Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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dbmn said:
The state of the men's and woman's BB programs is in large part due to Coyle and his choice of coaches.
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He fixed one hiring error (we think). Hopefully he cares enough to fix the other.
 

howeda7 said:
We'll all be thrilled if he pulls off a miracle this year. That doesn't require us to delude ourselves into believing it's likely to happen.
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Deluded? No one is deluded about anything but no one knows exactly what will happen this season either. If some choose to keep an optimistic outlook and enjoy the possibilities for the time being, how is that any skin off your ass?

"We'll all be thrilled if he pulls off a miracle this year." No you won't. Cut the BS.

"Fire him last year.....fire him as early as possible this year...oh, but I think he's a really nice guy and I hope he pulls off a miracle." How dumb do you think people are?
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Deluded? No one is deluded about anything but no one knows exactly what will happen this season either. If some choose to keep an optimistic outlook and enjoy the possibilities for the time being, how is that any skin off your ass?

"We'll all be thrilled if he pulls off a miracle this year." No you won't. Cut the BS.

"Fire him last year.....fire him as early as possible this year...oh, but I think he's a really nice guy and I hope he pulls off a miracle." How dumb do you think people are?
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Congrats on quickest to my ignore list Rock Melon...
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
This isn’t a youth issue, this is a coaching and roster construction issue. It’s not going to get much better next season.

When you hire someone who doesn’t have any credentials to be a B1G coach, this is what you get. This is the worst Gopher basketball team I’ve seen in my lifetime.
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You do not know that. Lets let the season play out! For the first time he has a full roster and no excuses! IMO if this team finishes in the top 8 or 9 he has proven himself as a decent coach. IMO they will be better than Wisconsin, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, and Northwestern and competitive with Michigan. Yeah i a delusional but Wisconsin is on a downward spiral, so is Michogan under Juwan Howard, and Rutgers, Penn State, Northwesten had a couple good years and will return to the pack this year! Although i can be a tad optmistic at times! Lol!
FYI at best the Big Ten is the 4th to 6th best Division 1 basketball conference! Id rank ACC, SEC, Big 12 ahead of it n us about even with the Big East n Pac 12.
 
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MTBeaudry said:
You do not know that. Lets let the season play out! For the first time he has a full roster and no excuses! IMO if this team finishes in the top 8 or 9 he has proven himself as a decent coach. IMO they will be better than Wisconsin, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, and Northwestern and competitive with Michigan. Yeah i a delusional but Wisconsin is on a downward spiral, so is Michogan under Juwan Howard, and Rutgers, Penn State, Northwesten had a couple good years and will return to the pack this year! Although i can be a tad optmistic at times! Lol!
FYI at best the Big Ten is the 4th to 6th best Division 1 basketball conference! Id rank ACC, SEC, Big 12 ahead of it n us about even with the Big East n Pac 12.
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I don't know anything about the other conferences or even the other teams in the B1G. The first thing I'm going to look for this year is if the team is in shape. Last year both pg's, Carrington and JOJ had dad bods, which is inexcusable. The overall conditioning was terrible. The second thing I'm interested in is if they hit FT's. Last year was terrible. Both of the aforementioned are controllable and are on the coaching staff.

I believe the talent level and depth are significantly improved, which is a credit to CBJ. The program and roster seem more stable than Johnson's first two years. This year we find out if he can coach and keep a team together. I'm cautiously optimistic that he can.
 


MTBeaudry said:
You do not know that. Lets let the season play out! For the first time he has a full roster and no excuses! IMO if this team finishes in the top 8 or 9 he has proven himself as a decent coach. IMO they will be better than Wisconsin, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, and Northwestern and competitive with Michigan. Yeah i a delusional but Wisconsin is on a downward spiral, so is Michogan under Juwan Howard, and Rutgers, Penn State, Northwesten had a couple good years and will return to the pack this year! Although i can be a tad optmistic at times! Lol!
FYI at best the Big Ten is the 4th to 6th best Division 1 basketball conference! Id rank ACC, SEC, Big 12 ahead of it n us about even with the Big East n Pac 12.
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Nothing wrong with a little optimism - especially before the season starts. I won't go as far as saying that he'll prove himself by having a decent season this year. Most coaches who are coaching for any length of time can point to at least one fair to good season. Have to do it with some consistency to be called a good coach. But, like you, I'm ready for a significantly better season and I agree that he might have the roster to accomplish that.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
I'll give you the first point. As to the 120 pages of this thread, well, I've read some of your posts and you seem like a gentleman, so I'll ask you - How many times does one have to kick a wounded horse? I'm not a fan of mob behavior even if it is only online.

