Carter the best player????

[underground629]

Yes. We didn't have a single player make All-Big Ten (1st, 2nd, or 3rd team).




Then we won't be anywhere close to a top 25 team and will get bounced in the first round of the tournament again.

Even if DJ and Westbrook play exactly like they did last year and we have nobody make All Big Ten, I'm pretty sure we would still be a top 25 team. Considering we lost absolutely nothing, our new players who were all key young players (except Bostick) will all improve, and not to mention a pretty damn good incoming freshman class. I'm not sure how we wouldn't be a top 25 team. Either way, DJ and Westbrook weren't really that far off from being All Big Ten, and I don't think it would be shocking if one or both of them make it this year.

I don't know what you have against DJ. You seem to think that Carter has all of this potential, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. You can pretty much say any player has a lot of potential. Carter has good handles for someone his size but not good enough that they would really be that big of a factor, and his jump shot is horrible. He also shoots way too much and doesn't have a great shot selection to add to the fact that he's not a good shooter. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he has potential to be such a better shooter. I don't remember thinking that his form looked that great. Even if it is, it rarely went in, so I guess his form doesn't really matter then. He's still a long way away from being as good as DJ.

 

[station19]

Many people say the biggest improvement in players is from year one to year two.-Bobby Jackson comes to mind.-That being said this should be a fun year to watch with Bostic, Carter, Iverson, Sampson and Joseph entering year #2.

 

[Plinnius]

he had to deal with a broken hand injury last year.

So? Carter had to deal with a sprained ankle. I think a sprained ankle is a bit worse than a broken non-shooting hand.

I think Carter has potential, but if he ever becomes as good an all around player as DJ, I would be very surprised and pleased. I'm not negative on Carter..I just think your posts are very insulting to a player like DJ.

Johnson's not a good all around player. He's a good one-dimensional defensive specialist.

 

[CaliforniaGopher]

Plinnius, there you go hating on DJ again

<<Johnson's not a good all around player. He's a good one-dimensional defensive specialist.>>

There you go hating on DJ again. I think most informed fans considered DJ and Westbrook the best players on last year's team.

DJ has been called "Mr. Everything" and Tubby said he has the potential to be a Tayshuan Prince like player, saying "the sky's the limit"

-----------------------
From Tribune:

Johnson deserves the nickname Mr. Everything. He's second on the team in scoring (9.7 points per game) and steals (57), leads the Gophers in blocks (59) and is third in rebounding (4.2 per game). He was the Gophers' top scorer in the Big Ten tournament (13.5 points per game)...Rarely does an opponent have a better all-around skill set than Johnson...

Gophers men's basketball coach Tubby Smith has previously compared junior standout Damian Johnson with Tayshaun Prince.... Asked if Johnson can reach Prince's heights, Smith said: "That's a good question. Damian has a lot to learn as far as he has to develop some outside shooting at that size [6-7]. But, if he continues to work on his game, the sky's the limit.

 

[Plinnius]

Even if DJ and Westbrook play exactly like they did last year and we have nobody make All Big Ten, I'm pretty sure we would still be a top 25 team. Considering we lost absolutely nothing, our new players who were all key young players (except Bostick) will all improve, and not to mention a pretty damn good incoming freshman class. I'm not sure how we wouldn't be a top 25 team.

You're not sure how a team without a single All Big Ten players wouldn't be a top 25 team?

You can pretty much say any player has a lot of potential.

You can't say that about DJ or Westbrook. They're about maxed out.

Carter has good handles for someone his size but not good enough that they would really be that big of a factor

His handles are good enough that he can create scoring opportunities for himself.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that he has potential to be such a better shooter.

Unlike rebounding and ball handling, it's the one thing that most players can improve upon with practice.

 

[Plinnius]

<<Johnson's not a good all around player. He's a good one-dimensional defensive specialist.>>

There you go hating on DJ again. I think most informed fans considered DJ and Westbrook the best players on last year's team.

