Big News!

It helps to actually know what you're talking about before making your argument. Little of what you said here is accurate.

I'd love for a dissection of the 'facts' from you cncmim. Enlighten us all.

Looking forward to hearing how the Freeh Report cherry picked information, and how the Paterno Family report assembled by their family attorney did not.
I've heard from you Joe-Bots before. There's something wrong with you if you can't understand how something like this was allowed to happen for a decade.
Paterno himself admitted that he "wished he'd done more" to stop Sandusky's predatory behavior. Wishing won't make it so, Joe. But having the guts to stand up and do something would have. As it stands, and in the end, Joe Paterno ended up being just another coward.
 

Did you stop liking Gopher basketball the day the academic scandal arose? Did you shut it off permanently? Didn't think so. It's really unfair to expect PSU students to stop being fans of their team, IMO. They've been through a lot, and the name of their school - through no fault of their own - has been dragged through the mud. They should celebrate good news.

Comparing the rape of children to an academic scandal? Wow. These aren't even remotely on the same level. You could have at least gone with Dom Jones as your example. Your query represents a new low. If this is the mentality, then there's simply no hope for you.
 

The celebration by the students last night is complicated at best, extremely problematic at worst, but I don't as a whole take much issue with it aside from the Paterno chants. I recognize that these are young kids who maybe don't comprehend the gravity of a man enabling a child rapist, but...actually, there's really no 'but'--they should really get it.
 

It impacts Gopher Football. It shows that some classic programs with terrible parts seem to get a nod and a wink while other schools given a punishment get to fill the dance card.

At least it is college football related.

Why is this on the Gopher board?
 

Good...now that this issue of off the table for the NCAA they can get to the task at hand of reviewing Jeff Jones' transcript.
 


MN Daily Column: NCAA shows cowardice in lifting sanctions.
Penn State deserves to serve a full sentence.

Penn State more than deserves to serve its full sentence, regardless of the fact that the current players and coaches had nothing to do with what happened.

The players had every right to transfer after the sanctions were levied, and recruits knew that a shot at the postseason was off the table if they went there.

I hold no sympathy for them.

Now the program — currently sitting at 2-0 — has a shot to go to a national championship. Isn’t it a happy coincidence that this news broke a few days after many media pundits said the Big Ten’s playoff chances were gone?

Forgive me for sounding like a merciless, cynical curmudgeon, but the punishment definitely fit the crime on this one, and the NCAA simply backed down.

I’m sure the NCAA thought it was being gracious when it decided to lift the sanctions.

But instead, they’re taking away part of the justice that Sandusky’s victims deserved.

http://www.mndaily.com/sports/footb...nctions?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Go Gophers!!
 

Good. They shouldn't have received any athletics sanctions in the first place.

This. This was a criminal matter. Laws were broken, not NCAA rules. Frankly, I thought taking away scholarships was so insignificant in relation to the crime as to be offensive to the victims.
 

This. This was a criminal matter. Laws were broken, not NCAA rules. Frankly, I thought taking away scholarships was so insignificant in relation to the crime as to be offensive to the victims.

I continue to disagree with this premise, and subscribe to the Christine Brennan (USA Today) position that the fact that the university didn't act or perform their due diligence on Sandusky's campus activities, and buried scandal(s), allowed PSU to maintain competitive advantage in recruiting over a decade, thus making it an NCAA matter.
 

I continue to disagree with this premise, and subscribe to the Christine Brennan (USA Today) position that the fact that the university didn't act or perform their due diligence on Sandusky's campus activities, and buried scandal(s), allowed PSU to maintain competitive advantage in recruiting over a decade, thus making it an NCAA matter.

It's not University compliance's job to determine the illegality of the actions of its employees. If James Franklin is speeding through campus, is PSU compliance supposed to investigate and give him a speeding ticket?
 



This. This was a criminal matter. Laws were broken, not NCAA rules. Frankly, I thought taking away scholarships was so insignificant in relation to the crime as to be offensive to the victims.

SMH. It has been said before in this thread, but bears repeating. The Penn State / Sandusky situation is the very definition of lack of institutional control. It is absolutely within the NCAA's jurisdiction. [In addition to criminal laws. NCAA and criminal punishment need not be mutually exclusive.] Indeed, there could hardly be a better case for inflicting the death penalty.

