Carson Shanks to Minnesota pretty much a done deal

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MadtownGopher said:
He hasn't even been the coach for a year yet. Give the guy some time. No one was going to take over the Minnesota job and get 4 and 5 star kids in the 13 and 14 class.
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Just like no one was going to take over the Minnesota job and get 4 and 5 star kids in the 07 and 08 class?

Also, your latter sentence goes directly against the GH conventional wisdom that was in place for months, and still is for some. People were legitimately debating how our coaching staff was going to deal with having Newton, Vaughn, and Whitehead all on the same roster.

I personally am realistic about Pitino and his coaching and recruiting. I want people to stop pretending that he ever was, will, or would be bringing elite recruiting classes to the Gophers.

Go4 said:
i did >> http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/bo...possibility-Carson-Shanks&p=823119#post823119 <<
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You did. Thank you. I am glad to see some reasonable posters still exist on the basketball board.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I personally am realistic about Pitino and his coaching and recruiting. I want people to stop pretending that he ever was, will, or would be bringing elite recruiting classes to the Gophers.
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So you are writing off our chances of getting Jarvis, Alex, and Amir? Interesting.
 

You can't build a 7' with lego's. If Shanks can contribute like EE in a year or two I will be happy.

I will with hold my judgement on Coach P's recruiting classes for another year or two. He hasn't brought in a ton of studs yet but we can't finish as a bridesmaid every time.

I was one to not bitch about Tubby's recruits but rather the lack of progression in their games. Tubby might not have played the AAU game but he had a very recognizable background and had a decent recruiter or two on staff. I also believe some of the defections from the program were not to transfer closer to home but rather a clashing or dislike of Tubby and some staff members. Which can sure trickle down the pipe line to potential recruits.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Why is no one taking Pitino to task considering that so many of the players brought in by him and his staff are former low major players and/or recruits?
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Deandre, Malik, and Joey are our 3rd, 4th, and 5 th leading scorers who are producing almost 30 ppg. Who else was Pitino going to be able to get on such short notice?
 


I think you would have a hard time finding people that were unhappy about Tubby's first couple recruiting classes.

But let's not pretend that being the head coach at one of the two or three most accomplished basketball schools for ten years prior to his tenure here didn't give him some immediate clout with some of the recruits. Let's just say that he had a slightly higher pedigree when he got here than our current coach.

As knee jerk and absurd as it was for many posters to try to split up playing time between Newton, Whitehead, and Vaughn....it is equally absurd to declare he will never bring in high level talent. He hasn't even coached a Big Ten game yet. We need to let this play out a little bit for me.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Just like no one was going to take over the Minnesota job and get 4 and 5 star kids in the 07 and 08 class?

Also, your latter sentence goes directly against the GH conventional wisdom that was in place for months, and still is for some. People were legitimately debating how our coaching staff was going to deal with having Newton, Vaughn, and Whitehead all on the same roster.

I personally am realistic about Pitino and his coaching and recruiting. I want people to stop pretending that he ever was, will, or would be bringing elite recruiting classes to the Gophers.



You did. Thank you. I am glad to see some reasonable posters still exist on the basketball board.
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I agree with you. People would be ripping Shanks if it was a Tubby recruit. I don't know anything about Shanks, but it doesn't look like a player I'd be interested in on paper.

I never thought Pitino would get big time recruits this season, so I'm not underwhelmed with who has signed so far. But I will be very underwhelmed if this is the type of class that he will typically sign.
 

The other thing about Tubby's first couple of classes is that the player did not develop, or at least as much as you'd expect. Under Pitino we've already seen a number of players improve, most notably Austin and Oto.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
I agree with you. People would be ripping Shanks if it was a Tubby recruit. I don't know anything about Shanks, but it doesn't look like a player I'd be interested in on paper.

I never thought Pitino would get big time recruits this season, so I'm not underwhelmed with who has signed so far. But I will be very underwhelmed if this is the type of class that he will typically sign.
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I know you think Joey King is the worst PF in the country, but he has actually been a pleasant surprise. If it weren't for him, I'd be questioning this move much, much more. I was a pretty big skeptic of the King signing at the time, but I've come around on him in a big way. Pitino seems to have a decent eye for under the radar talent.
 



