Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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leib0039 said:
Juwan Howard is similar to Ewing. He and Ewing had very similar resumes, alum, long time nba player and asst coach. Again nothing against Ben, its just a fact he did not have the resume of these coaches.
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Howard is a closer comparison to Ewing for sure. Both were very good college and pro players and had NBA assistant experience. The points that Bad seems to be forgetting are that Ewing is in the HOF, is the best player in Georgetown history, is widely considered to be one of the best players in college and pro basketball history, won a national title at Georgetown...I could go on. This is entirely ignoring his 15-year stint as an assistant in the NBA. Meanwhile, Johnson was a mediocre college player on mostly poor teams (not even remotely good enough to play professionally overseas, much less the NBA), and has followed that by being a mediocre assistant on mostly poor teams. He has zero experience in the NBA as a player or coach. Ewing has 32 years playing and coaching at the highest level of the sport, only marginally less time than Johnson has been alive.

While not perfect, the closest analogue I could think of for the Gophers would be if we had hired McHale. While that likely would have ended up being a terrible hire, much like Ewing, it would have been lauded as a coup by alumni, media, etc. and would have had many here creaming their jeans at the prospect. The fact that anyone is trying to equate hiring Ben f'ing Johnson with hiring Patrick Ewing is mind-boggling to me - almost as mind-boggling as the hire of Johnson itself.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Howard is a closer comparison to Ewing for sure. Both were very good college and pro players and had NBA assistant experience. The points that Bad seems to be forgetting are that Ewing is in the HOF, is the best player in Georgetown history, is widely considered to be one of the best players in college and pro basketball history, won a national title at Georgetown...I could go on. This is entirely ignoring his 15-year stint as an assistant in the NBA. Meanwhile, Johnson was a mediocre college player on mostly poor teams (not even remotely good enough to play professionally overseas, much less the NBA), and has followed that by being a mediocre assistant on mostly poor teams. He has zero experience in the NBA as a player or coach. Ewing has 32 years playing and coaching at the highest level of the sport, only marginally less time than Johnson has been alive.

While not perfect, the closest analogue I could think of for the Gophers would be if we had hired McHale. While that likely would have ended up being a terrible hire, much like Ewing, it would have been lauded as a coup by alumni, media, etc. and would have had many here creaming their jeans at the prospect. The fact that anyone is trying to equate hiring Ben f'ing Johnson with hiring Patrick Ewing is mind-boggling to me - almost as mind-boggling as the hire of Johnson itself.
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So if I'm reading between the subtle lines appropriately, it sounds like you have a similar affinity for the Ben Johnson hire as you did for the Richard Pitino hire/Tubby Smith dismissal? You were proven right for the second part, by the way.
 

When Ewing gets fired, probably this year, he will unquestionably be an assistant in the NBA next year if he wants to be. When Johnson gets fired (should be this year but will probably be in 2-3 years) he will...maybe be an assistant in the Sun Belt?
 
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golfing18now said:
So if I'm reading between the subtle lines appropriately, it sounds like you have a similar affinity for the Ben Johnson hire as you did for the Richard Pitino hire/Tubby Smith dismissal? You were proven right for the second part, by the way.
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The Pitino hire, on paper, was terrible. The funny thing is that the Johnson hire makes the Pitino hire look like a stroke of genius. This program finds new and inventive ways to raise the bar on awful decision-making.

I hope to Christ, Allah, your higher power of choice that the rumors of outside influences making this hire are true, because if Coyle legitimately made this decision on his own I question whether he has lost his sanity. If we were forced to hire a black coach, fine, but couldn't we at least have gotten a good and qualified black coach?
 

dpodoll68 said:
Howard is a closer comparison to Ewing for sure. Both were very good college and pro players and had NBA assistant experience. The points that Bad seems to be forgetting are that Ewing is in the HOF, is the best player in Georgetown history, is widely considered to be one of the best players in college and pro basketball history, won a national title at Georgetown...I could go on. This is entirely ignoring his 15-year stint as an assistant in the NBA. Meanwhile, Johnson was a mediocre college player on mostly poor teams (not even remotely good enough to play professionally overseas, much less the NBA), and has followed that by being a mediocre assistant on mostly poor teams. He has zero experience in the NBA as a player or coach. Ewing has 32 years playing and coaching at the highest level of the sport, only marginally less time than Johnson has been alive.

