Bob Stein says Kill rescued and righted a football program riddled with incompetence

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John Galt said:
We all wish that we had a good enough team to be up 14-0 after the 1st quarter and smash teams like those we've just played. The reality is, we aren't good enough to do that yet. Keep in mind, a mere 2 years ago we couldn't even beat teams like the ones we've just played. Not because we couldn't get up for the games, but because they were just as good as we were. This team is improving. Not as fast as we would like, but it is getting better.
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This.
 

John Galt said:
We all wish that we had a good enough team to be up 14-0 after the 1st quarter and smash teams like those we've just played.
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Just a quick sample of scores from last weekend after the 1st:

Oregon - 10, Tennessee - 7
Ohio St. - 24, Cal - 14
Stanford - 7, Army - 6
FSU - 3, Nevada - 0
Mich - 7, Akron - 3
Northwestern - 0, Western Michigan - 3

And those are only teams in the top 20.
 

A few of you need to abandon the message boards in favor of studying more football. "Stomp" teams from the start of game? I've seen countless games in which one team stomps around to start things off, but the worm soon turns and their opponent methodically wins the day. It's trite, but true: Football is a game that lasts 60 minutes and you must lead at the end in order to win. What I see now from Kill and Crew is what I saw from them when they came here with a pretty good NIU team. They are methodical, stick to a game plan and build momentum as the game unfolds, finishing stronger than they started. For those who remember, NIU not only beat us that day, they grew stronger as the game progressed and administered a physical beating as well. It impressed me enough that I asked
a friend why we could not find a coach who understood the game as well. Now he's here, in my opinion. However, If you don't like game planning and a methodical approach, you're bound to be ever frustrated because I think that Kill and his staff believe in it.
 

Unregistered User said:
Just a quick sample of scores from last weekend after the 1st:

Oregon - 10, Tennessee - 7
Ohio St. - 24, Cal - 14
Stanford - 7, Army - 6
FSU - 3, Nevada - 0
Mich - 7, Akron - 3
Northwestern - 0, Western Michigan - 3

And those are only teams in the top 20.
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:)

Like I said my friends and I might be unreasonable. However, four of the six teams you posted above scored more in 1 first quarter than we have in 3 first quarters. It would be nice to start one game off with a bang instead of a punt or turnover. Game opening field goal would be great! This weekend is going to be it too, I can feel it
 

Nate said:
:)

Like I said my friends and I might be unreasonable. However, four of the six teams you posted above scored more in 1 first quarter than we have in 3 first quarters. It would be nice to start one game off with a bang instead of a punt or turnover. Game opening field goal would be great! This weekend is going to be it too, I can feel it
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Improvement doesnt eliminate cause for concern. They still have a lot of digging to do to get out of the hole they were in when Kill started.
 


cjcarter8 said:
Improvement doesnt eliminate cause for concern. They still have a lot of digging to do to get out of the hole they were in when Kill started.
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the hole that they were able to win 8 big ten games in 3 years? Kills won 4 in 2.
Just wondering when we stop accepting mediocre outcomes?
 

edma0012 said:
the hole that they were able to win 8 big ten games in 3 years? Kills won 4 in 2.
Just wondering when we stop accepting mediocre outcomes?
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Kudos on the "we".

You can stop accepting mediocrity when Minnesota releases a depth chart that doesn't just list two seniors (Henry, FB/Engel, WR) among the entire two deep on offense and not a single senior listed in the two deep offensive line. K?

Wisconsin had eight seniors in the offense two deep last week. Michigan had eight seniors in the offense two deep last week.

Outscoring your three opponents 124-56, leading the Big Ten in fewest penalties (7 penalties - Penn State is 2nd with 14), scoring multiple TDs on defense/special teams, blocking two FG/XPts, fourth in the league in rushing, 3rd in scoring defense, more red zone TDs than any other BT team, having the BT sack leader. Mediocrity personified.
 

+
Golden Elephant said:
This is an interesting thread, and I appreciate the optimism of certain fans, but I've got to agree with the first part of edma0012's post, basically: How in Hades do we "know" that Kill is doing everything the right way, and building the foundations?

I would certainly like to believe that, but the only real data points I know that we have are: #1 wins, and much, much less #2 APR. The APR last year was impressive (995, IIRC, and a record score for us). The wins on the field have been roughly equivalent to Brewster so far.