Penn State eagerly accepted and had a large hand in proposing the very harsh sanctions handed down (loss of wins, huge loss of scholarships, 4 year ban) in order to avoid the death penalty. It's very wrong and extraordinarily hypocritical for them to be lifted now.

Also SMH at the people saying "you shouldn't punish the kids, fans, etc that had nothing to do with it." Basically you're arguing for no NCAA punishment ever, as long as a school gets rid of the perpetrators once caught.

There are many sports issues in which I think reasonable difference of opinions on this board is fair and understandable, but this one just boils my blood when I read so many ignorant statements.
 



This is the right move by the NCAA, fixing what they screwed up in the first place. The NCAA had no business getting involved in this. Paterno is dead, Sandusky will die in prison, Schultz and Spannier will be in prison and/or never work again, and McQuery (sp?) will never work again. This never had anything to do with football or the football program. All the wrongdoers in this case have been punished by the law, end of story.

And look who benefits from this. All these players who either stuck with PSU or still decided to come to PSU during their darkest days. These are players and a coaching staff that had nothing to do with anything that went down. The fanbase doesn't deserve the punishment either. They never deserved any punishment whatsoever, and the NCAA owes PSU a big giant apology.
 



It's not University compliance's job to determine the illegality of the actions of its employees. If James Franklin is speeding through campus, is PSU compliance supposed to investigate and give him a speeding ticket?

It wasn't the original crime that caused the NCAA to penalize PSU. It was the cover-up to protect the PSU football program and Joe Paterno. If the PSU president, vice-president, and AD had reported what they knew to the proper authorities they would have been praised from coast to coast for their actions. They didn't do it and allowed Sandusky to continue to bring his young victims on campus to use the athletics facilities as well as bring them to PSU bowl games. The NCAA was well within it's authority to take the actions they did and PSU deserved every penalty they received.
 

It wasn't the original crime that caused the NCAA to penalize PSU. It was the cover-up to protect the PSU football program and Joe Paterno. If the PSU president, vice-president, and AD had reported what they knew to the proper authorities they would have been praised from coast to coast for their actions. They didn't do it and allowed Sandusky to continue to bring his young victims on campus to use the athletics facilities as well as bring them to PSU bowl games. The NCAA was well within it's authority to take the actions they did and PSU deserved every penalty they received.

So if the PSU President, Vice-President, and AD were at fault, why didn't the entire athletics department get sanctioned? Hell, why didn't the entire University get sanctioned? The NCAA should've kicked them out of the association!
 

SMH. It has been said before in this thread, but bears repeating. The Penn State / Sandusky situation is the very definition of lack of institutional control. It is absolutely within the NCAA's jurisdiction. [In addition to criminal laws. NCAA and criminal punishment need not be mutually exclusive.] Indeed, there could hardly be a better case for inflicting the death penalty.

That's simply incorrect. LOIC represents an aggregation of defined violations and serves to enhance punishment for those defined violations. LOIC itself is not a violation. Furthermore, LOIC was cited to exactly zero times by the NCAA in handing down punishment to PSU. The NCAA drew their supposed authority to issue punishment in this case from general principles about honesty and integrity in the NCAA constitution and bylaws - representing the first time in history they had done so (including the imposition of sanctions against Baylor basketball after the coach covered up the murder of one player by another. Baylor got dinged only for ncaa rules violations (and LOIC because so many rules were broken).
 

Also SMH at the people saying "you shouldn't punish the kids, fans, etc that had nothing to do with it." Basically you're arguing for no NCAA punishment ever, as long as a school gets rid of the perpetrators once caught.

There are many sports issues in which I think reasonable difference of opinions on this board is fair and understandable, but this one just boils my blood when I read so many ignorant statements.

I think you can support NCAA punishment while also believing that the current players and fans should not be punished. This wasn't some run of the mill academic cheating scandal or a tattoos for memorabilia scheme. This was possibly the most f'ed up thing to ever occur involving a college athletic department and obviously a unique situation. If the NCAA's goal was the change the University's and athletic department's mindset (which it was), why impose a penalty that also punishes people who were never involved. That goal could have been accomplished in some other way.
 

I'd love for a dissection of the 'facts' from you cncmim. Enlighten us all.

