Carter Coughlin - Both sides of the story need to be heard

[Tlsbhansen]

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Sorry, not sure how to post the image, so here is a link to a tweet from Carter. Probably wont, but should make some think twice. I couldn't imagine if it was my son.

Sorry if this was already posted.

 

[Jaykay]

Good post, very well written. The boycott was still incredibly stupid.

 

[GophersInIowa]

If true, that is exactly what many have been talking about with these type of investigations. Now that player has been labeled as a rapist and may have not even been there or did anything wrong.

I can understand why the players reacted the way they did.

 

[gopherdudepart2]

Reusse said one of the 10 wasn't even in the building at anytime during the incident but connected by the facetime or Empire Facebook group. Sounds like that was the one that was facetiming his girlfriend.
He also said one of the suspended 10 was in the building but never in the apartment where the 09/02/16 incident occurred and did not witness what was going on. His only link was being connected to the text message group of the text's that were exchanged.

He also mentioned that two of the individuals suspended came to Djams apartment door, witnessed the large group hooting and hollering and those two left immediately because they thought that what was going on was crazy. So that is four of the 10 that were lumped together that have been branded rapist, and sexual assault supporters by the U, the EOAA report, and now apparently the U president and AD.
Claeys biggest offense is that he didn't suspend the players involved in the act all season, and that he didn't help control the message or support his superiors in the suspension process. The head coach could have done a lot more in his favor that could have prevented him from being fired. He had to walk a fine line, but he also had to be more outspoken against what happened. That and they risk losing the scholarship for the boycott announcement.
Claeys could have also prevented the boycott by saying he understood their stance but anyone that doesn't show up to practice is out for the bowl game. Not a fan of how the most recent suspensions for the bowl game were announced and handled. Again the head coach could have stepped up and said I want to be part of the announcement process, and how those suspensions were announced. He did not help handle the message at all.

 

[MNgradinWI]

I agree with everything he has said and it does sound like some of the players are getting the shaft. The problem is that they are also sticking up for some of them that did some very stupid things whether against the law or not.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

That's the statement that should have been released, not the one they read...

 

[MaxyJR1]

I still don't understand why Claeys didn't come down harder on some players.

The basic philosophy should have been. Coyle telling Claeys here are the suspensions, you can tighten them but you can't loosen.

These players and coaches feel the in season suspensions were enough discipline.


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[Keyser Söze]

Good post, very well written. The boycott was still incredibly stupid.

Easy to say from a fan's perspective. I wish it wouldn't have happened too, but if you were in their position, I bet you would be more angry and more likely to support the boycott.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I still don't understand why Claeys didn't come down harder on some players.

The basic philosophy should have been. Coyle telling Claeys here are the suspensions, you can tighten them but you can't loosen.

These players and coaches feel the in season suspensions were enough discipline.


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From Coyle's own description Coyle told Claeys what the decision was with the players ... so he was calling the shots.

 

[50PoundHead]

Easy to say from a fan's perspective. I wish it wouldn't have happened too, but if you were in their position, I bet you would be more angry and more likely to support the boycott.

I get that guys are pissed and all, but isn't that when cooler heads are supposed to prevail? Leidner was one of the captains along with Lynn, Travis, and Lingen. I can't believe they didn't think this through.

 

[bigticket1]

From Coyle's own description Coyle told Claeys what the decision was with the players ... so he was calling the shots.

If true, Coyle should held accountable, just as Claeys was.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Without the boycott, I am not sure this entire process would be getting the attention that it deserves. I think the players would have been kicked out of school (or suspended).

Personally, I think for the names and reputations of the accused, the boycott may have helped. Granted, a lot of people assume their guilty and want them kicked out (heck, some want them kicked out even if it was consensual). Those people would have assumed these guys were guilty regardless.

Now, I don't think their statement was perfect, but I think most of us reasonable adults knew what they were getting at. Carter's statement was better than Wolitarsky's, but I am not so sure that the boycott was a bad thing, in the interests of justice.

(It was certainly bad for Claeys).