Can anyone point to any other REAL data points and/or numbers and/or observations that actually SHOW that Kill is "building on concrete" as I believe he likes to say - or to use the analogy of the earlier poster, that he's repairing the foundation and getting rid of asbestos? I do think it's a positive that he has O & D schemes, that it seems like he recruits players to fit those schemes, and that his coaches stick around. But some programs have coaches shuffle in & out and do OK and others have little turnover and slide downhill.

Finally, why must everyone rip on Brewster and proclaim that he was the worst coach ever and a snake-oil salesman? I, too, was ultimately disappointed by him, but he did the best he could and his 2nd & 3rd seasons were competitive. Enough already!
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2012 Recruits - 2.7 average star rating per rivals
2013 Recruits - 2.74 average star rating per rivals
2014 Recruits - 3.00 average star rating per rivals thus far

I will resubmit a post I made on Coach Kill on 10-12-2011 after he stated he needed 4 of his own recruiting classes to get things turned around.

I need to preface this by saying that I am under no delusion that, by any means, we resemble a "good" football team and that I have debated as to whether or not to even post the following observation..................

A few years ago, I read a book entitled "Good to Great", written by Jim Collins. In essence, it is a business-model book on leadership and factors that separate companies who moved from being a Good Company to a Great One.

I have noticed in following pressers, actions, etc. of Coach Kill, that I he seems to incorporate some of its strategies / characteristics. Among them are:

1) First Who… Then What - "Getting the Right People On The Bus"
Collins says, “People are not your most important asset. The right people are (his staff and players).” He uses the analogy of a bus driver while describing how to create a winning team within your organization. He recommends that you first get the right people on the bus, and then you get the wrong people off the bus (the hand he was dealt), then the right people in the right seats, and then figure out where you want to drive that bus. Hire people with characteristics you cannot easily instill. Focus on who you are paying, not how. He also recommends analyzing someone’s character, work ethic, intelligence, and dedication to their values before deeply analyzing credentials and practical skills.

2) Confront the Brutal Facts - tough to do when people are beyond starvation for a consistent winner
Collins found that companies that made the leap from good to great, had a consistent belief in their ability to succeed in the end. I have yet to see Coach Kill deviate from his belief system when it comes to the process he puts in place.

3) A Culture of Discipline - sound familiar?
Hire (in this case, recruit) people who are disciplined in their own right. Ever listen to the players address him after he speaks? "Yes sir. No sir." How about the Gopherhole Q & A's by many he recruits? Many respond "Yes sir. No sir" to the questions. The second you need to manage someone, you have made a hiring (recruiting) mistake. Manage systems, not people.

Collins contends that “Good to Great” transformations never happen all at once. They are the result of years of persistence. Kill publically stated he needed 4 of his own classes. It might look dramatic and revolutionary from the outside, but on the inside it is more of an organic development process something none of us can see.

Other observations:

1) Improving academic accountability,
2) Laying out a detailed plan to the University President,
3) Support of the MSHS Coaches' Association,
4) He has, as Sports Psychologists call it, "Framed his Philosophy / Seasons" with the Brick by Brick motto, and
5) Experience in doing said task.

Ski - U - Mah!

Buck
 

Golden Elephant said:
This is an interesting thread, and I appreciate the optimism of certain fans, but I've got to agree with the first part of edma0012's post, basically: How in Hades do we "know" that Kill is doing everything the right way, and building the foundations?

I would certainly like to believe that, but the only real data points I know that we have are: #1 wins, and much, much less #2 APR. The APR last year was impressive (995, IIRC, and a record score for us). The wins on the field have been roughly equivalent to Brewster so far.

Can anyone point to any other REAL data points and/or numbers and/or observations that actually SHOW that Kill is "building on concrete" as I believe he likes to say - or to use the analogy of the earlier poster, that he's repairing the foundation and getting rid of asbestos? I do think it's a positive that he has O & D schemes, that it seems like he recruits players to fit those schemes, and that his coaches stick around. But some programs have coaches shuffle in & out and do OK and others have little turnover and slide downhill.

Finally, why must everyone rip on Brewster and proclaim that he was the worst coach ever and a snake-oil salesman? I, too, was ultimately disappointed by him, but he did the best he could and his 2nd & 3rd seasons were competitive. Enough already!
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We don't know for sure. But it seems to me that he is. Obviously "seems" does not mean for sure. Some fans (including myself) like to believe things will get better and like to view things as "half glass full". For me, that is part of what being a fan is all about. Some will certainly disagree.