DJ has been called "Mr. Everything" and Tubby said he has the potential to be a Tayshuan Prince like player, saying "the sky's the limit"

-----------------------
From Tribune:

Johnson deserves the nickname Mr. Everything. He's second on the team in scoring (9.7 points per game) and steals (57), leads the Gophers in blocks (59) and is third in rebounding (4.2 per game). He was the Gophers' top scorer in the Big Ten tournament (13.5 points per game)...Rarely does an opponent have a better all-around skill set than Johnson...

Gophers men's basketball coach Tubby Smith has previously compared junior standout Damian Johnson with Tayshaun Prince.... Asked if Johnson can reach Prince's heights, Smith said: "That's a good question. Damian has a lot to learn as far as he has to develop some outside shooting at that size [6-7]. But, if he continues to work on his game, the sky's the limit.

What point are you trying to make? That relative to his teammates, he was a pretty good player? We knew that. Relative to the rest of the country, he's not nearly as great.

As for the Prince comparison, come on. Tubby compared Nolen to Rondo.

 

[tikited]

I'll compare Carter with Johnson.

Rebounding: ENORMOUS edge to Carter. Carter averaged 11.25 REB/40 to Johnson's 6.29. Carter's offensive rebounding rate ranked amongst the best in the country and was actually better than that of guys like Blake Griffin and Hasheem Thabeet. Carter might be the best rebounder in the country capable of playing the 3.

Ball handling/shot creation: Edge to Carter.

FT shooting: Carter - 77.3%, Johnson - 67.1%. Carter with the sizable edge.

FD/40 (Fouls drawn per 40 min): Carter 5.1, Johnson 3.9. Only Westbrook (5.3) draws more fouls than Carter.

Defense: Johnson, but Carter has the tools to become his near-equal.

Outside shooting: Neither should attempt 3-pointers.

Offensive efficiency: Carter's biggest fault that needs to be improved upon. Johnson shot 48.5% from the field, Carter shot just 36.2%. Huge edge for Johnson.

Passing: Remember how Carter carved up Michigan's 1-3-1 zone at Crisler? Edge to Carter.

And yet, Johnson is waaaay better overall. He just is.. I hope they both can improve. If they do... watch-out.

 

[SelectionSunday]

I like the fact we're debating over who's the better player, DJ or Carter, two guys I think have proven/will prove to be productive Big 10 players. It sure beats the good ole' days of trumpeting the likes of Miles Webb, Aliou Kane and Kris Collins as potential stalwarts in the Gopher program.

 

[Winnipegopher]

Why is DJ maxed out?
Every year he has gotten way better.

-2005-2006 team: redshirted on a bad team
-2006-2007 played sparingly on a bad team. Wasted scholarship to almost all who followed Gophers.
-2007-2008 Became key role player
-2008-2009 Became arguably best player
-2009-2010 ???? but I expect big things

Every year he has gotten significantly better. If only every player devleoped as much.

 

[tikited]

Why is DJ maxed out?
Every year he has gotten way better.

-2005-2006 team: redshirted on a bad team
-2006-2007 played sparingly on a bad team. Wasted scholarship to almost all who followed Gophers.
-2007-2008 Became key role player
-2008-2009 Became arguably best player
-2009-2010 ???? but I expect big things

Every year he has gotten significantly better. If only every player devleoped as much.

Word...Money...Right on... Whatever the kids are saying these days.

 

[underground629]

And Carter specializes in what? Just rebounding? DJ isn't that bad on offense. He doesn't have great skills but he was still our second leading scorer and he shot a really high percentage. I guess you must think that Carter is an offensive stud with that great shot and shooting percentage he has.

So? Carter had to deal with a sprained ankle. I think a sprained ankle is a bit worse than a broken non-shooting hand.




Johnson's not a good all around player. He's a good one-dimensional defensive specialist.