 

[Jaykay]

Easy to say from a fan's perspective. I wish it wouldn't have happened too, but if you were in their position, I bet you would be more angry and more likely to support the boycott.

Boycotting suspensions of players involved in sexual assault before you have all the details is a terrible idea. I like to think I would know that if in their position.

 

[edma0012]

Give me a break!

https://mobile.twitter.com/Cmoe34/status/816712814312247297

Sorry, not sure how to post the image, so here is a link to a tweet from Carter. Probably wont, but should make some think twice. I couldn't imagine if it was my son.

Sorry if this was already posted.

What is this meathead posting this crap for- Innocent until proven guilty? In a court of law with criminal charges. That's the ONLY place that applies, and as we've seen twice now, the county attorney has declined to charge out the case, rightfully I might add, because the evidence we've all pretty much seen at this point (sans the video, which is probably the most important piece of evidence) does not come close to showing proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I would further argue that the preponderance standard available to the EOAA was also not met, you can't show something is more likely than not to have occurred if the party with the burden says "I don't know if they were there or not". Can't happen. The EOAA investigation was done poorly, didn't gather all the evidence and was run by non-lawyers, who were taking on, at best, a quasi legal function. Put differently, they did a really poor job oh not only investigating, but even understanding their own rules regarding burdens of proof.

The Administration, in particular President Kaler, have handled this entire affair, both from a public relations standpoint, but also from an organizational leadership standpoint about as poorly as possible. The timing has been poor, the process has been poor, the communication has been poor. For Kaler, I am not certain why this wasn't the last straw for some regents. He's been criticized nationally for bloated admin budgets, he let a Big Ten school operate without an AD for almost a year. Ect Ect.

Having said all of that-

What this player has posted is remarkably ignorant. I get it, he's a 19 year old kid, he's emotional, he's confused.

But it is absolutely possible to differentiate from what Djam and the train runners did with what the dude asleep in his bedroom did. The behavior and conduct of many players was atrocious. Some of it was worse than others, but many of them acted in a manner, especially in season, as a coaching staff, I would not tolerate.

Claeys should have kicked 2-4 of the players off the team. He could have given 2-3 of them some smaller suspension or probation. He tells the guys- "Sexual assault or not, we do NOT tolerate this kind of crap in this program. " (Total aside here- the players lack of self control off the field actually makes their lack of self control on the field make a lot more sense doesn't it?)
If Claeys does that in September, he's still your coach today. Those poor bastard kids that are getting lumped in with some far worse actors, their reputations are saved.

Claeys poor decisions directly led to some of his players getting screwed over.

So that leads me back to poor Carter. Some of his buddies unquestionable got the shaft in this deal, but instead of throwing the worse of the actors under the bus for their deplorable behavior, he now makes the same mistake that he is so upset at the EOAA and the U for making, which is to lump all the suspended players into the same box.

H

 

[bigticket1]

What is this meathead posting this crap for- Innocent until proven guilty? In a court of law with criminal charges. That's the ONLY place that applies, and as we've seen twice now, the county attorney has declined to charge out the case, rightfully I might add, because the evidence we've all pretty much seen at this point (sans the video, which is probably the most important piece of evidence) does not come close to showing proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I would further argue that the preponderance standard available to the EOAA was also not met, you can't show something is more likely than not to have occurred if the party with the burden says "I don't know if they were there or not". Can't happen. The EOAA investigation was done poorly, didn't gather all the evidence and was run by non-lawyers, who were taking on, at best, a quasi legal function. Put differently, they did a really poor job oh not only investigating, but even understanding their own rules regarding burdens of proof.

The Administration, in particular President Kaler, have handled this entire affair, both from a public relations standpoint, but also from an organizational leadership standpoint about as poorly as possible. The timing has been poor, the process has been poor, the communication has been poor. For Kaler, I am not certain why this wasn't the last straw for some regents. He's been criticized nationally for bloated admin budgets, he let a Big Ten school operate without an AD for almost a year. Ect Ect.

Having said all of that-

What this player has posted is remarkably ignorant. I get it, he's a 19 year old kid, he's emotional, he's confused.