Some are more cautious. With our history, I certainly don't blame people. But from what I see, I like to think we're heading in the right direction. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Just like I don't think there is anything wrong with people being very cautious.
 



Maximus said:
Kudos on the "we".

You can stop accepting mediocrity when Minnesota releases a depth chart that doesn't just list two seniors (Henry, FB/Engel, WR) among the entire two deep on offense and not a single senior listed in the two deep offensive line. K?

Wisconsin had eight seniors in the offense two deep last week. Michigan had eight seniors in the offense two deep last week.

Outscoring your three opponents 124-56, leading the Big Ten in fewest penalties (7 penalties - Penn State is 2nd with 14), scoring multiple TDs on defense/special teams, blocking two FG/XPts, fourth in the league in rushing, 3rd in scoring defense, more red zone TDs than any other BT team, having the BT sack leader. Mediocrity personified.
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Well, if you are going to point to the scoreboard and stats from these first 3 games as evidence of the lack of mediocrity of Kill's teams, then its absolutely fair to look into those numbers a little bit. Specifically, who did they play?
3 teams not even in the top 100 rpi. One was an FCS school (their closest game somehow). We've actually been getting worse. Unlv was 101, we beat them by 28. Then New Mexico State, they are 154 and we beat them by only 23 and then W Illinois, number 184 we beat them by only 17. Now we are playing San Jose State. They are actually ranked above us. I hope we win so I can eat a little crow, but the numbers are alarming.

We have the second weakest schedule so far in the BIG behind Northwestern. They are 200 we are 189. I would hope we'd be leading in a bunch of meaningless categories you listed, given that we've played a bunch of cream puffs.

I am glad to see others with a more cautious approach to the Kill regime. Its just entirely too convenient to accept as gospel you need 5 years to get a true feel for where the program is going. 5 years in this business is too long.

I know we are all hoping he is the next Alvarez who won 0 in BIG first year then 2, 3 and in year four Rose Bowl. That could happen, I guess, but we need to see progression, not regression.

Kirk Ferentz won 0,3,4 BIG games in his first three years.
Pat Fitgerald won 2,3,5
Dantonio won 3,6,4

Kill is 2,2 and its not looking great this year I'm afraid. Why do I advocate caution? Because I want us to move more aggressively when (ok, IF) its clear Kill isn't the guy, since Maturi isn't making the hire, I have a lot more confidence we wont F it up this time.
 

Just to confirm, we are 3-0, right? Our 3 wins have been by 28, 23, and 17 points.

Imagine the vitriol on this board if we had actually lost one of these games or it was close at the end.
 

John Galt said:
Just to confirm, we are 3-0, right? Our 3 wins have been by 28, 23, and 17 points.

Imagine the vitriol on this board if we had actually lost one of these games or it was close at the end.
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What ever you do John, don't take the rose tinted glasses off. Objective analysis might hurt you.

How can you not be concerned that our margin of win decreased as the opponents we played got worse. We didn't cover the spread in the last game. A lot of warning signs, but they are just signs. A win this weekend would be very good sign-here's hoping!

Ski-u-mah!
 

edma0012 said:
We didn't cover the spread in the last game.
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Neither did Michigan. Neither did Northwestern. Neither did Penn State. Neither did Nebraska.

Win the game. Be better the next week.

edma0012 said:
How can you not be concerned that our margin of win decreased as the opponents we played got worse.
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From week 1 to week 3 Minnesota has lost its starting quarterback, its starting running back and its starting cornerback. As Coach Kill said on Tuesday and you can analyze objectively, Western Illinois' goal was to shorten the game...let the clock wind down to near zero before snapping the ball. Minnesota, as we've seen often under this coaching regime, made adjustments and dominated the second half.
 



edma0012 said:
Kirk Ferentz won 0,3,4 BIG games in his first three years.
Pat Fitgerald won 2,3,5
Dantonio won 3,6,4

Kill is 2,2 and its not looking great this year I'm afraid.
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I was kind of with you, and now you've totally lost me.

Honestly, I agree with those who are optimistic about Kill but believe it's time to see it in the (conference) win column. But, my god, "it's not looking great this year" already? After three games? All wins? Two of them pretty convincing, despite some flaws? You've lost all credibility.

