Big Ten Basketball: Early grades for each teams 2023 offseason moves (14. Minnesota Golden Gophers – Grade: F)

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60's Guy said:
Ya, all these analysts who list him as one of the top transfers from a Big Ten team...what are they thinking? Why don't they agree with you?

The Gophers had trouble scoring as a team. Battle was the guy expected to score for them. He averaged 12.4 ppg. The other team's coach game planned to stop Battle first. They put their best perimeter defender on him. Our coach ran no actions to help Battle...to put him in a position through screens or movement to get him the open looks in spots on the floor where Battle was most effective. So Battle was taking random shots he couldn't make in an attempt to fulfill his responsibility of scoring for the team. That's what you saw.

Now, they will game plan for Christie or Mitchell or Carrington or somebody else...who ever our best perimeter scoring threat is gonna be? And that group will try to avg 12.4 plus Cooper's 9.8 with the other team's best defender game planned to take away whatever it is we do well.

If Steph Curry is on the floor does the defense play different? Are the Timberwolves more of a threat to the defense with Ant on the floor? Does the opponent have less to worry about when guys like that are not out there? That's who Battle was for the last place Gophers.

We get rid of Battle and Cooper hogging all the shots and we're gonna score now, boy! We'll move the ball side to side, make 7 passes without any dribbles, set up lob dunks, run back doors, isolate Payne in the post on the block with all our 3 point shooters....it's gonna be great!
We'll run pick and roll on top and put our shooters in the corners. Can't wait. Oh wait, we'll switch to showtime now and with our new guards we are going 7 seconds or less...we will fast break our opponents into submission and then we'll press. Maybe we are better...maybe we are not. But, losing Battle does not make us better.

Battle had a bad year. He is not a bad player.
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Defense is also part of the game. Battle wasn't good at it. I think we need to wait and see how the guys we have fit together on both ends of the floor. Watching how Hawkins plays- he would have helped Battle a lot on offense. Cooper couldn't beat his man on the drive- too slow. So he didn't draw the defense and everyone held to their man. Payne didn't get much help from the guards- let's see if he gets fed better this year. Will the guards help Garcia get better looks as well?

We have a different team. Let's see what happens.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So now we'll be better off when they double someone else like Garcia and we don't have Battle's scoring ability to help out when that happens?
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It's strange the amount of Gopher fans who defend the results of our head coach but sh!t on players who aren't perfect. Like Battle isn't a perfect player, but he's much closer to being a good Big 10 basketball player than we are to being a good Big 10 basketball program.

It reminds me a little of the reaction to Gabe leaving. There were people who thought it was good riddance because he wasn't the shooter he was his first couple of years. Gabe went on to bein a solid contributor for a much better program that the U. I'd be pretty surprised if Battle isn't a contributor for Ohio State, I'd also be pretty surprised if they weren't better than us.

Oh well, no loss, lets give the scholarship to Jackson Purcell or maybe find the worst player in Big Sky to take the scholarship.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
It's strange the amount of Gopher fans who defend the results of our head coach but sh!t on players who aren't perfect. Like Battle isn't a perfect player, but he's much closer to being a good Big 10 basketball player than we are to being a good Big 10 basketball program.

It reminds me a little of the reaction to Gabe leaving. There were people who thought it was good riddance because he wasn't the shooter he was his first couple of years. Gabe went on to bein a solid contributor for a much better program that the U. I'd be pretty surprised if Battle isn't a contributor for Ohio State, I'd also be pretty surprised if they weren't better than us.

Oh well, no loss, lets give the scholarship to Jackson Purcell or maybe find the worst player in Big Sky to take the scholarship.
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You can add Carr to that list as well. I'll be surprised if Battle isn't one of Ohio St's best players and they are a tournament team next season.
 



Rockraven said:
Of course we should have benched Garcia.
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C: Payne (25) / Garcia (10) / Thompson (5)
PF: Garcia (20) / Battle (15) / Olo-Joseph (5)

There, it took me 20 seconds to figure out a way to get one of our best players PT at his best position.

Can people now stop saying that it would have required benching Garcia? It's an idiotic argument.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
C: Payne (25) / Garcia (10) / Thompson (5)
PF: Garcia (20) / Battle (15) / Olo-Joseph (5)

There, it took me 20 seconds to figure out a way to get one of our best players PT at his best position.

