BTN Picks Gophers to Finish Last in Conference

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You have legitimate points, but honestly, the justification of his firing just depends on which criteria you select. I'll provide reasons for the other side of the argument.

- In 6 yrs, he went over .500 in conference 0 times. How many other BT teams haven't had a single winning season in the past 6 yrs?
- How many other BT teams have made as many negative headlines as us in the past 6 yrs?
- Does Tubby's coaching/recruiting honestly look like it's on an upward trajectory?
- Have you seen a more stubborn coach in terms of adapting to the current game and making in-game adjustments?
- Have you seen quite this high of a percentage of players leave a program to then thrive somewhere else? (I realize some of that has to do w/ competition, but that's certainly not the whole story)
- Do you hear other announcers question the in-game coaching of other coaches as much as they did for Tubby? (Substitutions, lack of offense/in-game adjustments/out-of-bounds plays w/ a purpose, failure to emphasize top players on offense, etc)
- Did Saul honestly deserve his job? Was his punishment harsh enough?
- Did Tubby's teams typically improve over the course of a season?
- Did it seem like the players liked Tubby as much as players like coaches on other teams? (I realize there's plenty of speculation in there but I think you know there's some truth to players not seeming to really enjoy playing for him)
- Did the boosters seem to be confident in the direction of the program under Tubby? I realize their assessment might not be fair, but to be honest, they need to be happy if we want a practice facility.
- Did it seem like TUbby still had the passion/commitment/preparation you'd want from your coach?
- Have you heard many other coaches throw their players under the bus as much as TUbby and take as little credit for losses?
- I'm guessing you'll say this is unfair, but did it seem like there was much optimism regarding the future of the program?
- Did we not get incredibly lucky on our draw for the tournament (best player gets hurt the game before)?

I could go on forever with this. Maybe not all of it is important, but can you honestly say most of these points aren't legit reasons to try going another direction? It's not like Tubby didn't get his chance. 6 yrs is plenty of time. Just because he ended on his best season doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be fired. I think you're focusing too much on how he ended. His body of work was far from impressive.
- Would you honestly rather...
1) pay Tubby a ridiculous salary to continue everything I discussed above, and most importantly, have a ceiling of being extremely mediocre?
or
2) try an up and coming coach (for a much lower price tag) who can inject some energy into the program? Would you honestly rather continue being mediocre or gamble on a high risk/reward coach?

dpodoll68 said:
I have challenged everyone on the board on multiple occasions to find a coach (who was clean) that was fired immediately after doing the following:

A) made the Tournament
B) won a game in the Tournament
C) had his best season at the school
D) had the school's best season in 23 years

You can no doubt find a handful who meet the criteria for A (Ben Howland being a recent example), but I doubt you'll find any for B-D. And Tubby met ALL FOUR. Since I've asked the question multiple times and gotten zero responses, I'm going to assume firing a coach immediately after achieving this level of success is unprecedented in the history of college basketball. Thus, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that his termination was "fair". Now, I understand that the world isn't "fair" and that things like this happen.

I also agree, understand, and accept that Teague was fully within his rights and his responsibilities to make the decision. What I do have a problem with is people pretending that Tubby was fired for some sort of god-awful performance, when in reality it was mostly a case of a new broom sweeping clean.

I also resent that some people can't believe or accept the fact that a person can feel that Tubby was treated unjustly and was disappointed at how things went down, while simultaneously still being excited for a new hire and fully in support of the selection.

When I counter the revisionist historians with the actual facts of Tubby's tenure, I get called a "Tubby apologist", often while being called stupid infantile nicknames. So be it. I'm not going to stop. The man committed the horrible crime of not living up to many's outsized expectations. Some talk about him like he banged their wife or killed their sister.
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dpodoll68 said:
I have challenged everyone on the board on multiple occasions to find a coach (who was clean) that was fired immediately after doing the following:

A) made the Tournament
B) won a game in the Tournament
C) had his best season at the school
D) had the school's best season in 23 years

You can no doubt find a handful who meet the criteria for A (Ben Howland being a recent example), but I doubt you'll find any for B-D. And Tubby met ALL FOUR. Since I've asked the question multiple times and gotten zero responses, I'm going to assume firing a coach immediately after achieving this level of success is unprecedented in the history of college basketball. Thus, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that his termination was "fair". Now, I understand that the world isn't "fair" and that things like this happen.

I also agree, understand, and accept that Teague was fully within his rights and his responsibilities to make the decision. What I do have a problem with is people pretending that Tubby was fired for some sort of god-awful performance, when in reality it was mostly a case of a new broom sweeping clean.

I also resent that some people can't believe or accept the fact that a person can feel that Tubby was treated unjustly and was disappointed at how things went down, while simultaneously still being excited for a new hire and fully in support of the selection.