Looking forward to hearing how the Freeh Report cherry picked information, and how the Paterno Family report assembled by their family attorney did not.
I've heard from you Joe-Bots before. There's something wrong with you if you can't understand how something like this was allowed to happen for a decade.
Paterno himself admitted that he "wished he'd done more" to stop Sandusky's predatory behavior. Wishing won't make it so, Joe. But having the guts to stand up and do something would have. As it stands, and in the end, Joe Paterno ended up being just another coward.

Plenty of information that strongly disagrees with the major findings of the Freeh report is out there, if you care to read about it. Your context of Paterno's quote is very questionable as well. Many, like you, blindly assume he's suggesting his own guilt; rather, taken in context of his own arguments it suggests that, now knowing what he knows about Sandusky and the seriousness of the situation, in hindsight...he wishes he had done more such that Sandusky was found out sooner. Chances are very good that Paterno never really knew the seriousness of anything.

If you were more informed, you'd realize that Penn State was only one of dozens of institutions completely fooled by a person most associated with extremely good character (Sandusky). Penn State did much wrong by not pursuing the authorities. But neither did anyone else, given pieces of weird behavior of Sandusky (not the big picture). And the authorities, given the same information, took forever to act. Why is Penn State the only one to take a huge blow in the media and through sanctions (answers are simple: $$$,$$$,$$$ as far as lawsuits are concerned, prestige and a big news story as far as the media is concerned). There is a lot the uninformed public or mis-informed public doesn't understand about the situation. Let the story come out in the trials of the non-dead accused. That's what a person of rational mind would do. If a cover-up can be proven in the courts and the accused are jailed for their offenses, then you can all damn PSU to hell.
 

It's not University compliance's job to determine the illegality of the actions of its employees. If James Franklin is speeding through campus, is PSU compliance supposed to investigate and give him a speeding ticket?

If allowing student-athletes to speed thru campus is perceived as an illegal means to a competitive advantage, then yes (obviously a huge stretch, but its your ridiculous example). But they wouldn't issue a speeding ticket. They would punish the football program
 

Plenty of information that strongly disagrees with the major findings of the Freeh report is out there, if you care to read about it. Your context of Paterno's quote is very questionable as well. Many, like you, blindly assume he's suggesting his own guilt; rather, taken in context of his own arguments it suggests that, now knowing what he knows about Sandusky and the seriousness of the situation, in hindsight...he wishes he had done more such that Sandusky was found out sooner. Chances are very good that Paterno never really knew the seriousness of anything.

If you were more informed, you'd realize that Penn State was only one of dozens of institutions completely fooled by a person most associated with extremely good character (Sandusky). Penn State did much wrong by not pursuing the authorities. But neither did anyone else, given pieces of weird behavior of Sandusky (not the big picture). And the authorities, given the same information, took forever to act. Why is Penn State the only one to take a huge blow in the media and through sanctions (answers are simple: $$$,$$$,$$$ as far as lawsuits are concerned, prestige and a big news story as far as the media is concerned). There is a lot the uninformed public or mis-informed public doesn't understand about the situation. Let the story come out in the trials of the non-dead accused. That's what a person of rational mind would do. If a cover-up can be proven in the courts and the accused are jailed for their offenses, then you can all damn PSU to hell.

Strongly agree with this, but most people have made up their minds and there is not enough new information yet to make it worth arguing. Sandusky was quite the popular figure in State College, with politicians and powerful Board of Trustee members, who all wanted to be associated with him and his charity work. Joe Paterno was no saint, but he was a man of honor and integrity. As far as I'm concerned he was thrown under the bus by those with considerably less honor. Call me a JoeBot if you wish.
 

Penn State did much wrong by not pursuing the authorities. But neither did anyone else, given pieces of weird behavior of Sandusky (not the big picture). And the authorities, given the same information, took forever to act. Why is Penn State the only one to take a huge blow in the media and through sanctions (answers are simple: $$$,$$$,$$$ as far as lawsuits are concerned, prestige and a big news story as far as the media is concerned).

I love this interpretation. Penn State did much wrong, but so did others, so why oh why punish the university? Ask yourself who stood to benefit the most from keeping this scandal under wraps.

Instead of telling everyone who thinks PSU should have been punished they become 'more informed', I suggest you follow the Sandusky timeline, THEN revisit the Grand Jury testimony that's out there. Seems like you may have read everything BUT these items.
 