But it is absolutely possible to differentiate from what Djam and the train runners did with what the dude asleep in his bedroom did. The behavior and conduct of many players was atrocious. Some of it was worse than others, but many of them acted in a manner, especially in season, as a coaching staff, I would not tolerate.

Claeys should have kicked 2-4 of the players off the team. He could have given 2-3 of them some smaller suspension or probation. He tells the guys- "Sexual assault or not, we do NOT tolerate this kind of crap in this program. " (Total aside here- the players lack of self control off the field actually makes their lack of self control on the field make a lot more sense doesn't it?)
If Claeys does that in September, he's still your coach today. Those poor bastard kids that are getting lumped in with some far worse actors, their reputations are saved.

Claeys poor decisions directly led to some of his players getting screwed over.

So that leads me back to poor Carter. Some of his buddies unquestionable got the shaft in this deal, but instead of throwing the worse of the actors under the bus for their deplorable behavior, he now makes the same mistake that he is so upset at the EOAA and the U for making, which is to lump all the suspended players into the same box.

H

Coyle was the person who received the police report last fall, so he knew all the details. Don't tell me he didn't sign off on the players becoming eligible again. And if he didn't, he should have summoned Claeys to his office and told him then " Here's what is going to happen."

 

[Winnipegopher]

I still don't understand why Claeys didn't come down harder on some players.

The basic philosophy should have been. Coyle telling Claeys here are the suspensions, you can tighten them but you can't loosen.

These players and coaches feel the in season suspensions were enough discipline.


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As did the AD and the president. All knew or should have known the EOAA report was coming.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

What is this meathead posting this crap for- Innocent until proven guilty? In a court of law with criminal charges. That's the ONLY place that applies, and as we've seen twice now, the county attorney has declined to charge out the case, rightfully I might add, because the evidence we've all pretty much seen at this point (sans the video, which is probably the most important piece of evidence) does not come close to showing proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I would further argue that the preponderance standard available to the EOAA was also not met, you can't show something is more likely than not to have occurred if the party with the burden says "I don't know if they were there or not". Can't happen. The EOAA investigation was done poorly, didn't gather all the evidence and was run by non-lawyers, who were taking on, at best, a quasi legal function. Put differently, they did a really poor job oh not only investigating, but even understanding their own rules regarding burdens of proof.

The Administration, in particular President Kaler, have handled this entire affair, both from a public relations standpoint, but also from an organizational leadership standpoint about as poorly as possible. The timing has been poor, the process has been poor, the communication has been poor. For Kaler, I am not certain why this wasn't the last straw for some regents. He's been criticized nationally for bloated admin budgets, he let a Big Ten school operate without an AD for almost a year. Ect Ect.

Having said all of that-

What this player has posted is remarkably ignorant. I get it, he's a 19 year old kid, he's emotional, he's confused.

But it is absolutely possible to differentiate from what Djam and the train runners did with what the dude asleep in his bedroom did. The behavior and conduct of many players was atrocious. Some of it was worse than others, but many of them acted in a manner, especially in season, as a coaching staff, I would not tolerate.

Claeys should have kicked 2-4 of the players off the team. He could have given 2-3 of them some smaller suspension or probation. He tells the guys- "Sexual assault or not, we do NOT tolerate this kind of crap in this program. " (Total aside here- the players lack of self control off the field actually makes their lack of self control on the field make a lot more sense doesn't it?)
If Claeys does that in September, he's still your coach today. Those poor bastard kids that are getting lumped in with some far worse actors, their reputations are saved.

Claeys poor decisions directly led to some of his players getting screwed over.

So that leads me back to poor Carter. Some of his buddies unquestionable got the shaft in this deal, but instead of throwing the worse of the actors under the bus for their deplorable behavior, he now makes the same mistake that he is so upset at the EOAA and the U for making, which is to lump all the suspended players into the same box.

H

Just a couple things:
(1) Do you really want an investigation into sexual assault to NOT be innocent until proven guilty? Do you think any other way makes any sense?