When I counter the revisionist historians with the actual facts of Tubby's tenure, I get called a "Tubby apologist", often while being called stupid infantile nicknames. So be it. I'm not going to stop. The man committed the horrible crime of not living up to many's outsized expectations. Some talk about him like he banged their wife or killed their sister.
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Boo Hoo. I wish I would be so unjustly treated as to get 6 figures to leave a job.

6-12
6-12
8-10 Enough said.

Get over it or take advantage of the really nice rental properties in Lubbock.
 


Bad Gopher said:
I'll maintain my position that I'll be happy as a clam if we finish with more than 6 conference wins. That does fall somewhere in between those two disparate predictions.
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I would assume so. Certainly 6 conference wins keeps from having a chance to win the national title and probably puts us in 10th-ish place in the coference.
 


dpodoll68 said:
I have challenged everyone on the board on multiple occasions to find a coach (who was clean) that was fired immediately after doing the following:

A) made the Tournament
B) won a game in the Tournament
C) had his best season at the school
D) had the school's best season in 23 years

You can no doubt find a handful who meet the criteria for A (Ben Howland being a recent example), but I doubt you'll find any for B-D. And Tubby met ALL FOUR. Since I've asked the question multiple times and gotten zero responses, I'm going to assume firing a coach immediately after achieving this level of success is unprecedented in the history of college basketball. Thus, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that his termination was "fair". Now, I understand that the world isn't "fair" and that things like this happen.

I also agree, understand, and accept that Teague was fully within his rights and his responsibilities to make the decision. What I do have a problem with is people pretending that Tubby was fired for some sort of god-awful performance, when in reality it was mostly a case of a new broom sweeping clean.

I also resent that some people can't believe or accept the fact that a person can feel that Tubby was treated unjustly and was disappointed at how things went down, while simultaneously still being excited for a new hire and fully in support of the selection.

When I counter the revisionist historians with the actual facts of Tubby's tenure, I get called a "Tubby apologist", often while being called stupid infantile nicknames. So be it. I'm not going to stop. The man committed the horrible crime of not living up to many's outsized expectations. Some talk about him like he banged their wife or killed their sister.
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I do agree with your overall sentiment. For whatever reason, many Gopher fans value the Big 10 schedule more than the tournament and non conference. I have said multiple times I disagree with that.

However, I don't think Tubby got the shaft. He did get a 2.5 million buyout and a new job within days. I think Tubby's future was a very tough decision for Teague and I am only glad I wasn't the one who had to make it. I can see why he made the choice he did and don't see it as completely unjustified, but could also see him making the other decision. I do agree "cleaning house" was a factor too. Likely both personally and from a donor perspective.

All that said, I am ecstatic to have Pitino here and think Teague made an outstanding hire. I can't wait to support Rich and see what he can accomplish here!
 

dpodoll68 said:
They aren't "cherry-picked". They're the basic criteria for retention for every AQ head coach in the country.

1. Stay clean
2. Make the Tournament

Tubby did both, went more frequently in a 6-year period than any Gopher coach in history, and went further than any Gopher coach in 23 years.

The Big Ten finishes are a "nice to have", but if you're making the Tournament and advancing on an annual or near-annual basis, it's secondary. The most important thing is getting in and advancing. I guarantee you that Michigan fans don't give a sh1t that Michigan was the 5 seed in the BTT, like most posters here are so gd obsessed with the Gophers getting the 9th seed.
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Tubby was let go because his teams were the epitome of mediocre, and they accomplished nothing of note in 6 years. 6 years is plenty of time to prove yourself. He didn't do the job he was paid to do, which was build a highly competitive team. John Beilein started at Michigan at exactly the same time and under similar circumstances and has done far better than Tubby, it's not even close. You might think it's close, but it's not because winning Big Ten championships and being on the verge of winning them, and making an occasional deep tourney run is exactly what is expected of a well-paid coach at the Big Ten level.

Ultimately what did him in was this was the team he had no real excuses for - the one that should've been among the upper echelon of the Big Ten and made at least a S16 run - they fell far short of expectations. Yeah, many places let the coach string it out for another year so they don't fire the coach right after he makes the tourney, but let's be honest he was going to get the axe next year if he didn't show some progress and it would take a true homer to think the Gophers were going to be among the top-4 of the Big Ten next year or make the S16 under Tubby. The Gophers just decided to part ways a year ahead of schedule - next year was going to be a wasted year if it was under Tubby. I know Friend of Tubby was always talking about how the Gophers were going to make the S16 before each year or else it was a failure on Tubby's part, but that S16 run never happened. All Gopher fans really got was excuses and mediocrity. Bottom line is you're not being paid millions for mediocrity, every coach knows that.
 