While not perfect, the closest analogue I could think of for the Gophers would be if we had hired McHale. While that likely would have ended up being a terrible hire, much like Ewing, it would have been lauded as a coup by alumni, media, etc. and would have had many here creaming their jeans at the prospect. The fact that anyone is trying to equate hiring Ben f'ing Johnson with hiring Patrick Ewing is mind-boggling to me - almost as mind-boggling as the hire of Johnson itself.
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My point was broader, more general: I don't think Ewing gets hired there if he weren't an alum, and Johnson certainly doesn't get the job here if he didn't play high school and college ball here. Same with Whalen. Certainly every situation is different in their own ways, but that's not all that important, nor is it the point.

The flaw is a hiring process that overemphasizes whether they played or studied there. Nico would have been a great hire regardless of his alma mater; that he went to school here is a plus but should be only a secondary or tertiary consideration.
 


justthefacts said:
a) The Gophers are not going 0-20 or 1-19 or even 2-18, I'd say. I put the o/u at 3.5 B1G wins

b) That said, about 90% of posts about last night's game make comments that are desperately lacking the context of Wahl's absence. For instance, talking about the rebounding edge. Hard to take too much away from it, although the Badgers will suffer from that same lack of depth all year.
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I’ll take the under. I don’t think they win more than 3. I hope so but there’s just not much there IMO.
 

dpodoll68 said:
If we were forced to hire a black coach, fine, but couldn't we at least have gotten a good and qualified black coach?
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I think the other part of that "story" goes that he (Coyle) was sold on Ben's vision of using local connections to mine (more, higher level) local talent.

🤷‍♂️
 

MennoSota said:
This is on the Snake 🐍 (Coyle). He hired Whalen as well. Clearly the 🐍 believes coaches here can work their way into success. Ben, like Lindsey, is growing into this job, as did Little Richard. Honestly, people are barking up the wrong tree.
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The three could be characterized as “experimental hires”. This is a research university after all.
 

Bad Gopher said:
My point was broader, more general: I don't think Ewing gets hired there if he weren't an alum, and Johnson certainly doesn't get the job here if he didn't play high school and college ball here. Same with Whalen. Certainly every situation is different in their own ways, but that's not all that important, nor is it the point.

The flaw is a hiring process that overemphasizes whether they played or studied there. Nico would have been a great hire regardless of his alma mater; that he went to school here is a plus but should be only a secondary or tertiary consideration.
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That I agree with, and is what you should have said in the first place. It's weird that you chose Ewing as your example, given that alums are given preferential treatment in coaching hires all the time and it would be difficult for the two to be more dissimilar. Ewing was an obvious hire on paper and Georgetown stood to gain a lot if it was successful by bringing back fans and alums from the glory days, etc. Johnson was a "WTF?!?!?" hire on paper and even in the extremely unlikely event that he is successful does nothing to move the needle in terms of fan excitement, making Gopher hoops "cool" in the local area, and so on.
 




MNJay said:
Ben's first recruits are freshmen.

You won't give names to prove otherwise, because you know you can't.

Deep down you guys know that your temper-tantrums are childish and nonsensical. But you can't help yourselves.
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So all non freshmen filed legal papers and got a court order to be on the team against Ben’s plans and desires. Got it.
 

dpodoll68 said:
That I agree with, and is what you should have said in the first place. It's weird that you chose Ewing as your example, given that alums are given preferential treatment in coaching hires all the time and it would be difficult for the two to be more dissimilar. Ewing was an obvious hire on paper and Georgetown stood to gain a lot if it was successful by bringing back fans and alums from the glory days, etc. Johnson was a "WTF?!?!?" hire on paper and even in the extremely unlikely event that he is successful does nothing to move the needle in terms of fan excitement, making Gopher hoops "cool" in the local area, and so on.
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It was a one-sentence post, for pete's sake, but yours is a good talking point; I'll give you that. Ewing had a strong resume and would have ended up as HC somewhere. Whalen and Johnson? Not sure. Johnson had already interviewed and missed out at least one place. And although Whalen had some pro coaching experience, Ben's overall resume was better and longer than hers. Two very perplexing hires.
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is a good talking point; I'll give you that. Ewing had a strong resume and would have ended up as HC somewhere. Whalen and Johnson? Not sure. Johnson had already interviewed and missed out at least one place. And although Whalen had some pro coaching experience, Ben's overall resume was better and longer than hers. Two very perplexing hires.
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I believe Johnson was passed on at Montana State and Northern Illinois.
 