Your response would be, "We haven't played anybody." I agree. So coming to negative conclusions at this point means you're going out of your way to look for the warts and nothing else.
 

Add covering the spread to the ways in which a coach is evaluated. Unbelievable.

Kill was 1-3 in year #1 in Non-Conference, they have now won 7 in a row.

Year #1 they lost their six conference game by an average of over 27 pts. per game.

Last year it was cut by nearly 9 pts. per game to under 19.

This year they have won going away in all three games. 1 over a team that beat them two years ago. 1 over a team that they beat by 3 in 3 OT's last year and W. Illinois a FCS team that we can wait and see how they do this year. (Remember this was the first 11am tilt of the season and they came out flat.)

We should all have a good idea of where this team is after the next two home games.

I love my Maroon and Gold glasses and always will.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Add covering the spread to the ways in which a coach is evaluated. Unbelievable.

Kill was 1-3 in year #1 in Non-Conference, they have now want 7 in a row.

Year #1 they lost their six conference game by an average of over 27 pts. per game.

Last year it was cut by nearly 9 pts. per game to under 19.

This year they have won going away in all three games. 1 over a team that beat them two years ago. 1 over a team that they beat by 3 in 3 OT's last year and W. Illinois a FCS team that we can wait and see how they do this year. (Remember this was the first 11am tilt of the season and they came out flat.)

We should all have a good idea of where this team is after the next two home games.

I love my Maroon and Gold glasses and always will.
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+1. To all of this.
 

EG#9 said:
Jury is still out on Kill's recruits obviously, but he has had his own misses from the JUCO ranks (Gillum, Moulton, Harris) and has a QB on scholarship who shouldn't be there.
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I might be wrong, but as I understand it, Kill basically held on to whomever he could in that first recruiting class. I think that would qualify and Harris as a guy that was previously targeted and we were "in" on. Those of you that know more, is that correct?

Except for the ones you mentioned, the only other Brewster Juco's that produced in bigger roles, IMO, were Eric Small and Jeff Wills (barely serviceable).

You could take the time to figure it out, but I'd be willing to guess Brewster was batting considerably less than 50% with Juco's.
 

What ever you do edma0012, keep your "going down the crapper..."

edma0012 said:
What ever you do John, don't take the rose tinted glasses off. Objective analysis might hurt you.

How can you not be concerned that our margin of win decreased as the opponents we played got worse. We didn't cover the spread in the last game. A lot of warning signs, but they are just signs. A win this weekend would be very good sign-here's hoping!

Ski-u-mah!
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glasses on.

How many wins in ooc did you predict for Coach Kill's Staff's 2013 Gopher Football Team's season? How many Conference games do you predict they will win in 2013? What earthly good does it do to be such a tapped out.... crapped out.... doomsday... sky is falling and the end of the world is drawing neigh kind of poster such as yourself edma0012? What the heck will you do IF Coach Kill's staff's Golden Gopher Football Team wins itself another bowl invitation in 2013? What will you do if they happen to win that bowl game?

I have been thinking that realistically the Team might win all of their ooc games and either two...or hopefully at least three Conference games. I would also be thinking that a bowl invitation should be possible again in 2013...AND...I am hoping for a win in a bowl game.

People like you, edma0012 will downplay ANY and EVERY win my Gopher Football team gets. And, you will try to gloat over any loss to such programs as Michigan, MSU, PSU, Nebraska, iowa, Northwestern, Indiana or wisky. Personally I say,: "if we make it this year...GREAT. If we don't make it this year, we don't make it this year and we go after 'em next year.

Nothing is the end of the world. And, if we have a surprisingly good year...won't that be great! But, even with a good year, we need to remember where we are coming from...need to stay very humble...and our coaches and players will need to work even harder in the future. It is a journey...it is a LONG-TERM process...and it always gives us a GREAT REASON to look forward to next year. And it gives us all the reasons we need to have the team line up and play again when ever they have the chance to play!

I've seen plenty of people exactly like you edma0012...and believe me, you don't show me much. People like you have been a dime a dozen around here for a very long time. Here is hoping for ANY win we can get...ANY way we can get it: ANY kind of win is a good win. Win this next game Gophers! Any way you can win it!
 