 

[underground629]

Let's think about this Plinnius... you say DJ and Westbrook are maxed out on potential, meaning they won't be All Big Ten next year, yet we're still ranked top 25 on every site. So yeah, even if we have nobody All Big Ten next year, you're probably the only one who thinks we can't be a top 25 team. It's called hard defense, depth, and unselfish basketball. You don't always need one person to be flashy and score all the points.

So do you think that someone else will be All Big Ten? Carter? I suppose he has potential to be All American in your eyes. Yeah, Carter does have good enough handles to create scoring opportunities for himself, except that he doesn't score most of them. What did you say his shooting percentage was again?

You're not sure how a team without a single All Big Ten players wouldn't be a top 25 team?



You can't say that about DJ or Westbrook. They're about maxed out.



His handles are good enough that he can create scoring opportunities for himself.



Unlike rebounding and ball handling, it's the one thing that most players can improve upon with practice.

 

[underground629]

Because Plinnius scouts for NBA teams so he's a great judge of potential. His thinking is that since Carter shoots such a low percentage that of course he has potential to do better.

Why is DJ maxed out?
Every year he has gotten way better.

-2005-2006 team: redshirted on a bad team
-2006-2007 played sparingly on a bad team. Wasted scholarship to almost all who followed Gophers.
-2007-2008 Became key role player
-2008-2009 Became arguably best player
-2009-2010 ???? but I expect big things

Every year he has gotten significantly better. If only every player devleoped as much.

 

[MRJ]

Lets be honest, here. DJ is a very good defender and a mediocre offensive player at best right now. He has some moments offensively and got some ok results but he'll never be known as a 'good' offensive player. His form is bad and his handles are very shaky. The reason people like Carter is because he has the POTENTIAL to get a lot better. Last year the guy was solid but showed flashes of ability at both ends that lead one to believe that he can be pretty good on both ends. His handle is pretty good, he's athletic, and his form isn't bad on his J. Plus he has 2 years left while DJ is a 5th year senior. I love both guys and I hope both improve a ton, but I'm more excited about Carter's potential

In having read the posts on this issue, I must say it is an interesting debate. Here's my take: As of right now, Damian is our best all-around player. He scores around 10 per game, which isn't much. But he comes up with big defensive plays nearly every game, which is huge for the overall makeup of our team. From my perspective, Carter has more athleticism and offensive talent. The first time I saw him play, he reminded me of a very raw version of Willie Burton.

I'm not saying that he'll turn out to be the stud that Burton was, but there are some similarities in terms of physical build and overall athleticism. If he can develop his jumpshot more, I really like what he could become. If not, he'll continue to be tough on the boards and be good on the various traps and presses that we run defensively.

But from an overall perspective, I really don't prefer one or the other. Honestly, I like them both a lot. They just play such different styles, it's hard to compare.

 

[Plinnius]

Why is DJ maxed out?
Every year he has gotten way better.

-2005-2006 team: redshirted on a bad team
-2006-2007 played sparingly on a bad team. Wasted scholarship to almost all who followed Gophers.
-2007-2008 Became key role player
-2008-2009 Became arguably best player
-2009-2010 ???? but I expect big things

Every year he has gotten significantly better. If only every player devleoped as much.

DJ didn't get "way better" or "significantly better" between 07-08 and 08-09. He was largely the same player.

 

[Plinnius]

And Carter specializes in what? Just rebounding?

As of now. However, on a team coached by Tubby, there is no way that a guy with Carter's length, athleticism, and fire doesn't also become an excellent defender. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Plinnius]

Let's think about this Plinnius... you say DJ and Westbrook are maxed out on potential, meaning they won't be All Big Ten next year, yet we're still ranked top 25 on every site.

Of course. We have some stellar sophomores that can make sizable improvements and a couple of high impact recruits..

So yeah, even if we have nobody All Big Ten next year, you're probably the only one who thinks we can't be a top 25 team.

