Ben Johnson is a Disaster

Donate To GopherHole
formerlybis said:
Disagree. IMO, a competent *coach* makes do with what they have. Make Matt Painter or Steve Pikiell the coach of this team with its current roster and they’d be much, much better. Do they need a better roster? Sure. That’s not the base problem, though.
Click to expand...
“Much, much better?” A few games, sure. A 9 win B1G team? No chance.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Steve Pikiell won 6 games his first 2 seasons at Rutgers. Amazing how little knowledge fans have
Click to expand...
How can you be so obtuse? Is it intentional?....

I'm well aware that Rutgers did a lot of losing, but as others have pointed out, the underlying defensive metrics were clearly improving - that was the foundation. They've never really gotten to be a great offensive team, but they're good enough on the other end to win a lot of games.

Iowa is the opposite - a consistently elite offense and mediocre to bad defense. They also win a lot of games.

Obviously, being good at both is ideal, But being bad at both is how you get to be favored to lose every conference game. At least be good at something and you have a chance.
 

John Galt said:
“Much, much better?” A few games, sure. A 9 win B1G team? No chance.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about being much, much better offensively or defensively. I agree that they're unlikely to get to 9 wins, but they'd be far more competitive if they had something to give the opponent problems.
 


John Galt said:
“Much, much better?” A few games, sure. A 9 win B1G team? No chance.
Click to expand...
The coaches mentioned would have never constructed this roster. That IMO is the bigger issue.
Last year, Ben had not much talent, no depth and certainly no post presence but it was a guard oriented and fairly well run team- which gave me hope. The fact that he assembled a roster with so many forwards (two of our better players would also have been forwards) and so little at guard is very concerning.

I think Ben can recruit. I think he is a good guy. Can he construct a team that fits what he is trying to run? Can he do it in while he still has the promise of the future (the honeymoon period) to sell? This was always my concern from the moment he was hired. This is a tough job.
 








So I am pretty well on record saying I think Ben is not a good coach, and that is putting it mildly. I think we are in for a bottoming out for multiple years and I would move on ASAP.

That said, I am a little surprised the ones on the other side are not using Scott Drew as the prime example of patience. He had one year at Valpo, solid year but not like they made the elite 8 or anything, he got the Baylor job because of his name, in a way similar to Ben getting the job because he was an alum/young. Drew then went 3-13, 1-15, 4-12, 4-12 in conf the first four years at Baylor. And none of those years were like "well we were 12th overall in defense and just not great on offense" or anything, they were TERRIBLE on both sides of the ball. But he slowly started getting more highly regarded recruits, year 5 made the tourney and now we all know Baylor has a title and one of the best programs in the country. That is undoubtedly the exception to the rule, but if I was one of the Ben/patient/who cares about wins group he is the shining beacon I would be hanging my hat on.
 


leib0039 said:
So I am pretty well on record saying I think Ben is not a good coach, and that is putting it mildly. I think we are in for a bottoming out for multiple years and I would move on ASAP.

That said, I am a little surprised the ones on the other side are not using Scott Drew as the prime example of patience. He had one year at Valpo, solid year but not like they made the elite 8 or anything, he got the Baylor job because of his name, in a way similar to Ben getting the job because he was an alum/young. Drew then went 3-13, 1-15, 4-12, 4-12 in conf the first four years at Baylor. And none of those years were like "well we were 12th overall in defense and just not great on offense" or anything, they were TERRIBLE on both sides of the ball. But he slowly started getting more highly regarded recruits, year 5 made the tourney and now we all know Baylor has a title and one of the best programs in the country. That is undoubtedly the exception to the rule, but if I was one of the Ben/patient/who cares about wins group he is the shining beacon I would be hanging my hat on.
Click to expand...

Baylor was under pretty severe sanctions/restrictions when he got there. His 3rd season there, they weren't even allowed to play non conference games. His early tenure there, is somewhat comparable to Monson, only his was much worse given the magnitude of the scandal. If Ben had taken over something like that, my expectations would have been to just try and field a team, and hopefully by year 4 we are competitive.
 

JimmyJamesMD said:
This is why you dont hire someone with no HC experience at any level for a power 5 job
Click to expand...
I'll point out that Izzo and Gard had no HC experience, and Painter had one year when they got their jobs. Collins at Northwestern didn't have any either, but he might not be the best argument in favor of hiring a non-HC. All of those guys had impressive apprenticeships, though.