(2) They didn't charge the case because they did not feel like there was probable cause. The burden for charging/arresting is probable cause.

(3) EoAA is run by lawyers. Politically motivated zealots, but lawyers nonetheless. They knew what they were doing, it is their M.O. You're right though, they used the term "preponderance of the evidence" to give it a feel of a normal investigation without any of the other safeguards that burden usually allows. It was nonsense, but it wasn't naive nonsense. It was absolutely on purpose.

(4) The 19 year old didn't say they were all innocent because one of the guys was on FaceTime, he was saying that process should be fair. He used the kid on FaceTime (whose face has been plastered on every newspaper) as an example of the unfairness, not as proof they were all innocent.

(5) I'm beating a dead horse with this "sexual assault or not" - - God, I hope our new coach doesn't regulate consensual sexual activity. That is a really creepy world that progressives are trying to create.

 

[UST_Gopher]

Just a couple things:
(1) Do you really want an investigation into sexual assault to NOT be innocent until proven guilty? Do you think any other way makes any sense?

(2) They didn't charge the case because they did not feel like there was probable cause. The burden for charging/arresting is probable cause.

(3) EoAA is run by lawyers. Politically motivated zealots, but lawyers nonetheless. They knew what they were doing, it is their M.O. You're right though, they used the term "preponderance of the evidence" to give it a feel of a normal investigation without any of the other safeguards that burden usually allows. It was nonsense, but it wasn't naive nonsense. It was absolutely on purpose.

(4) The 19 year old didn't say they were all innocent because one of the guys was on FaceTime, he was saying that process should be fair. He used the kid on FaceTime (whose face has been plastered on every newspaper) as an example of the unfairness, not as proof they were all innocent.

(5) I'm beating a dead horse with this "sexual assault or not" - - God, I hope our new coach doesn't regulate consensual sexual activity. That is a really creepy world that progressives are trying to create.

Thanks for your voice during the past month. Always seem to be able to communicate nearly the same thoughts as I am thinking. Keep up the good work.

 

[STPGopher]

Coyle was the person who received the police report last fall, so he knew all the details. Don't tell me he didn't sign off on the players becoming eligible again. And if he didn't, he should have summoned Claeys to his office and told him then " Here's what is going to happen."

These points being raised have been my gripes all along. Little to nothing is new to either the president, or the AD.

 

[edma0012]

I guess I should clarify a few things-
If you only have probable cause you shouldn't charge the case- sure you could, and there are obviously cases where you would and do, but generally, especially in a case such as this where you have all the facts you'd need to make a charging decision, if you don't think you can win the case, you don't charge it.
Secondly, I should have said practicing attorneys and quasi judicial function. You make a very valid point that there are motivations behind the investigation(s) this office does. The Director lady was at Rider before they folded, so ten years ago? I hadn't seen where the other signatory to the investigation practiced before coming to U (she's only been a lawyer 3 years) I guess the point I was making was even if you take at face value the burden controlling their investigation, "I don't know if X was there or not" can't meet that burden. I think your point is a better one though.
the 19 year strongly suggested "what happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty". To me, in my experience, he doesn't think anything that happened was wrong.

Which leads me to the sex assault or not- I do think it matters.
Does the program want its players, during the season, getting drunk and carrying on at 3am (with or without a consensual train running). You've got to tell these kids to act smart. Be situationally aware. Don't put yourself in spots that can get out of hand, out of control or reasonably lead to sex assault allegations.

I think the admitted behavior of many of the players was unacceptable behavior. When you see it was maybe 5% of the team-at one event, you start to question if there is a cultural leadership gap. I expect my alma mater to have some standards of conduct for their players. Sex assault isn't where the line begins to be drawn for me (and many others) it starts before that.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I get that guys are pissed and all, but isn't that when cooler heads are supposed to prevail? Leidner was one of the captains along with Lynn, Travis, and Lingen. I can't believe they didn't think this through.