OSUfan said:
Tubby was let go because his teams were the epitome of mediocre, and they accomplished nothing of note in 6 years. 6 years is plenty of time to prove yourself. He didn't do the job he was paid to do, which was build a highly competitive team. John Beilein started at Michigan at exactly the same time and under similar circumstances and has done far better than Tubby, it's not even close. You might think it's close, but it's not because winning Big Ten championships and being on the verge of winning them, and making an occasional deep tourney run is exactly what is expected of a well-paid coach at the Big Ten level.

Ultimately what did him in was this was the team he had no real excuses for - the one that should've been among the upper echelon of the Big Ten and made at least a S16 run - they fell far short of expectations. Yeah, many places let the coach string it out for another year so they don't fire the coach right after he makes the tourney, but let's be honest he was going to get the axe next year if he didn't show some progress and it would take a true homer to think the Gophers were going to be among the top-4 of the Big Ten next year or make the S16 under Tubby. The Gophers just decided to part ways a year ahead of schedule - next year was going to be a wasted year if it was under Tubby. I know Friend of Tubby was always talking about how the Gophers were going to make the S16 before each year or else it was a failure on Tubby's part, but that S16 run never happened. All Gopher fans really got was excuses and mediocrity. Bottom line is you're not being paid millions for mediocrity, every coach knows that.
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+1

Thank you. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that dpo argues against this logic. I'll never understand it.
 

march madness said:
I think Indiana will be in play for spots 4-7 with their graduation and nba losses. They remind me of how many on this board thought Ohio St. would be "way down" losing Sullinger and Buford and I pointed out how many 4 and 5 star guys they have on their roster. They will be talented but young for sure. And having a leader like Craft is huge. I am not sure what kind of leaders are left at Indiana. PG Ferrell, espn #3 pg of '12, sf Holloway #10 sf., Noah Vonleh #3pf 2013, T. Williams #10 sf, Fisher #7 center, Hanner M-P #15 sf '12. Plenty of talent here but little experience.
pg Ferrell
sg Abell
sf Sheehy
pf Vanleh
c Hanner M-P

Bench: F Hollowell, c Jurkin, wing Robinson, F Williams, c fisher
They could have a really deep team. Fisher may redshirt he need lots of weight.
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4-7 in the Big Ten? OK. 4-7 in the country? Not OK. I think there's a significant difference. Last year IU had a team that was great for 90% of the season but fizzled at the end. OSU in 2012 was legitimately one of the top 3 or 4 teams in college basketball. IU's performance at the end of the year was not that of one of the top 3-4 teams in the country, at that point they were more like a team somewhere in the 10-15 range. I wouldn't say the 2014 IU team compares to 2013 OSU from the standpoint that OSU had 3 starters returning, one of which was a go-to guy on O and the other a defensive standout - IU has only 1 starter returning and none of their returnees were standouts in any way. I don't think the pieces IU is building off of (with the newbies and sophomores such as Perea who didn't do much last year) are nearly as accomplished or solid to form a top-10 team around. IU fans should be happy if their team finishes in the top-25 next year, as that would be a good season for them after replacing four of their best players, four of the 6 or 7 that really mattered from this year.
 



dpodoll68 said:
I have challenged everyone on the board on multiple occasions to find a coach (who was clean) that was fired immediately after doing the following:

A) made the Tournament
B) won a game in the Tournament
C) had his best season at the school
D) had the school's best season in 23 years

You can no doubt find a handful who meet the criteria for A (Ben Howland being a recent example), but I doubt you'll find any for B-D. And Tubby met ALL FOUR. Since I've asked the question multiple times and gotten zero responses, I'm going to assume firing a coach immediately after achieving this level of success is unprecedented in the history of college basketball. Thus, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that his termination was "fair". Now, I understand that the world isn't "fair" and that things like this happen.

I also agree, understand, and accept that Teague was fully within his rights and his responsibilities to make the decision. What I do have a problem with is people pretending that Tubby was fired for some sort of god-awful performance, when in reality it was mostly a case of a new broom sweeping clean.

I also resent that some people can't believe or accept the fact that a person can feel that Tubby was treated unjustly and was disappointed at how things went down, while simultaneously still being excited for a new hire and fully in support of the selection.

When I counter the revisionist historians with the actual facts of Tubby's tenure, I get called a "Tubby apologist", often while being called stupid infantile nicknames. So be it. I'm not going to stop. The man committed the horrible crime of not living up to many's outsized expectations. Some talk about him like he banged their wife or killed their sister.
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With respect to your post, letter D specifically - I guess it depends what means the best season. I would think that one could argue that Monson's team that lost to (I think) Iowa St in the mid 2000's might have been considered a better season by some people, certainly in the regular season. Obvisouly if the only result that matters is NCAA wins then I am with you on all points.
 

dpodoll68 said:
They aren't "cherry-picked". They're the basic criteria for retention for every AQ head coach in the country.