Can people now stop saying that it would have required benching Garcia? It's an idiotic argument.
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Everything goes exactly to plan until the tip off. Ball parking all sorts of Gopher players and strategies is fun and usually done by the better fans. Although not usually in 20 seconds.
 

bga1 said:
Defense is also part of the game. Battle wasn't good at it. I think we need to wait and see how the guys we have fit together on both ends of the floor. Watching how Hawkins plays- he would have helped Battle a lot on offense. Cooper couldn't beat his man on the drive- too slow. So he didn't draw the defense and everyone held to their man. Payne didn't get much help from the guards- let's see if he gets fed better this year. Will the guards help Garcia get better looks as well?

We have a different team. Let's see what happens.
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I agree with all that. But you have coaches who are supposed to devise the fit...the strategy that the team executes. Not just leave it up to players to figure out.

Defense is coaching! 100% Nothing else. Build a culture, outwork your opponent with a scheme every player has bought in to. 5 guys guarding the ball.

Individual players have strengths and weaknesses. Devise your system to put them into positions to have success. You can have a good team defense with a bad defender fulfilling a responsibility...maybe Battle forces the other team's best shooter off of 3. That player is forced to put it on the floor and isn't good at that and turns it over. Turns it over because the other guys are prepared for penetration in their rotations. One scenario of many...team defense can still be great with guys who individually can't defend.

Offensively what you are describing is leaving it up to the strengths of the players. It shouldn't be random like noon hour basketball at the Y. We should of had a plan to utilize strengths last year and a different plan again this year to utilize different strengths...and maybe we will.

Leaving it up to: Every squirrel finds a nut. Is not good strategy.
Time will tell. There is hope....just not sure there are clues.
 

Rockraven said:
Everything goes exactly to plan until the tip off. Ball parking all sorts of Gopher players and strategies is fun and usually done by the better fans. Although not usually in 20 seconds.
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Good coaches find a way to not get lost in the game. It's difficult (no doubt), but if you are constantly abandoning your game plan because of getting lost in the game, it's a coaching failure.

This actually bothered me a bit in Battle's first game back when the coach said he was only going to play him like 20 minutes and then played him 40. It showed that he got lost in the moment. I think Ben does this quite a bit (it's something he'd probably admit he needs to improve). I actually think it's one of the things that can improve with experience.

We saw this same thing with Pitino with allocating minutes to certain players. He'd talk about getting Carr or someone more rest and then get lost in the game. I think it wore Carr out.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
Good coaches find a way to not get lost in the game. It's difficult (no doubt), but if you are constantly abandoning your game plan because of getting lost in the game, it's a coaching failure.

This actually bothered me a bit in Battle's first game back when the coach said he was only going to play him like 20 minutes and then played him 40. It showed that he got lost in the moment. I think Ben does this quite a bit (it's something he'd probably admit he needs to improve). I actually think it's one of the things that can improve with experience.

We saw this same thing with Pitino with allocating minutes to certain players. He'd talk about getting Carr or someone more rest and then get lost in the game. I think it wore Carr out.
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It can also be in game adjustments. The hot hand will get more minutes than planned, but you are correct CBJ needs a lot of improvement in this area in particular.

Just joking but I think we are pretty deep. At least 10. For fun substituting like hockey line changes would be entertaining. But would get technicals for not calling time out.

Relax people. Some of you are wound a bit too tight.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Good coaches find a way to not get lost in the game. It's difficult (no doubt), but if you are constantly abandoning your game plan because of getting lost in the game, it's a coaching failure.

This actually bothered me a bit in Battle's first game back when the coach said he was only going to play him like 20 minutes and then played him 40. It showed that he got lost in the moment. I think Ben does this quite a bit (it's something he'd probably admit he needs to improve). I actually think it's one of the things that can improve with experience.

We saw this same thing with Pitino with allocating minutes to certain players. He'd talk about getting Carr or someone more rest and then get lost in the game. I think it wore Carr out.
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Plan your work. Work your plan. It is why Richard never developed a bench. He had candidates who never got in the game or at the least were under utilized minutes wise. The whole team knows who the coach trusts by when they play and how often.
These guys talk...it wears on everybody including the guys who do play. Players want roles and if you define their roles they are cool with that. Just don't ignore people and don't not communicate to your players individually...especially when circumstances change their role...communicate it.
First step is defining roles.
 

I know this comes across as Mr. Grumpy, but years of reading these types of "early grades" articles leaves me to believe that most all of them are just wasting time and just filling content gaps. It is really difficult to get a handle on "new guys". I am specifically remembering some type of on-line national article on the Gophers like 20 years ago stating that JC transfer Vincent Grier would have "not much impact"!