I haven't heard too many people mention what a very likely TERRIBLE position the boycott put some players on the team who maybe didn't agree with the players leading the boycott. There's no doubt there were players on the team who weren't 100% in favor of the boycott, thought the players in the wrong WERE wrong and should face the music on their own, etc. Upper classmen like Leidner and Wolitarsky, who had essentially finished their careers, put a lot of players who still have long careers ahead of them in a tough spot by essentially forcing them to join in.

Plenty of bad decisions all the way around on this one.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I guess I should clarify a few things-
If you only have probable cause you shouldn't charge the case- sure you could, and there are obviously cases where you would and do, but generally, especially in a case such as this where you have all the facts you'd need to make a charging decision, if you don't think you can win the case, you don't charge it.
Secondly, I should have said practicing attorneys and quasi judicial function. You make a very valid point that there are motivations behind the investigation(s) this office does. The Director lady was at Rider before they folded, so ten years ago? I hadn't seen where the other signatory to the investigation practiced before coming to U (she's only been a lawyer 3 years) I guess the point I was making was even if you take at face value the burden controlling their investigation, "I don't know if X was there or not" can't meet that burden. I think your point is a better one though.
the 19 year strongly suggested "what happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty". To me, in my experience, he doesn't think anything that happened was wrong.

Which leads me to the sex assault or not- I do think it matters.
Does the program want its players, during the season, getting drunk and carrying on at 3am (with or without a consensual train running). You've got to tell these kids to act smart. Be situationally aware. Don't put yourself in spots that can get out of hand, out of control or reasonably lead to sex assault allegations.

I think the admitted behavior of many of the players was unacceptable behavior. When you see it was maybe 5% of the team-at one event, you start to question if there is a cultural leadership gap. I expect my alma mater to have some standards of conduct for their players. Sex assault isn't where the line begins to be drawn for me (and many others) it starts before that.

Typically on sexual assault cases, they file charges if they have probable cause. It's really a function of gathering information. If I was a prosecutor and I thought something may have happened, an incredibly common practice is for me to have the people arrested (in this case the players), charge them, and see if they'll talk. The only way to get this from a he said/she said is to get one of the people to talk. That is simply the best way to get them to talk. If you want one of these players who "lied" (EoAA's words, not yours) for their teammates to come forward, charge them and see if they're willing to go to jail for their friends. It is really the most common way these types of cases are resolved (cases without strong physical evidence).

As far as Carter saying "what happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty", I did not draw the same inference (that he is asserting nothing happened). I think a 19 yr old kid who thought that would say something like "they're innocent, let them go!!". To me, he chose his words pretty well. What happened to a real investigation? He didn't rip on the girl, he didn't proclaim innocence, he simply asked for a fair shake. At least that's how I took it. We can agree to disagree on that point because we're both just reading into what someone else said.

As far as the sex stuff. . .again, we can agree to disagree. I don't want my football coach, school, athletic director, president to tell me what I should or shouldn't do in those areas. I think it's Unconstitutional (it is), but even more, I think it's Unamerican. As far as the drinking and being up until 3AM, I guess I don't see how that's a huge issue. I don't think any coach in the country gets fired for underage drinking and I don't think anyone gets kicked out of school for it. I don't think Claeys would have been fired for his players staying up late and partying. This is about he sexual assault allegations.

To your last point, the cultural gap. Yeah, I think there is one. To me, the better question is how much we want the gov't to regulate our interactions. I think the line HAS to be drawn at assault/consent. Anything else is fascism and impossibly difficult to regulate (even if it were Constitutional).

 

[Greenbayguy]

I agree with everything he has said and it does sound like some of the players are getting the shaft. The problem is that they are also sticking up for some of them that did some very stupid things whether against the law or not.

+1

 

[edma0012]

If you're talking laws, or even University policies, I am right there with you, but I am talking about a coach's rules, a teams rules. I have no problem with a team having rules I would not support in the real world. I want my coach to have total lock down control on his program. For me, that extends to and includes rules for player conduct outside of practice or the stadium. To me, this debacle showed me that Claeys either didn't prioritize that, or was leading in a wrong direction. I smells of no institutional control.