I didn't like the Ben hire......I seriously thought they were considering him as assistant when his name was floated about. That being said, you've got to give him three years to see where this thing goes. His first class will be juniors and that's plenty of time to insert your culture/system etc.....I think his recruiting has been good and Evans and Christie are a duo that has the upside of any two in the last 15 years IMO.

My big concern is the lack of what seems to be an offensive identity and defensive lapses. I thought Thorson would be a HUGE plus on that part of Ben's coaching, but so far, not so good.
 

MennoSota said:
This is on the Snake 🐍 (Coyle). He hired Whalen as well. Clearly the 🐍 believes coaches here can work their way into success. Ben, like Lindsey, is growing into this job, as did Little Richard. Honestly, people are barking up the wrong tree.
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Not even sure what this means? I dont know if I agree or disagree with this I am confused. Can you explain more? Outside of CBJ I can't say I have not liked one hire Coyle has made. I am a big PJ guy, Whalen hasnt been a homerun but I understood it, Motzko was a slam dunk, Cook seems like a great hire, softball has had some issues but Piper seems like a good option.

Again, not saying you are wrong, I just honestly dont know what this means. Are you implying he hired CBJ/Whalen because he was forced to and wants them to fail so he can say "I told you so" ?
 

leib0039 said:
Not even sure what this means? I dont know if I agree or disagree with this I am confused. Can you explain more? Outside of CBJ I can't say I have not liked one hire Coyle has made. I am a big PJ guy, Whalen hasnt been a homerun but I understood it, Motzko was a slam dunk, Cook seems like a great hire, softball has had some issues but Piper seems like a good option.

Again, not saying you are wrong, I just honestly dont know what this means. Are you implying he hired CBJ/Whalen because he was forced to and wants them to fail so he can say "I told you so" ?
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Coyle hired CBJ, with a resume that seriously lacks any semblance of qualifications for a Big 10 HC.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Patrick Ewing is one of the greatest basketball players in history. He had played and coached in the NBA for 32 years before he got the Georgetown job. It would be difficult for the hires to be any more different aside from the fact that both are alums of their respective schools. Ewing also managed to somehow squeeze the Hoyas into a Tournament bid before the bottom fell out the last two years - at this point I'll be surprised if Johnson ever finishes above .500 let alone makes the Dance.
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You’re leaving out some context on the NCAA tournament bid. He had to win their conference tournament. The bottom fell out after he 18-19 season when they all left.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Ewing was hired because he's an eminently qualified alumnus. When they hired Johnson, they ignored everything before "alumnus." Ewing is turning out to be a dud, but on paper he more than deserved the opportunity. Johnson didn't and doesn't. He couldn't get hired for a head coaching job in the MAC. They are absolutely not in the same "larger family." The Whalen comparison is also terrible, because she had zero prior coaching experience and Ewing was an assistant for 15 years in the NBA.

Comparing the Johnson hire in any way, shape, or form to the Ewing hire is a terrible and factually incorrect take. It's not as catastrophically awful as suggesting that Damian Johnson be hired as the Gophers head coach - so maybe your hot take factory is making progress?
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This is mostly true, but hiring Sam Mitchell, who was supposedly a candidate, and would be a good comp to Ewing in terms of resume, would also have been disaster IMO. I don't think hiring guys with almost entirely NBA experience to a power 5 job will generally work out. It did for Michigan and may for Indiana, we'll see.
 

dpodoll68 said:
When Ewing gets fired, probably this year, he will unquestionably be an assistant in the NBA next year if he wants to be. When Johnson gets fired (should be this year but will probably be in 2-3 years) he will...maybe be an assistant in the Sun Belt?
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Guarantee Ben would get a P6 Asst job. He’s got a network and works hard. Stop being ridiculous.
Most of this is ridiculous. Ben got hired as a P5 assistant at a young age because he grinded and worked his way there. He wasn’t a great college player, but he could’ve made money overseas. There are so many leagues, you don’t need to be all conference. Ewing will get another NBA job if he wants one sure, but it’ll be one with less responsibility.
You lack of confidence in the future is something I can understand though.
 