Yes, the schedule is exceptionally weak. Everyone knows that and that fact has been repeated and jeered endlessly. Apparently, many on here have no concept of when "enough is enough." I will say that if all those easy games in the early part of the season result in more playing time throughout the roster in those games, then this schedule might demonstrate value as time goes by.
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How many times have you banned?
 

jamiche said:
I don't know anything about the other conferences or even the other teams in the B1G. The first thing I'm going to look for this year is if the team is in shape. Last year both pg's, Carrington and JOJ had dad bods, which is inexcusable. The overall conditioning was terrible. The second thing I'm interested in is if they hit FT's. Last hhyear was terrible. Both of the aforementioned are controllable and are on the coaching staff.

I believe the talent level and depth are significantly improved, which is a credit to CBJ. The program and roster seem more stable than Johnson's first two years. This year we find out if he can coach and keep a team together. I'm cautiously optimistic that he can.
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My point on the conference is i think it is incredibly overrated. The Big 10 has done nothing in the NCAA'S for several years now
 

MTBeaudry said:
My point on the conference is i think it is incredibly overrated. The Big 10 has done nothing in the NCAA'S for several years now
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And yet the Gophers have still been non competitive and blown out in most games over the last 2 years, and still have the worst roster in the league.
 



bc2211 said:
How many times have you banned?
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Never banned. I'm not who some of you think I am but I did enjoy reading that persons posts from time to time. I appreciated his optimism when that was in short supply and I thought his Michael Corleone treatment (My offer is this: Nothing!) of his critics was appropriate.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
I'll give you the first point. As to the 120 pages of this thread, well, I've read some of your posts and you seem like a gentleman, so I'll ask you - How many times does one have to kick a wounded horse? I'm not a fan of mob behavior even if it is only online.

Yes, the schedule is exceptionally weak. Everyone knows that and that fact has been repeated and jeered endlessly. Apparently, many on here have no concept of when "enough is enough." I will say that if all those easy games in the early part of the season result in more playing time throughout the roster in those games, then this schedule might demonstrate value as time goes by.
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I would say three things about the ongoing criticism of Ben Johnson.

1. Most of the criticism to this point has been directed at the individuals that did the hiring of Ben Johnson. He had nothing in his resume to suggest he was ready for this job. His resume is far behind his peers in the conference. You only need to look at who Penn State hired recently to confirm. Penn State!
2. Ben Johnson did what any of us would have done.....take a dream job even if he was unqualified. With that choice, he put himself in the meat grinder. But he will make more in three years than many of us will make in a lifetime. That sort of responsibility comes with expectations and likely criticism.
3. To this point his results have supported the contention he wasn't ready for this job. That doesn't mean he can't improve upon those results this year. But putting a schedule together that would do nothing for an NCAA bid does little to suggest the ceiling they have set for themselves is higher than an NIT bid. That is a pretty low bar in three years when many programs exceed that low threshold. We have seen that in my instances in other colleges.

On your point in bold.....I understand the negativity does get pretty rampant at times. But that isn't unique to Gophers basketball. That's true of sports in general when a team/franchise is losing. I would have argued years ago that these are just college kids and shouldn't be criticized as they represent their school. That's not the case anymore with freedom of movement, NIL deals, etc. This looks more like pro sports than it ever has before.

Lastly, I could do without the personal attacks that happen on this board. It is much worse on the Off Topic Board. But I don't think a respectful exchange of viewpoints, even those you don't agree with, is a bad thing. I would be very uninterested in a message board where only certain viewpoints were allowed. The reason I interjected my viewpoint initially here is because @GopherWeatherGuy's original point was in the right thread and defensible. He is far from the worst troll on this board.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Nothing wrong with a little optimism - especially before the season starts. I won't go as far as saying that he'll prove himself by having a decent season this year. Most coaches who are coaching for any length of time can point to at least one fair to good season. Have to do it with some consistency to be called a good coach. But, like you, I'm ready for a significantly better season and I agree that he might have the roster to accomplish that.
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I agree maybe he will not have proven himself to be a decent coach but perhaps we can have some hooe that he might develop into a decent coach by having a decent season
 

disagree
GopherWeatherGuy said:
This team will be lucky to get to 4 wins in the B1G. And it has nothing to do with NIL. Most other B1G teams are in the exact same situation with NIL, or even worse than the Gophers. Yet their programs are far and away better. Ben is the reason for the state of the program, no one else.
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Totally disagree i am seeing 6-10 wins in the Big 10. Imo u vastly overrate how good this conference is. Not a legitimate top 8 team in the in the nation in the conference like the previous couple of years. The conference's performance in the NCAA'S does not justify the number of teams from our conference.that get in.
 




USAF said:
"Joined Sep 12, 2023"

Hahahaha. You're not fooling anyone, rock.
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I'm not surprised that many of you believe that I must be Rockhaven (or maybe Rockraven, I don't exactly remember). You aren't exactly a group of deep thinkers. You're also pretty naive if you think that poster is the only one who dislikes you.
 
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Pretty quiet on the basketball board this morning. I wonder why?
 

golfing18now said:
Lastly, I could do without the personal attacks that happen on this board. It is much worse on the Off Topic Board. But I don't think a respectful exchange of viewpoints, even those you don't agree with, is a bad thing. I would be very uninterested in a message board where only certain viewpoints were allowed. The reason I interjected my viewpoint initially here is because @GopherWeatherGuy's original point was in the right thread and defensible. He is far from the worst troll on this board.
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I certainly don't mind a little negativity. As I said in my original post to you, I don't like online mob behavior.

There are two types of people on this board right now. There are those who wanted Johnson gone yesterday, will not be happy until he is fired, and will make a point to piss on any discussion where people prefer to maintain some sense of optimism about the upcoming season. The other group understands Johnson's failures (how could they not?) but still think he deserves one more chance. They also think that he has upgraded the roster and that the team might be better this season than the general expectations.

"But I don't think a respectful exchange of viewpoints, even those you don't agree with, is a bad thing."

I believe that where you are concerned and that's why I called you a "gentleman" in that previous post. I think you also know that there are very frequent departures from what you have described in the quote above and I don't see anything wrong with meeting fire with fire.
 
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Ben Johnson reminds me of Ryan Saunders as the Timberwolves HC. Just totally unfit for the job. He deserved a chance but man has he faceplanted
 


MTBeaudry said:
disagree

Totally disagree i am seeing 6-10 wins in the Big 10. Imo u vastly overrate how good this conference is. Not a legitimate top 8 team in the in the nation in the conference like the previous couple of years. The conference's performance in the NCAA'S does not justify the number of teams from our conference.that get in.
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Sparty would disagree.
 

golfing18now said:
3. To this point his results have supported the contention he wasn't ready for this job. That doesn't mean he can't improve upon those results this year. But putting a schedule together that would do nothing for an NCAA bid does little to suggest the ceiling they have set for themselves is higher than an NIT bid. That is a pretty low bar in three years when many programs exceed that low threshold. We have seen that in my instances in other colleges.

On your point in bold.....I understand the negativity does get pretty rampant at times. But that isn't unique to Gophers basketball. That's true of sports in general when a team/franchise is losing. I would have argued years ago that these are just college kids and shouldn't be criticized as they represent their school. That's not the case anymore with freedom of movement, NIL deals, etc. This looks more like pro sports than it ever has before.
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There were a couple of things in your thoughtful post that I meant to address but didn't in the previous post.

First the bolded part. Yes, there is criticism of players and coaches on all sports boards but the ultimate targets of rancor on message boards (whether sports or political) are other posters, just like the ultimate targets in civil wars are your own people.

Now to point 3. Yes, the schedule is pretty bad but there is only so much worth saying about that. I agree that this probably is an NIT hopeful schedule but I'm not going be angry at this point if that is the end result. That's better than we had in Johnson's previous two years and better than we had in five of Pitino's eight years.

I think Johnson probably should be fired if he doesn't have at least a 17-14 record this season (of course, if there is any postseason that should be figured in). That might seem like a low bar in year 3 but some coaches who haven't exceeded that bar, even in the Big Ten, have been retained.

Fred Hoiberg (Nebraska):

Year 1: 7-25
Year 2: 7-20
Year 3: 10-22

In Year 4, he had a 16-16 record and he's still there for a 5th year.

Pat Chambers (Penn State)

Year 1: 12-20
Year 2: 10-21
Year 3: 16-18

Chambers went on to serve 9 years as Penn State's coach and ended up having a couple of good years later in his tenure.

Now, more than a few people might say "We're not Nebraska or Penn State!" I would say that the Gophers weren't those programs during stretches of the 20th century or during Tubby's tenure but that's exactly where the program is now. I would also say that those coaches above didn't have the same level of difficulties that Johnson has faced in his first two years. I'm not suggesting that this program should be as lenient on the subject of coach retention as those programs were (I've already stated my expectation for an acceptable season) but that level of leniency isn't unprecedented.
 