I'm fine with the coach/team if they kick off players that are just plain d ckheads. So maybe I am just too old school.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

If you're talking laws, or even University policies, I am right there with you, but I am talking about a coach's rules, a teams rules. I have no problem with a team having rules I would not support in the real world. I want my coach to have total lock down control on his program. For me, that extends to and includes rules for player conduct outside of practice or the stadium. To me, this debacle showed me that Claeys either didn't prioritize that, or was leading in a wrong direction. I smells of no institutional control.

I'm fine with the coach/team if they kick off players that are just plain d ckheads. So maybe I am just too old school.

I hear what you're saying. Like, I wouldn't want my son lining up to do this. I also would hope upperclassmen would pull these guys aside and say "hey, this is a bad situation" (even if it was consensual). Like, I get what you're saying from a personal standpoint.

I'm going to avoid the Constitutional argument, but please keep in mind that team rules also cannot violate the Constitution. It rarely would ever come up, but a team rule is a state regulation.

Constitutional arguments aside, I don't know if I would want my kid to play for a school that had rules about their sexual practices. It just comes off weird to me. If what happened was consensual (big if, but we are talking in hypotheticals), then these players didn't hurt anyone. They engaged in a sexual activity that I wouldn't enjoy. How do you write a rule that stops players from participating in this activity that doesn't seem weird and overbroad?

As to your last point, I agree with you. I have no problem with a player being kicked off the team for being a jerk. I have no problem with an employer firing someone for being a jerk. However, I do have a problem with a player being kicked off a team or an employee being fired for any kind of consensual sex.

I think you and I are just not going to see eye to eye on this, but I hear what you're saying. I just disagree.

 

[everybody knows my name]

Bob_Loblaw, I think a coach should have the authority to say to a team member, "Because of the high standard of conduct that I intend my team to uphold, if I find out that you've been lining up with ten of your friends to have intercourse with a drunk stranger at 3am, I'm going to kick you off of the team."

Please clarify for me - do you disagree that a coach should be able to do this?

 

[BarnBurner]

Thanks for your voice during the past month. Always seem to be able to communicate nearly the same thoughts as I am thinking. Keep up the good work.

Agreed same for me Bob.

 

[Zeppelin Gopher]

Just a couple things:
(1) Do you really want an investigation into sexual assault to NOT be innocent until proven guilty? Do you think any other way makes any sense?

(2) They didn't charge the case because they did not feel like there was probable cause. The burden for charging/arresting is probable cause.

(3) EoAA is run by lawyers. Politically motivated zealots, but lawyers nonetheless. They knew what they were doing, it is their M.O. You're right though, they used the term "preponderance of the evidence" to give it a feel of a normal investigation without any of the other safeguards that burden usually allows. It was nonsense, but it wasn't naive nonsense. It was absolutely on purpose.

(4) The 19 year old didn't say they were all innocent because one of the guys was on FaceTime, he was saying that process should be fair. He used the kid on FaceTime (whose face has been plastered on every newspaper) as an example of the unfairness, not as proof they were all innocent.

(5) I'm beating a dead horse with this "sexual assault or not" - - God, I hope our new coach doesn't regulate consensual sexual activity. That is a really creepy world that progressives are trying to create.

I've really enjoyed your posts as well, Bob. Thank you.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

If Claeys is being fired because some players didn't uphold the standards of the school and Claeys let them play and supported them, then why isn't Coyle and Kaler getting fired as well? All three had all the same information, all three had to sign off on the players being reinstated midseason and all three handled the second set of suspensions like idiots.

Claeys was scapegoated to appease the masses and it fit the narrative that Coyle wanted so he could get his guy without having to have some backbone and Kaler is just lucky since this kind of sex problem is happening a lot on his watch.

Coyle is a coward and Kaler is a dbag and I wouldn't work or play for either.

 

[Spoofin]

Thanks for your voice during the past month. Always seem to be able to communicate nearly the same thoughts as I am thinking. Keep up the good work.

Agreed. Bob has been great.

As for CC's post.... This is the exact situation many of us have been warning against to those that accept the EOAA report as fact. Everything that report *claims* needs to be looked into further before taking out the pitchforks.


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