Juwan Howard had none, either, but is a different dynamic
 



golfing18now said:
Ben Johnson will get another year barring a complete meltdown. Will he deliver a similar bounce as Pitino?
Click to expand...
What constitutes a complete meltdown? Because they won't be favored in a single Big Ten game. I think he is here next year no matter what and probably 2 years no matter what.
 

leib0039 said:
So I am pretty well on record saying I think Ben is not a good coach, and that is putting it mildly. I think we are in for a bottoming out for multiple years and I would move on ASAP.

That said, I am a little surprised the ones on the other side are not using Scott Drew as the prime example of patience. He had one year at Valpo, solid year but not like they made the elite 8 or anything, he got the Baylor job because of his name, in a way similar to Ben getting the job because he was an alum/young. Drew then went 3-13, 1-15, 4-12, 4-12 in conf the first four years at Baylor. And none of those years were like "well we were 12th overall in defense and just not great on offense" or anything, they were TERRIBLE on both sides of the ball. But he slowly started getting more highly regarded recruits, year 5 made the tourney and now we all know Baylor has a title and one of the best programs in the country. That is undoubtedly the exception to the rule, but if I was one of the Ben/patient/who cares about wins group he is the shining beacon I would be hanging my hat on.
Click to expand...

Drew was hired in August, which is extremely late because Dave Bliss was fired after the scandal that included Patrick Dennehy being murdered by his teammate. There was also rampant drug use and improper benefits across that team. If there was ever a true year 0, it was Drew's first year at Baylor.

Baylor had also never been to the NCAA tournament when Drew was hired. Baylor was a far worse program historically and in far worse shape when Drew took over compared to Ben at Minnesota. Plus Drew had at least one year of success as a head coach. Things were a little different 20 years ago recruiting wise, and Baylor had every reason to remain patient with the disaster he inherited.
 

formerlybis said:
I'll point out that Izzo and Gard had no HC experience, and Painter had one year when they got their jobs. Collins at Northwestern didn't have any either, but he might not be the best argument in favor of hiring a non-HC. All of those guys had impressive apprenticeships, though.

Juwan Howard had none, either, but is a different dynamic
Click to expand...
Izzo, gard, and painter are all awful comparisons. Apple's to oranges
 

golfing18now said:
Steve Pikiell was 63rd and 23rd his first two years at Rutgers in defensive efficiency. It was pretty clear from day one what his teams would look like once they got better talent. His team is 3rd this year and coming off three consecutive NCAA appearances. He is a very underrated coach that would be very good to emulate given Rutger's relative lack of success prior to his hire.
Click to expand...
Brad Underwood was another example. Illinois sputtered initially, but I remember conversing with my mates at the games that his team was sound defensively, and it wouldn't be long before they'd be in the upper division.
 

Go Gophs said:
What constitutes a complete meltdown? Because they won't be favored in a single Big Ten game. I think he is here next year no matter what and probably 2 years no matter what.
Click to expand...

Yeah, good question. I do think he is back under almost any circumstance. Maybe barring an unforeseen scandal or if it becomes clear the team has quit on him.

More important than any particular result in the last 18 or 19 games will be what happens in April. If he is looking at another mass exodus, then you really have a problem. I'll be more interested in the retention of his players than anything else for the balance of this year.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
I still don't believe this to be 100% true, but it's possible.
Click to expand...
At the very minimum, he's the guy Coyle said blew him away at the interview and won the job. Even if the AD is lying to take on false accountability for the decision, it's still officially on him. He will give Johnson every opportunity to make good on his public statements.
 

formerlybis said:
I'll point out that Izzo and Gard had no HC experience, and Painter had one year when they got their jobs. Collins at Northwestern didn't have any either, but he might not be the best argument in favor of hiring a non-HC. All of those guys had impressive apprenticeships, though.

Juwan Howard had none, either, but is a different dynamic
Click to expand...
Gard was taking over for long term success. Painter the same. Izzo took over a team that had won a natty under Heathcote and was in the NCAAs 5 of the last 6 years. It is a lot different to get passed the baton while leading the race than getting the baton when the team is in last place or close to it.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Brad Underwood was another example. Illinois sputtered initially, but I remember conversing with my mates at the games that his team was sound defensively, and it wouldn't be long before they'd be in the upper division.
Click to expand...

100% true. @builtbadgers, as much as he gets criticized on here, has been harping for years on better defense. He's dead right. You don't need elite talent to play lock down defense.
 