MonikerSchmoniker45 said:
Tough situation losing basically your entire team the first year though.
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Ben Johnson's strength was supposed to be recruiting. There hasn't been one positive in his tenure so far.

I'm glad we gave him a shot as it was worth the gamble but to say he hasn't been a failure in pretty much every way so far would be incorrect. This season obviously hasn't started yet but he isn't looking good.

We shouldn't fault Ben for things that are out of his control but we can judge him for things that are in his control...what positives has he brought to this program so far? He shouldn't be kept around if this year is another dumpster fire. No need to keep around a bad coach
 

Former Goofer said:
Ben Johnson's strength was supposed to be recruiting. There hasn't been one positive in his tenure so far.

I'm glad we gave him a shot as it was worth the gamble but to say he hasn't been a failure in pretty much every way so far would be incorrect. This season obviously hasn't started yet but he isn't looking good.

We shouldn't fault Ben for things that are out of his control but we can judge him for things that are in his control...what positives has he brought to this program so far? He shouldn't be kept around if this year is another dumpster fire. No need to keep around a bad coach
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On court- the results have been a disaster.

His HS recruiting has been quite good IMO

Payne
Carrington
Henley
Evans
Christie
Betts
Asuma
Grove

Those are all solid talented kids with good character. Two got lost to NIL and that certainly is a problem that I cannot blame Ben for. This program was a mess and kids at this level are about as good as one could hope for unless we start dropping 6 figure NIL deals. Now the players need time to mature and mold into a team.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
There are two types of people on this board right now. There are those who wanted Johnson gone yesterday, will not be happy until he is fired, and will make a point to piss on any discussion where people prefer to maintain some sense of optimism about the upcoming season. The other group understands Johnson's failures (how could they not?) but still think he deserves one more chance. They also think that he has upgraded the roster and that the team might be better this season than the general expectations.
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This is probably not too far from the truth. I haven't spent as much time on the basketball board this summer as I typically do. During the season, it was really ugly on here. But summer is always the time for optimism until we see the product on the floor. I probably need to remind myself of that because I'll admit I'm down on this program. To your original point.....if threads not named "Ben Johnson is a Disaster" are continually tainted with unrelated negativity, I'll grant you the point.

TwistingMyMelon said:
I believe that where you are concerned and that's why I called you a "gentleman" in that previous post. I think you also know that there are very frequent departures from what you have described in the quote above and I don't see anything wrong with meeting fire with fire.
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For sure. I have no problem with people have strong opinions on here. Attack my viewpoints (for example) as much as you want. Bring something of substance as you do in your next post to me and that's better yet. Stay away from the personal attacks (talking in general, not to you specifically) and this site would be better.

Thanks for the kind words.
 
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TwistingMyMelon said:
I'm not surprised that many of you believe that I must be Rockhaven (or maybe Rockraven, I don't exactly remember). You aren't exactly a group of deep thinkers. You're also pretty naive if you think that poster is the only one who dislikes you.
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I am buying it.

Twisting is just a guy who is a big fan of Rockraven but decided to start posting while Rockraven was banned for the 14th time. He is such a fan of Rockraven that he decided to copy his writing style, hot takes, and even his grammatical errors. This completely checks out.

If I'm wrong and Twisting is really Rockraven, I don't blame him. I would not want to admit I'm Rockraven either.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I am buying it.

Twisting is just a guy who is a big fan of Rockraven but decided to start posting while Rockraven was banned for the 14th time. He is such a fan of Rockraven that he decided to copy his writing style, hot takes, and even his grammatical errors. This completely checks out.

If I'm wrong and Twisting is really Rockraven, I don't blame him. I would not want to admit I'm Rockraven either.
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Copy his writing style? I think not. As I recall, Rockraven was glib and fairly brief in his writing. I'm more expository in my writing, even a little loquacious frequently. I also recall that he sometimes made reference to having a lot of personal resources which is something I've never done.

Hot takes by me? Give me an example. I'm reasonably cautious in speaking and writing unless I'm departing from that just for effect or simply joking.

I think you're lying about doing that research, Bob.
 



TwistingMyMelon said:
Copy his writing style? I think not. As I recall, Rockraven was glib and fairly brief in his writing. I'm more expository in my writing, even a little loquacious frequently. I also recall that he sometimes made reference to having a lot of personal resources which is something I've never done.

Hot takes by me? Give me an example. I'm reasonably cautious in speaking and writing unless I'm departing from that just for effect or simply joking.

I think you're lying about doing that research, Bob.
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You have to consider the source bud in my experience on here.

I for one appreciate your perspective
 


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