Why would you presume that I'm the only one?

So do you think that someone else will be All Big Ten? Carter?

Carter could be. Sampson could be. White could be. Joseph could. Mbakwe, if he plays, could be.

Yeah, Carter does have good enough handles to create scoring opportunities for himself, except that he doesn't score most of them. What did you say his shooting percentage was again?

36.2%. I've already said that he definitely needs to improve there.

 

[underground629]

Excellent defender? Not necessarily. Carter may have tools to be good in certain areas, but that doesn't mean he will be. Look at combines for sports. Scouts often times put too much value on tools to be good rather than looking at what players actually have done.

As of now. However, on a team coached by Tubby, there is no way that a guy with Carter's length, athleticism, and fire doesn't also become an excellent defender. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[underground629]

You've proved my point. You don't necessarily need someone to make all Big Ten to be a top 25 team. Have you not noticed that Tubby's style doesn't exactly make it easy for someone to make all Big Ten? He subs constantly, spreads the ball around, and wins by making every player work their ass off on defense. I'm sure Westbrook could have been All Big Ten last year if he played more minutes, didn't work as hard on defense, and took more shots, but obviously the team would be worse off. Just because nobody puts up huge numbers doesn't mean we aren't a top 25 team or that we don't have any players capable of putting up the number to be recognized as All Big Ten. That's just not how MN plays, and we're better off that way.

Of course. We have some stellar sophomores that can make sizable improvements and a couple of high impact recruits..

It's pretty widely accepted that we will likely be a top 25 team next year. It's also very likely that we will either 1. Have nobody who makes All Big Ten. Or 2. If anyone does make All Big Ten, it will likely be either Westbrook or Johnson.

Why would you presume that I'm the only one?

Well yes, I guess anyone on the team could be. Are those players more likely to make it than DJ or Westbrook? Pretty unlikely.

Carter could be. Sampson could be. White could be. Joseph could. Mbakwe, if he plays, could be.

So then you should probably agree that Carter has a long way to go before he is as good of an offensive player as DJ, at least in terms of points and shooting percentage. Then add to the fact that he's nowhere close on D either.

36.2%. I've already said that he definitely needs to improve there.

 

[From the Barn]

You've proved my point. You don't necessarily need someone to make all Big Ten to be a top 25 team. Have you not noticed that Tubby's style doesn't exactly make it easy for someone to make all Big Ten? He subs constantly, spreads the ball around, and wins by making every player work their ass off on defense. I'm sure Westbrook could have been All Big Ten last year if he played more minutes, didn't work as hard on defense, and took more shots, but obviously the team would be worse off. Just because nobody puts up huge numbers doesn't mean we aren't a top 25 team or that we don't have any players capable of putting up the number to be recognized as All Big Ten. That's just not how MN plays, and we're better off that way.

The Gophers would have been a lot better if there was a defined rotation and someone, anyone, was allowed to stay in the game for long stretches or if someone, anyone, was good enough to play more than 25 minutes per game.

 

[underground629]

I'm sure if the gophers had 5 players who were clearly better than the other players then Tubby would have played them a lot more. His system also isn't geared toward leaving the same players on the court for extensive amounts of time because they would be too fatigued to play the defense that he wants. Are you saying that with who we had last year we would have been better if Tubby picked 5 players to always play the majority of minutes while subbing little? or are you saying we would have been better if we had players who were capable of playing that long?

The Gophers would have been a lot better if there was a defined rotation and someone, anyone, was allowed to stay in the game for long stretches or if someone, anyone, was good enough to play more than 25 minutes per game.

 

[From the Barn]

Both. The Gophers do not have the most physically demanding style of play, not even close. Players were pulled if they made a mistake, not because of fatigue. Missouri managed to have 5 players over 20 minutes per game. If they can manage a real rotation, so can Tubby.

 

[Saber]

Couple things...

Tubby's not a guy who will play a player 37 minutes a game, he demands too much effort on both ends of the court for most players to be able to do that. But that doesn't mean he is afraid to play a guy 30 minutes a game, there just was no reason to do so last year. Damian was probably the closest last year, but he had some foul trouble occasionally, and we were sorely lacking some shooting, which he didn't help with.

As for Carter, people say he has a ton of potential, but some people here have a hard time quantifying the word. It's pretty nebulous, but here's why a lot of people see the potential. He's got all the physical tools you could ask for, he's got a decent handle, he plays hard. He has trouble with his shooting (serious trouble) and he fouls too often. People are optimistic about his shooting because he's actually a good free throw shooter, and that often means he's just playing too fast or still adjusting to the speed of a Big 10 game. Hopefully it means he can extend his range a bit too. He showed flashes last year.

At the very least, he was the best rebounder on our team last year, and to do that at the small forward position means he has great instincts to go along with his effort.

Now even if he improves, he needs to cut down on the fouls, his foul rate last year was VERY high. If he started and got big minutes, he would have had a lot of trouble, but because he came off the bench and didn't play huge minutes, it wasn't as big a deal. Again, hopefully that's just adjusting to the game, we'll see.

As for our best player... Westbrook will remain our best pure shooter, but I'm very hopeful for Joseph this season. Mbakwe will probably be our best rebounder, assuming he plays. I think Royce and Damian will both be better than Carter overall, but Carter is more of a pure small forward where as those guys are hybrid forwards. Sampson COULD have a monster season if he improves his strength/rebounding and starts hitting that 12-footer that he kept bricking last season. So no, I don't think Carter will be our best player, but I think he'll contribute nicely, and in 2010-11, I expect him to be right up there as one of our top players. It's very difficult to project players even 1 year out though.

I got a little long-winded here, but hopefully I clarified a bit about why a lot of people tout Carter's potential. If he improves his shooting and fouls (2 areas that generally show big improvement year to year, especially year 1 to year 2) he can be as good as he wants to be.

 

[Plinnius]

Excellent defender? Not necessarily. Carter may have tools to be good in certain areas, but that doesn't mean he will be. Look at combines for sports. Scouts often times put too much value on tools to be good rather than looking at what players actually have done.

Haven't I done that? I believe I have already cited many things that Carter did well last year.

It sounds like you're describing why guys like Rodney Williams are often overrated.

 

[Plinnius]

You've proved my point. You don't necessarily need someone to make all Big Ten to be a top 25 team.

In what way have I proved your point?

Have you not noticed that Tubby's style doesn't exactly make it easy for someone to make all Big Ten?

His style didn't stop guys like Chuck Hayes, Kelenna Azubuike, Tayshaun Prince, Keith Bogans, Erik Daniels, etc. from making All SEC.

 

[oleboy41]

I think one thing to remember with the All B10 talk and number of minutes stuff is that this team still isn't overly talented. Lets be honest here
RSIII
Royce White
Rodney Williams
Colt -45 (maybe)
Joseph
Cobbs (maybe)

Those are the only guys on the team that were fairly highly recruited. Everyone else is just giving a ton of effort out there. I did have issues with the substitution patterns last year as our offense struggled to find any rhythm and Tubby tended to yank guys when they were the only ones making things happen offensively. Plus his lineups often baffled me. However he's the pro and gets paid the big money. Still I think at times Tubby operates like a HS coach or a guy with a deep (and talented roster) by pulling anyone that makes mental errors or gives less than maximum effort and is willing to play less talented guys to prove his point which is why we'd see lineups with Hoff, JAS, and Busch at the 2-4 spots even when Busch was giving up 5 inches and we couldn't generate offense.