Last edited:

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Plus with that team, their two best players were Nate Mason who was a sophomore, and Jordan Murphy who was a freshman. Both of those players were really good the minute they stepped on the court. The main thing that team was missing was a defensive presence in the middle, and they had that in Lynch who had to sit out due to transfer rules that season. Despite the losses, there was plenty of reason for optimism the next season, which turned out to be Pitino's best team.

They weren't led by two SRs and a JR like this team is.
Click to expand...
Plenty of reason for optimism?? You & everyone on here were acting exactly how you are now. No way in **** were you thinking past the current season.
 


bga1 said:
Gard was taking over for long term success. Painter the same. Izzo took over a team that had won a natty under Heathcote and was in the NCAAs 5 of the last 6 years. It is a lot different to get passed the baton while leading the race than getting the baton when the team is in last place or close to it.
Click to expand...

Yes, they were all part of winning programs. It's no guarantee but it is part of the reason I give Shrewsbury a higher likelihood to be successful than Johnson.
 

leib0039 said:
So I am pretty well on record saying I think Ben is not a good coach, and that is putting it mildly. I think we are in for a bottoming out for multiple years and I would move on ASAP.

That said, I am a little surprised the ones on the other side are not using Scott Drew as the prime example of patience. He had one year at Valpo, solid year but not like they made the elite 8 or anything, he got the Baylor job because of his name, in a way similar to Ben getting the job because he was an alum/young. Drew then went 3-13, 1-15, 4-12, 4-12 in conf the first four years at Baylor. And none of those years were like "well we were 12th overall in defense and just not great on offense" or anything, they were TERRIBLE on both sides of the ball. But he slowly started getting more highly regarded recruits, year 5 made the tourney and now we all know Baylor has a title and one of the best programs in the country. That is undoubtedly the exception to the rule, but if I was one of the Ben/patient/who cares about wins group he is the shining beacon I would be hanging my hat on.
Click to expand...
I think Drew is a bad example as Baylor is an outlier. Baylor University basketball scandal. A real death + the NCAA death penalty. He got so many bad years due to the program coming out of the NCAA's death penalty...who else would want that job...they had no choice but patience.
 

golfing18now said:
100% true. @builtbaders, as much as he gets criticized on here, has been harping for years on better defense. He's dead right. You don't need elite talent to play lock down defense.
Click to expand...
This has always been the way to win at almost any place that has been bad for awhile. Play defense and rebound. And hit open three point baskets. This is what Wisconsin has done for years and it doesn't take alot of talent, only brains and WANT to.
Any coach that wants to win here has to embrace this type of style. If in fact they ever do win something and start to get more talent, then it can be adjusted, but for now IMO, the formula is to win games in the 50s and 60s.
 

Crappie said:
I'm stating roster management is a big part of cbj job, and if he makes poor choices he will need to make other, perhaps more difficult choices in the future.
Btw no need for the attitude.
Click to expand...
To me, good roster management is gearing-up for the future and trying to get good players at every position AT THE SAME TIME. Not bringing in transfers now who leave when our young players become good.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Xavier was AWFUL while Ben was there. Awful. Which is the point. We hired an assistant, from a program that is usually a top 25 program, only while the guy we hired was there, they went through their worst stretch in 40 years! Ben was a FAILURE at Xavier. He'd be an assistant at Miami(Oh) making $100K per year if we didn't hire him. Instead we're blowing over $2 Million per year on him.
Click to expand...
What you don't understand is...college basketball is a 4-year-cycle of players...who start out as freshmen and then get better as they get older.

Ben's job was to recruit. He shouldn't be blamed for the current state of Xavier's program that he inherited.
 

formerlybis said:
I'll point out that Izzo and Gard had no HC experience, and Painter had one year when they got their jobs. Collins at Northwestern didn't have any either, but he might not be the best argument in favor of hiring a non-HC. All of those guys had impressive apprenticeships, though.

Juwan Howard had none, either, but is a different dynamic
Click to expand...
Juwan Howard was an NBA assistant for many years + NBA player for a decade plus (counts for something)....i'd argue that his ties are better (Fab 5 *best team in school history*) is better than Ben's)
 

formerlybis said:
Disagree. IMO, a competent *coach* makes do with what they have. Make Matt Painter or Steve Pikiell the coach of this team with its current roster and they’d be much, much better. Do they need a better roster? Sure. That’s not the base problem, though.
Click to expand...
I highly disagree. When a team is losing, everyone automatically says the coach is an idiot. 100% of the time. And when a team is winning, everyone says the coach is a genius.

It's like magic. Every time.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom