? People don't usually all of a sudden become a much better shooter this late in their life. They can improve their shot selection, but watching Carter shoot last year it wasn't just his selection, it was that he just can't shoot accurately. I don't see why that can change but ball handling can't. I wasn't all that impressed watching Carter dribble last year either.

Brewer has more problems on offense than just ball handling. For one, at least his rookie year, he couldn't shoot to save his life.

DJ may not have great handles, but their good enough to get the job done. Yeah, we aren't going to be a final four team if DJ is our best player, but that doesn't mean that we can't still be a very good team.

How is his ball handling?



If you're a weak ball handler as a high school senior, it's very, very likely you will always be a weak ball handler. Certainly never a good ball handler. And if you're not AT LEAST an average ball handler, you're going to have a difficult time creating shots for yourself.

You see it all the time in scouting reports. "If so and so becomes a better ball handler . . ." Almost never happens. That's why the Kevin McHales of the world waste high draft picks on guys like Corey Brewer



No, I said that Damian Johnson has weak handles.



All I've said is that Johnson is a role player and we won't go far in the tournament as long as he remains the team's best player. Why is that not a fair and objective assessment?

 

[underground629]

Of course you wouldn't give them any credit. But yes, they did really improve.

Did they really improve from 07-08 to 08-09? If there was any improvement, it was pretty marginal.


What's so ironic about such a statement is that you just hyped the potential of the team's rawest player, a guy that is nothing but potential.

A lot of judging someone's potential is just opinion. Obviously there are factors that can really increase or decrease someone's ceiling such as height and athleticism, but still, a lot is just opinion. I don't think I would be in the minority in saying that Rodney has an extremely high ceiling. I also mentioned that he has an extremely long way to go, but he's also a freshman so he has plenty of time. Is there a problem with hyping the potential of a player? Haven't you already done the same thing with Carter?

 

[Plinnius]

If you can make the argument that a poor ball handler will always be a poor ball handler, can't you say the same thing about shooting? People don't usually all of a sudden become a much better shooter this late in their life.

No, because you see significant spikes in shooting percentages all the time among young college players. DJ and Westbrook shot just 37% from the field during his first year of action.

You can, however, probably rule out Carter ever becoming a good/great jump shooter.

I don't see why that can change but ball handling can't.

Because it just doesn't. I suppose dribbling requires dexterity, and the dexterity of one's hands/arms is determined by wiring in your brain. Frankly, I think that ball handling is probably more of a tool than a skill.

Brewer has more problems on offense than just ball handling. For one, at least his rookie year, he couldn't shoot to save his life.

Sure, but a lack of ball handling is what we ultimately prevent him from becoming Scottie Pippen 2.0.

DJ may not have great handles, but their good enough to get the job done.

They're good enough to make you the second leading scorer on one of the Big Ten's worst offenses.

Yeah, we aren't going to be a final four team if DJ is our best player, but that doesn't mean that we can't still be a very good team.

I don't know. We were a top 50ish team last year. Going from that to very good seems like it would take a few players making sizable improvements, sizable enough that it would make them better players than Johnson.

 

[Plinnius]

Of course you wouldn't give them any credit. But yes, they did really improve.

In what areas?

I don't think I would be in the minority in saying that Rodney has an extremely high ceiling.

Depends on his ball handling.

Is there a problem with hyping the potential of a player? Haven't you already done the same thing with Carter?

Seriously? You're going to say that after you just admonished me for prattling on about potential?