 

[underground629]

I never said they had the most physically demanding style of play, but everything that I said is true. Tubby doesn't just take players off as soon as they make a mistake in order to punish them. He subs for all of the reasons I already stated (plus more I'm sure), and if a player isn't playing well, why wouldn't he play someone else? Our team has depth, so why leave a player on struggling if someone else can jump in and then he can see if we do better with him in. Sometimes he subs a player to coach them too.

Players were pulled because they made a mistake? How do you know exactly how often that was the case? It's not necessarily that they just mess up something. By mistake, it could mean that they're just not doing what they were told to do, they're shooting too much, they aren't playing D with enough intensity, it could be a million reasons, and you wouldn't know. It could even be that they are making mistakes because they're fatigued. It's not like he always pulls someone any time they make a mistake.

What does Missouri have to do with anything? Different coach, different players, different opponents. Not sure what the connection is there. Basketball rotations aren't like some set thing where you always play certain players a certain number of minutes. What is a "real rotation" anyway? Why would you always play the same rotation with a team that didn't have any very consistent players other than DJ? Not to mention that certain players match up better against certain teams, and he puts whoever is playing the best at the time. I'm going to guess that Tubby has a better idea of how he should do his rotation than you do.

Both. The Gophers do not have the most physically demanding style of play, not even close. Players were pulled if they made a mistake, not because of fatigue. Missouri managed to have 5 players over 20 minutes per game. If they can manage a real rotation, so can Tubby.

 

[underground629]

Done what?... Maybe you quoted the wrong thing I guess. I guess you could argue that Rodney and Carter are similar. They both have tools to be good, but neither have really proven it in the Big Ten yet. Obviously Rodney hasn't had a chance, but he is similar to Carter in the sense that he has the tools to be good but it's hard to tell how good he will be.

Haven't I done that? I believe I have already cited many things that Carter did well last year.

It sounds like you're describing why guys like Rodney Williams are often overrated.

 

[From the Barn]

I never said they had the most physically demanding style of play, but everything that I said is true. Tubby doesn't just take players off as soon as they make a mistake in order to punish them. He subs for all of the reasons I already stated (plus more I'm sure), and if a player isn't playing well, why wouldn't he play someone else? Our team has depth, so why leave a player on struggling if someone else can jump in and then he can see if we do better with him in. Sometimes he subs a player to coach them too.

Players were pulled because they made a mistake? How do you know exactly how often that was the case? It's not necessarily that they just mess up something. By mistake, it could mean that they're just not doing what they were told to do, they're shooting too much, they aren't playing D with enough intensity, it could be a million reasons, and you wouldn't know. It could even be that they are making mistakes because they're fatigued. It's not like he always pulls someone any time they make a mistake.

What does Missouri have to do with anything? Different coach, different players, different opponents. Not sure what the connection is there. Basketball rotations aren't like some set thing where you always play certain players a certain number of minutes. What is a "real rotation" anyway? Why would you always play the same rotation with a team that didn't have any very consistent players other than DJ? Not to mention that certain players match up better against certain teams, and he puts whoever is playing the best at the time. I'm going to guess that Tubby has a better idea of how he should do his rotation than you do.

If you don't know see the pertinence of Missouri in a conversation about fatigue and basketball, then you are on your own. And Damian Johnson was hardly consistent.

 

[underground629]

To summarize, you think that Westbrook and DJ are "maxed out", meaning they won't be All Big Ten this year, and you say that we can't be a top 25 team without someone who is All Big Ten, yet we are ranked top 25 by every site, and we don't currently have an All Big Ten player returning, and if anyone does make All Big Ten, it will likely either be Westbrook and DJ.

In what way have I proved your point?

Let me clarify, his style of play for the Gophers with the rosters we've had. You can't really use those people as examples when we don't have players of that level of talent on our team. Obviously if we had any of those players on the Gophers he would play them longer and they would make All Big Ten.

His style didn't stop guys like Chuck Hayes, Kelenna Azubuike, Tayshaun Prince, Keith Bogans, Erik Daniels, etc. from making All SEC.