It’s simple to sit here now and condemn Paterno. We know the outcome. However, I don’t think we can conclude how he should have reacted to the McQueary report and damn him based on that evidence without considering the conflicting information that existed at the time.

More Specifically, I’m not sure everyone fully appreciates how important a role the first un-sustained 1998 investigation and subsequent lack of prosecution plays in how the McQueary report was handled.

It really ties up an employer's hands when the DA says, not only will we not prosecute, but the investigation is now closed. Four years later you have McQueary, whom we know didn't take it upon himself to intervene (although he was the only person aside form Sandusky that physically could have) suggesting he may have heard something damning, but only saw something vague.

Read the story again…. McQueary sounds like he doesn’t believe this himself and reluctantly reports. He is probably sheepish. Definitely doesn’t sound confident. He asked his dad and a psychiatrist, if he even should report it. He says he thinks he saw Sandusky’s hands on the kid. To highlight how confused and unsure McQueary actually was, note the victim, claims McQueary was wrong in his testimony of what happened.

Now you’re Paterno; you know Sandusky was accused of this in the past. You know the police and DA stopped investigating 4 years ago. You know they didn’t bring charges. You know what evidence they collected. You have an unsure kid (McQueary) whom reluctantly reports evidence that sounds wishy washy. You worked closely with this guy for 20+ years. You know his family. You eat, crap, and lose sleep, and share extreme stress with this guy. You don’t want to accuse an innocent man of child abuse twice.

Consider what you’d do in that situation: 1) do you believe the friend you worked tirelessly with for 20+ years, that insists he’s not a monster? whom is supported by DA and Police lack of past prosecution or 2) Do you jump in both feet and pile on internal investigations on someone whom you think was likely innocently accused of this in the past?

Paterno doesn’t want bull**** rumors staining the program he built for 50 years.

If cognitive dissonance exists, sure does rear its ugly head here.

Everyone and their brother cannot fathom themselves doing what Paterno did (or lack thereof). In reality, He elevated it to a higher level… i.e. he overcame cognitive dissonance, Something Sandusky’s wife didn’t even do. Something, sadly, I doubt most people would be capable of doing.

Consider the Janitor who saw and the superior he reported it to... Had they said anything and Penn State didn't act, well, then Penn State deserves what they get. Both men put it on one another to report, which neither guy did, And we are talking about a witness of actual abuse, not just physical contact.
 

Excerpt from Paterno's GJ testimony:

Q: Other than the incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?
Mr. Paterno: I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it.
You did mention — I think you said something about a rumor. It may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody.
I don’t know.
I don’t remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor.
Q: You indicated that your report was made directly to Tim Curley. Do you know of that report being made to anyone else that was a university official?
Mr. Paterno: No, because I figured that Tim would handle it appropriately.
I have a tremendous amount of confidence in Mr. Curley and I thought he would look into it and handle it appropriately.


Note that Paterno states that he no information about Sandusky being involved in any kind of similar behavior in the past - DESPITE the FACT that:

In 1998, University police investigate allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky. No criminal charges are pursued.
On June 1, 1998: University police interview Sandusky, who admits showering with Victim 6. A detective tells Sandusky never to shower with children again.


Then less than a year later, Sandusky 'retires', but with full athletic facilities access. Facinating, no?

These Joe Paterno's two GJ testimony responses indicate to me that either:
A) Paterno was a geriatric, senile, fool, who had no control of his football program nor knowledge of what his top assistant coaches were doing. And his later trust in Tim Curley was so horrifically misplaced, and his leadership skills so weak that after it was clear Curley was doing nothing, he didn't feel he could stand up and follow up on McQuery's info on his own, as a employee of Penn State.
-or-
B) Paterno is a bald faced liar, who knew Sandusky was involved in inappropriate behaviors, was a threat to the program, and coaxed him into retirement in 1999, but didn't have the courage to dismiss him from the university in full back in 1998.

I'd love to hear any one else's option C, D, E, etc.

I'm seriously getting ill reading some of the defense Paterno is getting in here. But maybe that's because I have 2 young sons, who are likely to be in a college setting like that some day if they go to a kids football camp. Maybe I'm just a hysterical parent here, blinded by my desire to keep my boys safe.
 