1. Stay clean
2. Make the Tournament

Tubby did both, went more frequently in a 6-year period than any Gopher coach in history, and went further than any Gopher coach in 23 years.

The Big Ten finishes are a "nice to have", but if you're making the Tournament and advancing on an annual or near-annual basis, it's secondary. The most important thing is getting in and advancing. I guarantee you that Michigan fans don't give a sh1t that Michigan was the 5 seed in the BTT, like most posters here are so gd obsessed with the Gophers getting the 9th seed.
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Brewster was pretty high up on the list of Gopher football coaches in terms of percentage of seasons in bowl games (2/3 of complete seasons that he coached).
 

dpodoll68 said:
I guarantee you that Michigan fans don't give a sh1t that Michigan was the 5 seed in the BTT, like most posters here are so gd obsessed with the Gophers getting the 9th seed.
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Good point. If the Gophers advanced to the Final Four, most fans would not be obsessed about a 9th seed.
 

Maximus said:
Good point. If the Gophers advanced to the Final Four, most fans would not be obsessed about a 9th seed.
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Heck, I would have been less upset about the 9 seed if we could have made it to the second day of the BTT. I do agree with you Maximus, if we had been national runner up, I would have absolutely not cared about squandering our number 8 ranking.
 



dpodoll68 said:
They aren't "cherry-picked". They're the basic criteria for retention for every AQ head coach in the country.

1. Stay clean
2. Make the Tournament

Tubby did both, went more frequently in a 6-year period than any Gopher coach in history, and went further than any Gopher coach in 23 years.

The Big Ten finishes are a "nice to have", but if you're making the Tournament and advancing on an annual or near-annual basis, it's secondary. The most important thing is getting in and advancing. I guarantee you that Michigan fans don't give a sh1t that Michigan was the 5 seed in the BTT, like most posters here are so gd obsessed with the Gophers getting the 9th seed.
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I agree with this and was on the fence about Tubby's firing. I probably wouldn't have done it. However, there was certainly a sense that this was the peak. 8-10, a #11 seed, one NCAA win. Next year's team might have been able to duplicate it, but not much more. After that, who knows. but it didn't look promising for landing any of the Big 3. If this was the peak, then I'm OK that we moved on.

To put it another way, my standards are to duplicate Clem's tenure without cheating. There were a lot of comparisons between this year's team and the '89 team. The only difference is we didn't get Northwestern State in the 2nd round. However, I don't think anyone felt that was as good as it was going to get with Clem.
 

OSUfan said:
4-7 in the Big Ten? .
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I definitely meant finishing from 4th to 7th in the big ten. I was comparing how members on here look at who's returning to a team (which is most improtant), but they forget about what kind of 4-5 star recruits teams like Ohio St, and now Michigan, M st, and Indiana are brining in. Oh there will be a drop off for sure but it is much easier with super talented newcomers than the average 2-3 star guys. I agree that the top 25 would be a nice reach as well. If indiana finished 5th or 6th that would probably be in that ##22 -#30 range. That being said they return a talented pg, most important spot in college, and Sheehy would have started for 95% of the teams in college.
 




Dr.Don said:
BarnBoy needs some attention, that is my opinion.
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I don't think he bumped it for the Tubby pi$$ing match, but rather to highlight how THIS YEAR'S Gophers are exceeding expectations and it's pretty cool!
 

fryguy22 said:
I don't think he bumped it for the Tubby pi$$ing match, but rather to highlight how THIS YEAR'S Gophers are exceeding expectations and it's pretty cool!
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Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.
 

April

fryguy22 said:
I don't think he bumped it for the Tubby pi$$ing match, but rather to highlight how THIS YEAR'S Gophers are exceeding expectations and it's pretty cool!
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The Gopher's roster in April did not include Mathieu or Smith.
 

The Gophers and Buckeyes aside, most of his picks are looking pretty good. His pick of Indiana in 7th just ahead of Penn State doesn't look as bad now as people thought then.
 

SKOOKM said:
The Gophers and Buckeyes aside, most of his picks are looking pretty good. His pick of Indiana in 7th just ahead of Penn State doesn't look as bad now as people thought then.
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I don't give a damn about his other pics. Most thought that the Gophers finishing last in the conference was a joke.
 

Joke

stocker08 said:
I don't give a damn about his other pics. Most thought that the Gophers finishing last in the conference was a joke.
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One can argue the folly of making such a prediction in April, but at the time I did not think it was a joke. The roster at the time was quite limited. Even now, they are just 2 wins above the team in the basement.
 

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