I do think we will all have a better read on the Gophers team prospects after seeing Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Mitchell play 3-4 games......
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Good coaches find a way to not get lost in the game. It's difficult (no doubt), but if you are constantly abandoning your game plan because of getting lost in the game, it's a coaching failure.

This actually bothered me a bit in Battle's first game back when the coach said he was only going to play him like 20 minutes and then played him 40. It showed that he got lost in the moment. I think Ben does this quite a bit (it's something he'd probably admit he needs to improve). I actually think it's one of the things that can improve with experience.

We saw this same thing with Pitino with allocating minutes to certain players. He'd talk about getting Carr or someone more rest and then get lost in the game. I think it wore Carr out.
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We hired a rookie coach. Bad move. But Ben is a good guy and smart. I think he is learning and will continue to do so this year. His roster will be better, he will have more options and he is going to have learned from some errors last year.

His depth was horrid last year. He would have been able to sit Battle plenty if Ihnen and Fox were healthy- but that didn't happen. There was just no one other than Ramberg to play in place of Battle unless we went with Henley (who you didn't like at the time- because he was wild), Carrington (who got injured) and Cooper in a 3G lineup. I think I would have gone to Ramberg more than he did but still not a great option.
 



bga1 said:
We hired a rookie coach. Bad move. But Ben is a good guy and smart. I think he is learning and will continue to do so this year. His roster will be better, he will have more options and he is going to have learned from some errors last year.

His depth was horrid last year. He would have been able to sit Battle plenty if Ihnen and Fox were healthy- but that didn't happen. There was just no one other than Ramberg to play in place of Battle unless we went with Henley (who you didn't like at the time- because he was wild), Carrington (who got injured) and Cooper in a 3G lineup. I think I would have gone to Ramberg more than he did but still not a great option.
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Terrible roster construction has been solved. Some was a couple years in the making. We have a more balanced roster now.
 

60's Guy said:
I agree with all that. But you have coaches who are supposed to devise the fit...the strategy that the team executes. Not just leave it up to players to figure out.

Defense is coaching! 100% Nothing else.
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I disagree. If you don't have the speed, experience and strength, you have a ceiling defensively.
60's Guy said:
Build a culture, outwork your opponent with a scheme every player has bought in to. 5 guys guarding the ball.

Individual players have strengths and weaknesses. Devise your system to put them into positions to have success. You can have a good team defense with a bad defender fulfilling a responsibility...maybe Battle forces the other team's best shooter off of 3. That player is forced to put it on the floor and isn't good at that and turns it over. Turns it over because the other guys are prepared for penetration in their rotations. One scenario of many...team defense can still be great with guys who individually can't defend.
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Last year, Cooper couldn't stop his man, Battle couldn't and four guys who could were green and got lost at times. It got better late in the year.
Defense needs to be excellent this year. We have enough experience and better speed. Even Betts had a year to learn. The only contributor who will not have the experience is Christie.
60's Guy said:
Offensively what you are describing is leaving it up to the strengths of the players. It shouldn't be random like noon hour basketball at the Y. We should of had a plan to utilize strengths last year and a different plan again this year to utilize different strengths...and maybe we will.

Leaving it up to: Every squirrel finds a nut. Is not good strategy.
Time will tell. There is hope....just not sure there are clues.
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I think there are.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
C: Payne (25) / Garcia (10) / Thompson (5)
PF: Garcia (20) / Battle (15) / Olo-Joseph (5)

There, it took me 20 seconds to figure out a way to get one of our best players PT at his best position.

Can people now stop saying that it would have required benching Garcia? It's an idiotic argument.
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OK coach Bob, now do the rest of the roster- adding it up to 200 minutes. Make sure you have someone for the games when Carrington was injured.
 

bga1 said:
OK coach Bob, now do the rest of the roster- adding it up to 200 minutes. Make sure you have someone for the games when Carrington was injured.
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Unfair, bga. That is a no win proposition. There was no one to play the 3 or 2 and a very lackluster 1. We stunk it up.
 

bga1 said:
OK coach Bob, now do the rest of the roster- adding it up to 200 minutes. Make sure you have someone for the games when Carrington was injured.
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Yeah, we don't have any guards, I never said that wasn't the reason Ben misused Battle all season. I said it wasn't because of a choice between Garcia and Battle. It was because we chose to not recruit any guards.

The minutes are also pretty easy, when Carrington is out more minutes would go to Ramberg, Henley, Samuels, etc. But there were also injuries to Garcia during the season so Battle should have gotten 30-35 minutes at PF.