Just glad the U has a team

imthewalrus said:
glasses on.

How many wins in ooc did you predict for Coach Kill's Staff's 2013 Gopher Football Team's season? How many Conference games do you predict they will win in 2013? What earthly good does it do to be such a tapped out.... crapped out.... doomsday... sky is falling and the end of the world is drawing neigh kind of poster such as yourself edma0012? What the heck will you do IF Coach Kill's staff's Golden Gopher Football Team wins itself another bowl invitation in 2013? What will you do if they happen to win that bowl game?

I have been thinking that realistically the Team might win all of their ooc games and either two...or hopefully at least three Conference games. I would also be thinking that a bowl invitation should be possible again in 2013...AND...I am hoping for a win in a bowl game.

People like you, edma0012 will downplay ANY and EVERY win my Gopher Football team gets. And, you will try to gloat over any loss to such programs as Michigan, MSU, PSU, Nebraska, iowa, Northwestern, Indiana or wisky. Personally I say,: "if we make it this year...GREAT. If we don't make it this year, we don't make it this year and we go after 'em next year.

Nothing is the end of the world. And, if we have a surprisingly good year...won't that be great! But, even with a good year, we need to remember where we are coming from...need to stay very humble...and our coaches and players will need to work even harder in the future. It is a journey...it is a LONG-TERM process...and it always gives us a GREAT REASON to look forward to next year. And it gives us all the reasons we need to have the team line up and play again when ever they have the chance to play!

I've seen plenty of people exactly like you edma0012...and believe me, you don't show me much. People like you have been a dime a dozen around here for a very long time. Here is hoping for ANY win we can get...ANY way we can get it: ANY kind of win is a good win. Win this next game Gophers! Any way you can win it!
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There is a good chance they don't win another game this year. I hope that doesn't happen. But it would be nice to look at the schedule and see middle of the pack Big ten finish as a realistic goal.

Anyone on here the doesn't want to drive the kill bandwagon off a cliff is ridiculed. Sorry for being objective and calling a spade a spade.
 

Why do the excessively negative posters hide behind the skirt of "objectivity"? And they always over-use the rose colored glasses cliché too.
 






imthewalrus said:
glasses on.

How many wins in ooc did you predict for Coach Kill's Staff's 2013 Gopher Football Team's season? How many Conference games do you predict they will win in 2013? What earthly good does it do to be such a tapped out.... crapped out.... doomsday... sky is falling and the end of the world is drawing neigh kind of poster such as yourself edma0012? What the heck will you do IF Coach Kill's staff's Golden Gopher Football Team wins itself another bowl invitation in 2013? What will you do if they happen to win that bowl game?

I have been thinking that realistically the Team might win all of their ooc games and either two...or hopefully at least three Conference games. I would also be thinking that a bowl invitation should be possible again in 2013...AND...I am hoping for a win in a bowl game.

People like you, edma0012 will downplay ANY and EVERY win my Gopher Football team gets. And, you will try to gloat over any loss to such programs as Michigan, MSU, PSU, Nebraska, iowa, Northwestern, Indiana or wisky. Personally I say,: "if we make it this year...GREAT. If we don't make it this year, we don't make it this year and we go after 'em next year.

Nothing is the end of the world. And, if we have a surprisingly good year...won't that be great! But, even with a good year, we need to remember where we are coming from...need to stay very humble...and our coaches and players will need to work even harder in the future. It is a journey...it is a LONG-TERM process...and it always gives us a GREAT REASON to look forward to next year. And it gives us all the reasons we need to have the team line up and play again when ever they have the chance to play!

I've seen plenty of people exactly like you edma0012...and believe me, you don't show me much. People like you have been a dime a dozen around here for a very long time. Here is hoping for ANY win we can get...ANY way we can get it: ANY kind of win is a good win. Win this next game Gophers! Any way you can win it!
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imthewalrus,

1. I had fun watching the game on ESPN2. I trust you and the Loon had a good time in TCF Bank Stadium.

2. Looks like we beat the spread. Didn't it open at 5 and close at 4 just before kickoff?

3. Hammer Herkimer Hawkeye! Remember 22 November 2008. Remember Joel Maturi. I bet he was the one who was behind the "Fire Mason" chants.
 

Brewster inherited a bowl team and the best receiver in Gopher's history. Kill inherited?? A Wide Receiver for a QB?
 

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