MadtownGopher said:
So you are writing off our chances of getting Jarvis, Alex, and Amir? Interesting.
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Nope. Illikainen and Johnson are both top-50/75ish recruits. Coffey is top 15-20ish and is the only one who could even charitably be called "elite". They are also all in-state recruits. The master recruiter is supposed to be getting us 5-star recruits out of NYC.

DeathClutch said:
Deandre, Malik, and Joey are our 3rd, 4th, and 5 th leading scorers who are producing almost 30 ppg. Who else was Pitino going to be able to get on such short notice?
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Somebody has to play the minutes and score. Again, I'm not talking about Deandre as he was never a low major recruit or player. Pay attention. I'm willing to mostly give him a pass for 2013, but look at 2014. It's very underwhelming for the alleged master recruiter.
 

MadtownGopher said:
I know you think Joey King is the worst PF in the country, but he has actually been a pleasant surprise. If it weren't for him, I'd be questioning this move much, much more. But Pitino seems to have a decent eye for under the radar talent.
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Joey King isn't the worst. Pitino had to bring him in because he needed a body due to Tubby's poor recruiting. I don't have a problem with King being on the team. But let's not pretend he's anything other than a backup PF on a team with tournament aspirations.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Nope. Illikainen and Johnson are both top-50/75ish recruits. Coffey is top 15-20ish and is the only one who could even charitably be called "elite". They are also all in-state recruits. The master recruiter is supposed to be getting us 5-star recruits out of NYC.
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So 4 star players aren't "elite." What does it matter if they are from Minnesota? So if Tyus would have ended up at the U, you wouldn't have given Pitino credit for recruiting "elite" talent?
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
Joey King isn't the worst. Pitino had to bring him in because he needed a body due to Tubby's poor recruiting. I don't have a problem with King being on the team. But let's not pretend he's anything other than a backup PF on a team with tournament aspirations.
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*As a true sophomore.
 



golfing18now said:
it is equally absurd to declare he will never bring in high level talent
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No one said that. I fully expect him to bring in the occasional high-level player, just as Tubby did. He will never sign a class full of top 50 4- and 5-star recruits like people were predicting - at least not at Minnesota.

MadtownGopher said:
The other thing about Tubby's first couple of classes is that the player did not develop, or at least as much as you'd expect. Under Pitino we've already seen a number of players improve, most notably Austin and Oto.
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This is an entirely different argument from recruiting.
 


dpodoll68 said:
No one said that. I fully expect him to bring in the occasional high-level player, just as Tubby did. He will never sign a class full of top 50 4- and 5-star recruits like people were predicting - at least not at Minnesota.
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Who said Pitino would sign classes of only top 50 players?

dpodoll68 said:
This is an entirely different argument from recruiting.
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Obviously...
 

dpodoll68 said:
Nope. Illikainen and Johnson are both top-50/75ish recruits. Coffey is top 15-20ish and is the only one who could even charitably be called "elite". They are also all in-state recruits. The master recruiter is supposed to be getting us 5-star recruits out of NYC.



Somebody has to play the minutes and score. Again, I'm not talking about Deandre as he was never a low major recruit or player. Pay attention. I'm willing to mostly give him a pass for 2013, but look at 2014. It's very underwhelming for the alleged master recruiter.
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You are claiming Richard is bringing in all these low-major recruits. Who from next years class is a low major recruit besides Carson? And FYI Deandre was a JUCO and a low major player before he came to Minnesota.
 

MadtownGopher said:
Who said Pitino would sign classes of only top 50 players?
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Again, are you serious? Were you sleepwalking when on the board from around May through September? The only question to be debated was how a lineup full of 5-stars was going to share the ball.
 

I don't really care who Pitino signs, I care if he wins. If he thinks Carson can help him win, welcome aboard! Thrilled to have him and hope he can continue to develop and be a great player for us. He is a freshman. 18 years old. To write him (or King for that matter) off now is a joke.

As a note, Tim Grover (MJ's trainer) offers a theory that you have to mentally handle players over 6'9" differently than others. As many grow up more mentally fragile from being gawked at for their height much of their entire lives.

As far as Tubby's recruiting - he did very well here with Royce, Rodney, and Trevor. Devoe, Ralph, Austin, Andre, etc. were all very well regarded recruits. Recruiting doesn't mean jack though if guys don't perform, they leave, or they don't play together. I always felt Tubby was a pretty solid recruiter here, retention was his problem. I thought Tubby was a far better recruiter than he was a coach at Minnesota.