Excerpt from Paterno's GJ testimony:

Q: Other than the incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?
Mr. Paterno: I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it.
You did mention — I think you said something about a rumor. It may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody.
I don’t know.
I don’t remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor.
Q: You indicated that your report was made directly to Tim Curley. Do you know of that report being made to anyone else that was a university official?
Mr. Paterno: No, because I figured that Tim would handle it appropriately.
I have a tremendous amount of confidence in Mr. Curley and I thought he would look into it and handle it appropriately.


Note that Paterno states that he no information about Sandusky being involved in any kind of similar behavior in the past - DESPITE the FACT that:

In 1998, University police investigate allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky. No criminal charges are pursued.
On June 1, 1998: University police interview Sandusky, who admits showering with Victim 6. A detective tells Sandusky never to shower with children again.


Then less than a year later, Sandusky 'retires', but with full athletic facilities access. Facinating, no?

These Joe Paterno's two GJ testimony responses indicate to me that either:
A) Paterno was a geriatric, senile, fool, who had no control of his football program nor knowledge of what his top assistant coaches were doing. And his later trust in Tim Curley was so horrifically misplaced, and his leadership skills so weak that after it was clear Curley was doing nothing, he didn't feel he could stand up and follow up on McQuery's info on his own, as a employee of Penn State.
-or-
B) Paterno is a bald faced liar, who knew Sandusky was involved in inappropriate behaviors, was a threat to the program, and coaxed him into retirement in 1999, but didn't have the courage to dismiss him from the university in full back in 1998.

I'd love to hear any one else's option C, D, E, etc.

I'm seriously getting ill reading some of the defense Paterno is getting in here. But maybe that's because I have 2 young sons, who are likely to be in a college setting like that some day if they go to a kids football camp. Maybe I'm just a hysterical parent here, blinded by my desire to keep my boys safe.

I think everyone agrees with your being horrified. It is pretty damn horrific. Problem here is blame. It is easy to blame Paterno and Penn State. I did. Then the Freeh report came out and by off chance I read some it. Don't recall now specifics of why it was horrible, but I came away thinking it was a garbage, sloppy investigation. I reevaluated what I thought, and have yet to here actual evidence of Paterno's complicity/cover up. There some circumstantial stuff, but most is easily explained away when you consider how we treat our own best friends. I wouldn't believe you, the police, or most people if they made accusations like this against my best friend. I've known him for 30 years. I wouldn't expect Paterno to either.

Some very good points and need to be addressed; but it does require the assumption that Paterno attached the 98' investigation to the question as it was asked and that it was not addressed through his qualifier.

Note there is a 13 year gap in between the questioning on the grand jury and the 98 incident. Now in 02 there is a 4 year gap.

Personally, I get last year and four years ago still mixed up..... I couldn't tell you crap about what I know 13 year ago.

Moreover, this guys mind is blown at this time. Imagine how much shame and guilt he is feeling. He's not going to be in a clever lucid state giving grand jury testimony. His best friend turned out to be a monster and it'll destroy his life's work. Joe is likely thinking he should have done more. I think we all do that much.
 

I mean really, what do you want them to do? Should they all weep and thrash in the streets? Flog themselves daily in the bathtub? Maybe hold multiple charities to help the kids? Oh...wait...

Did you stop liking Gopher basketball the day the academic scandal arose? Did you shut it off permanently? Didn't think so. It's really unfair to expect PSU students to stop being fans of their team, IMO. They've been through a lot, and the name of their school - through no fault of their own - has been dragged through the mud. They should celebrate good news.

Did you actually read my post? No where did I say they should stop supporting their team. I don't remember people filling the streets right after Clem was let go. That is the point I was trying to make. Maybe you and others disagree, but when kids are raped under the nose of the head coach, and even if the coach didn't do anything wrong, because of the sensitivity of the situation, I'm not going to go protesting the coach being let go.

The perception has been that more people in the Penn St. community were pissed off about Paterno getting fired than kids getting raped. That's awesome that they have done a lot to help the victims. My opinion is that, in sensitive situations like that, you kinda hold back until it all plays out first. Otherwise it seemed like they cared about the coach more than the kids. Maybe that is a flawed way to look at it, but that is how I saw it. There's ways to support your school while showing respect for the victims. I don't think they always did that. Again, just my opinion.
 




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