C: Payne (25) / Garcia (10) / Thompson (5)
PF: Garcia (20) / Battle (15) / Olo-Joseph (5)
SF: Battle (10) / Henley (10) / Olo-Joseph (10) / Ramberg (5)
SG: Carrington (25) / Henley (15)
PG: Cooper (30) / Samuels (10)
 

Rockraven said:
Unfair, bga. That is a no win proposition. There was no one to play the 3 or 2 and a very lackluster 1. We stunk it up.
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Not being able to play Battle at the 4 because of Garcia is not the same as not playing battle at the 4 because we didn't have any guards.

I agree, we had to misuse Battle because we didn't land any guards. It's part of the reason I was raising it as a major concern during last year's offseason.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Not being able to play Battle at the 4 because of Garcia is not the same as not playing battle at the 4 because we didn't have any guards.

I agree, we had to misuse Battle because we didn't land any guards. It's part of the reason I was raising it as a major concern during last year's offseason.
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Ben put together a poor roster last year. It can't happen again. I feel good about improvement this year. How much? I don't know.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, we don't have any guards, I never said that wasn't the reason Ben misused Battle all season. I said it wasn't because of a choice between Garcia and Battle. It was because we chose to not recruit any guards.

The minutes are also pretty easy, when Carrington is out more minutes would go to Ramberg, Henley, Samuels, etc. But there were also injuries to Garcia during the season so Battle should have gotten 30-35 minutes at PF.

C: Payne (25) / Garcia (10) / Thompson (5)
PF: Garcia (20) / Battle (15) / Olo-Joseph (5)
SF: Battle (10) / Henley (10) / Olo-Joseph (10) / Ramberg (5)
SG: Carrington (25) / Henley (15)
PG: Cooper (30) / Samuels (10)
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Sorry but I don’t think this is a bit better than what we had last year. We didn’t have a 3 and our guards were either below average or the unprepared and injured young. Luckily not our case this. All are vastly improved. Please we don’t ever move Garcia to the 5. Either he is the four or resting.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, we don't have any guards, I never said that wasn't the reason Ben misused Battle all season. I said it wasn't because of a choice between Garcia and Battle. It was because we chose to not recruit any guards.

The minutes are also pretty easy, when Carrington is out more minutes would go to Ramberg, Henley, Samuels, etc. But there were also injuries to Garcia during the season so Battle should have gotten 30-35 minutes at PF.

C: Payne (25) / Garcia (10) / Thompson (5)
PF: Garcia (20) / Battle (15) / Olo-Joseph (5)
SF: Battle (10) / Henley (10) / Olo-Joseph (10) / Ramberg (5)
SG: Carrington (25) / Henley (15)
PG: Cooper (30) / Samuels (10)
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Good effort. Really nothing worked until late in the season when Henley got better, Carrington returned and Payne started to get more involved in the low post. Results improved- still not enough but we got better.
 

Rockraven said:
Sorry but I don’t think this is a bit better than what we had last year. We didn’t have a 3 and our guards were either below average or the unprepared and injured young. Luckily not our case this. All are vastly improved. Please we don’t ever move Garcia to the 5. Either he is the four or resting.
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Yeah, Johnson's failure to recruit guards destroyed our roster.

We played Battle out of position last year because we did not recruit guards, it's not because of Garcia.
 

bga1 said:
Good effort. Really nothing worked until late in the season when Henley got better, Carrington returned and Payne started to get more involved in the low post. Results improved- still not enough but we got better.
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Progress toward the end. That progress needs another jump plus Betts, Christie, Hawkins, and Mitchell. That is a quantum leap. For you guys who graduated after 1990 that means a big leap. It will happen even if Ihnen isn’t getting time at the 2.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, Johnson's failure to recruit guards destroyed our roster.

We played Battle out of position last year because we did not recruit guards, it's not because of Garcia.
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He didn’t play the 4 because Garcia was way better. Way way better.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, Johnson's failure to recruit guards destroyed our roster.

We played Battle out of position last year because we did not recruit guards, it's not because of Garcia.
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Is your argument that Battle was better than Garcia?
 

Rockraven said:
He didn’t play the 4 because Garcia was way better. Way way better.
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Yep and there were plenty of minutes for both of them - as I've shown and you pivoted to the "but we didn't have guards" argument. Those arguments are NOT the same argument.

He could have easily played most of his minutes at his proper position if Ben recruited guards. It's a fact. You've admitted to it.
 




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