Pitino has one job and one job only, just as Tubby did, to win. Now, better recruits typically means more wins, but it isn't a given.

Pitino is credited not only as a good recruiter, but a very good basketball coach. To overlook that quality in him is foolish. Whenever you read about him, people who know him talk first about his intelligence and ability to coach.

Just as I trusted Tubby to get the job done and supported Tubby, I feel the same way towards Pitino as he is the Gophers coach. Hope Carson flourishes here and we get a big win against Michigan tonight!
 

DeathClutch said:
You are claiming Richard is bringing in all these low-major recruits.
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Yes, because it's a factual claim. Low major players (Smith, King, Shanks(?)) and recruits (McNeil). Smith, McNeil, King, and now Shanks if the rumors hold true.

DeathClutch said:
Who from next years class is a low major recruit besides Carson?
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Did I say there were others?

DeathClutch said:
And FYI Deandre was a JUCO and a low major player before he came to Minnesota.
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I'm speaking of the recruiting cycle when Minnesota signed him. I thought that was understood. We won his signature over competing offers from Memphis, Ole Miss, UCLA, and Washington St. Again, for at least the 3rd time now, he's not part of this discussion. He is a player who was wanted by other AQ programs.
 

MadtownGopher said:
So 4 star players aren't "elite." What does it matter if they are from Minnesota? So if Tyus would have ended up at the U, you wouldn't have given Pitino credit for recruiting "elite" talent?
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Dpoll has a point. Elite by definition is the best of the best. That means top 5-10 range. Top 50 are merely very good, but I'd be fine with very good.
 

scher215 said:
Whenever you read about him, people who know him talk first about his intelligence and ability to coach.
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Not here. If people would accurately frame him as such here and not pretend that he is the master recruiter, I wouldn't have an issue. I have no issue with him bringing in players that he thinks can play and then winning with those players (obviously). But when that happens, again, stop pretending that his strength is his elite recruiting ability when he's given no evidence of such and has actually given evidence of his Xs and Os and ability to motivate.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Again, are you serious? Were you sleepwalking when on the board from around May through September? The only question to be debated was how a lineup full of 5-stars was going to share the ball.
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It was a pipedream, but fun to imagine. What do you expect fans to do? No one, I repeat no one, said Pitino would sign classes completely made up of 4 and 5 star players.
 

scher215 said:
I don't really care who Pitino signs, I care if he wins. If he thinks Carson can help him win, welcome aboard! Thrilled to have him and hope he can continue to develop and be a great player for us. He is a freshman. 18 years old. To write him (or King for that matter) off now is a joke.

As a note, Tim Grover (MJ's trainer) offers a theory that you have to mentally handle players over 6'9" differently than others. As many grow up more mentally fragile from being gawked at for their height much of their entire lives.

As far as Tubby's recruiting - he did very well here with Royce, Rodney, and Trevor. Devoe, Ralph, Austin, Andre, etc. were all very well regarded recruits. Recruiting doesn't mean jack though if guys don't perform, they leave, or they don't play together. I always felt Tubby was a pretty solid recruiter here, retention was his problem. I thought Tubby was a far better recruiter than he was a coach at Minnesota.

Pitino has one job and one job only, just as Tubby did, to win. Now, better recruits typically means more wins, but it isn't a given.

Pitino is credited not only as a good recruiter, but a very good basketball coach. To overlook that quality in him is foolish. Whenever you read about him, people who know him talk first about his intelligence and ability to coach.

Just as I trusted Tubby to get the job done and supported Tubby, I feel the same way towards Pitino as he is the Gophers coach. Hope Carson flourishes here and we get a big win against Michigan tonight!
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Great post.
 

MadtownGopher said:
It was a pipedream, but fun to imagine. What do you expect fans to do? No one, I repeat no one, said Pitino would sign classes completely made up of 4 and 5 star players.
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I think it was both. Some people honestly thought we'd sign a Calipari type of class. Others were wishfully thinking.

To date, Pitino has yet to show he is a great recruiter. His ability to recruit is a legitimate question that is yet to be answered.

His Xs and Os seem to be very good, his ability to motivate through means other than negative reinforcement are good, and players have gotten better since last season, which was Tubby's worst quality.