MennoSota said:
This is on the Snake 🐍 (Coyle). He hired Whalen as well. Clearly the 🐍 believes coaches here can work their way into success. Ben, like Lindsey, is growing into this job, as did Little Richard. Honestly, people are barking up the wrong tree.
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Did you not mean to say Serpent? 🤔
 

BarnBurner said:
Coyle hired CBJ, with a resume that seriously lacks any semblance of qualifications for a Big 10 HC.
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We will never know either way, because it makes Coyle look bad regardless (if he did, WTF?!?!; and if he didn't, he's being overruled by his bosses and looks weak) but I refuse to believe this was his decision. It's a horrifically bad hire for an experienced big time AD and is so out of character with his other hires at the U and elsewhere. It doesn't fit his typical profile at all. He's batting close to 1.000 on all of his hires at Boise, Syracuse, and here, with the jury still out on Whalen - though she seems to be getting there.
 

dpodoll68 said:
We will never know either way, because it makes Coyle look bad regardless (if he did, WTF?!?!; and if he didn't, he's being overruled by his bosses and looks weak) but I refuse to believe this was his decision. It's a horrifically bad hire for an experienced big time AD and is so out of character with his other hires at the U and elsewhere. It doesn't fit his typical profile at all. He's batting close to 1.000 on all of his hires at Boise, Syracuse, and here, with the jury still out on Whalen - though she seems to be getting there.
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Babers is something like 36-49 at Syracuse.
 

dpodoll68 said:
We will never know either way, because it makes Coyle look bad regardless (if he did, WTF?!?!; and if he didn't, he's being overruled by his bosses and looks weak) but I refuse to believe this was his decision. It's a horrifically bad hire for an experienced big time AD and is so out of character with his other hires at the U and elsewhere. It doesn't fit his typical profile at all. He's batting close to 1.000 on all of his hires at Boise, Syracuse, and here, with the jury still out on Whalen - though she seems to be getting there.
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I agree with ya here.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
You’re not “nuts” btw😃.

Coyle has a lot of slack in my opinion- PJ has been a B+/A- hire and taken football to another level snd hockey seems squared away. The academics are improved and no major off field issues, with his coaches in place.

He took a unique approach with Whalen, who seems to be figuring it out and has strong recruiting and CBJ, who did what he had to in year zero to field a roster and provided some nice moments, beating Michigan on their court.

Yes it is not optimal to be on this spot, but rational people are looking for obvious improvement; 40-24 on the boards, including 11-2 offensive boards- I really don’t care that Wahl was out , what about our injuries then? People were baying like wolves about being out rebounded and I don’t think I saw one post acknowledging that improvement. So, no figure out the turnover part and work on that.
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I was very surprised how close we stayed with the Badgers, even with Wahl out. That has to be an encouraging sign doesn't it? And the rebound advantage was also very surprising. Hoping this wasn't a one-time thing or a result of the Badgers playing poorly.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
You’re leaving out some context on the NCAA tournament bid. He had to win their conference tournament. The bottom fell out after he 18-19 season when they all left.
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Yes. That wasn't a good team either, but they got hot for a week.
 


leib0039 said:
Not even sure what this means? I dont know if I agree or disagree with this I am confused. Can you explain more? Outside of CBJ I can't say I have not liked one hire Coyle has made. I am a big PJ guy, Whalen hasnt been a homerun but I understood it, Motzko was a slam dunk, Cook seems like a great hire, softball has had some issues but Piper seems like a good option.

Again, not saying you are wrong, I just honestly dont know what this means. Are you implying he hired CBJ/Whalen because he was forced to and wants them to fail so he can say "I told you so" ?
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I'm saying people are barking up the wrong tree when they complain about coaches when the significant problem is Mark Coyle.
 

MennoSota said:
I'm saying people are barking up the wrong tree when they complain about coaches when the significant problem is Mark Coyle.
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What things would you say he has caused an issue with or what problems? Again I would say coach hirings he has done well overall. Our records are good to great in most things outside of bball.

It feels like you are implying Ben was not qualified for the job when he got it thus meaning he should take no responsibility and instead it should go to Coyle?
 

leib0039 said:
What things would you say he has caused an issue with or what problems? Again I would say coach hirings he has done well overall. Our records are good to great in most things outside of bball.

It feels like you are implying Ben was not qualified for the job when he got it thus meaning he should take no responsibility and instead it should go to Coyle?
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CBJ isn't responsible for hiring himself. Coyle is. The hiring decision rests solely on Coyle, as he is the AD.
 

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