I frankly love that we are now able to inbound the basketball with ease. We don't have to throw it in the backcourt anymore or stress about it at all. That's a pretty damning statement for the previous regime.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Not here. If people would accurately frame him as such here and not pretend that he is the master recruiter, I wouldn't have an issue. I have no issue with him bringing in players that he thinks can play and then winning with those players (obviously). But when that happens, again, stop pretending that his strength is his elite recruiting ability when he's given no evidence of such and has actually given evidence of his Xs and Os and ability to motivate.
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The Doll does not like Richard. Will not like Richard.

Cuz Tubby got a raw deal at MN, according to THE DOLL.
 

dpodoll68 said:
No one said that. I fully expect him to bring in the occasional high-level player, just as Tubby did. He will never sign a class full of top 50 4- and 5-star recruits like people were predicting - at least not at Minnesota.

Impossible to know at this point.

I think it is fair to compare the first recruiting class against Tubby's for the same time period and a reasonable person could argue that Tubby's was better. However, Pitino's first class (with very limited time) wasn't a swing and miss.

Dre Matthieu is exactly what this team lacked last year and is clearly one of the better point guards we have had in awhile here. A win.

Malik Smith was ideal in that in was very familiar with Pitino's system, is a very good shooter, and most importantly is only a one year scholarship player. A win.

Joey King has been up and down but is only a sophomore. I don't think anybody was jumping up and down when he signed, but it was clearly a position of need. Unknown.

McNeil hasn't contributed much but isn't the first freshman to be in that boat. (i.e. Charles Buggs in Tubby's last class). Unknown

Regarding the '14 class....who knows. Back to the same "on paper" conversation that has been very prevalent on this board all fall.
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scher215 said:
I don't really care who Pitino signs, I care if he wins. If he thinks Carson can help him win, welcome aboard! Thrilled to have him and hope he can continue to develop and be a great player for us. He is a freshman. 18 years old. To write him (or King for that matter) off now is a joke.

As a note, Tim Grover (MJ's trainer) offers a theory that you have to mentally handle players over 6'9" differently than others. As many grow up more mentally fragile from being gawked at for their height much of their entire lives.

As far as Tubby's recruiting - he did very well here with Royce, Rodney, and Trevor. Devoe, Ralph, Austin, Andre, etc. were all very well regarded recruits. Recruiting doesn't mean jack though if guys don't perform, they leave, or they don't play together. I always felt Tubby was a pretty solid recruiter here, retention was his problem. I thought Tubby was a far better recruiter than he was a coach at Minnesota.

Pitino has one job and one job only, just as Tubby did, to win. Now, better recruits typically means more wins, but it isn't a given.

Pitino is credited not only as a good recruiter, but a very good basketball coach. To overlook that quality in him is foolish. Whenever you read about him, people who know him talk first about his intelligence and ability to coach.

Just as I trusted Tubby to get the job done and supported Tubby, I feel the same way towards Pitino as he is the Gophers coach. Hope Carson flourishes here and we get a big win against Michigan tonight!
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Good words! I admit I've had a lot of the same thoughts as dpodoll68, but I can't cross the line. I support Coach P. 100%, just as I did Orlando.
 

BarnBurner said:
The Doll does not like Richard. Will not like Richard.

Cuz Tubby got a raw deal at MN, according to THE DOLL.
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Now, as Don Dpod can attest, I have jumped down his throat many times. I do it when I feel it is warranted, he will say it was never warranted.

With that being said, he does raise legitimate recruiting points, but it is way too early for anyone to say what kind of recruiter Pitino is. He has clearly not recruited at the level that some people thought he would, but most of those expectations were delusions.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Yes, because it's a factual claim. Low major players (Smith, King, Shanks(?)) and recruits (McNeil). Smith, McNeil, King, and now Shanks if the rumors hold true.



Did I say there were others?



I'm speaking of the recruiting cycle when Minnesota signed him. I thought that was understood. We won his signature over competing offers from Memphis, Ole Miss, UCLA, and Washington St. Again, for at least the 3rd time now, he's not part of this discussion. He is a player who was wanted by other AQ programs.
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Mcneil had offers from Oklahoma, VCU, Richmond, and Rutgers. He's hardly a low major recruit. If Malik opened up his recruiting after leaving FIU I'm willing to bet he would have recieved some offers from some solid basketball programs. So you are saying he is bringing in all these low major recruits, yet it basically boils down to King and Carson.
 

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