fan of Ray Williams
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C'mon man, this is basketball. Do this in the hockey forum. That's what it's for.
Basketball ONLY fans - I need your help!!!
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short ornery norwegian
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Different expectations for different sports. a lot (not all) of Gopher Hockey fans believe the season is a complete failure if the Gophers do not play for the NCAA title.
Meanwhile, Gopher hoops can go years without even making the NCAA tournament, and fans just shrug their shoulders and claim the coach needs more time.
In my uneducated point of view, I think the college Hockey world has caught up to the Gophers. any perceived advantage the Gophers had ("they get all the best recruits....") is really not applicable anymore. And the move to the B1G in Hockey has really damaged the Gophers' image with a lot of the hard-core fans.
So, Killme - I don't necessarily think Lucia has lost it - but I can also see the possible benefits of a new voice and a different point of view. Plus, a new coach comes in with a fresh slate, and doesn't inherit any of Lucia's perceived baggage. For the long-term success of the program, a new coach might be the best way to go.
Meanwhile, Gopher hoops can go years without even making the NCAA tournament, and fans just shrug their shoulders and claim the coach needs more time.
In my uneducated point of view, I think the college Hockey world has caught up to the Gophers. any perceived advantage the Gophers had ("they get all the best recruits....") is really not applicable anymore. And the move to the B1G in Hockey has really damaged the Gophers' image with a lot of the hard-core fans.
So, Killme - I don't necessarily think Lucia has lost it - but I can also see the possible benefits of a new voice and a different point of view. Plus, a new coach comes in with a fresh slate, and doesn't inherit any of Lucia's perceived baggage. For the long-term success of the program, a new coach might be the best way to go.
Hey, I can totally appreciate your viewpoint. I'm NOT against bringing in a new coach, I just feel strongly that it has to be someone almost guaranteed to be an improvement over Lucia. So many people mention Guentzal and Motzko?? OMG, I just think those are going from bad to worse. Or ok to not so ok.
If the new voice was a Grant P or the old Wild Coach that is a Gopher grad, then I'd be interested, and not solely because they are Gopher grads, but because they are Gopher grads who could get the attention of future recruits and who I believe would want the best for the program, not just for selfish reasons. Otherwise, unless you bring in a York or some other sure thing, I'd rather stick with Lucia for a couple years to see what he can do.
Oh, and its my opinion, based on EVIDENCE, that as long as we get into the tourney, that we can win the Title. We lost to #1 Notre Dame, ON THE ROAD, by 1 goal. We beat #3 SCSU and we SWEPT #4 Clarkson. So right there we can hang with the other 3 most probable FF opponents. We also BEAT #12 UND in a road game, and lost to #9 UMD by just 1 goal ON THE ROAD. I mean, one of those could easily be our 1st round opponent.
I was asking for a specifically CBB only perspective. No one forced you to read this thread. Did they???
Someone else was right when they described you as crazed. Good lord, just make your 'i love Lucia" t-shirt and signs and go picket the athletic department offices already. That seems to be your only recourse at this point.
The rest of us will just keep paying attention to other things currently more interesting than the men's hockey program. As of now, there are plenty of options available.
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Don has a very loyal brother in law. That's nice.
Otis
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Is Geno still alive? Dean Blais? Hakstol?
Those guys know how to recruit Canada which is what the Gophers need. Minnesota Woog could never get it done with his all Minnesota groups.
I feel your pain man! But when you say Lucia is learning how to recruit I feel more along the lines of "How the hell did he get the job in the first place?"
Imagine if Football or basketball hired a coach needing to learn to recruit. Now that would be a s#!t storm!
Those guys know how to recruit Canada which is what the Gophers need. Minnesota Woog could never get it done with his all Minnesota groups.
I feel your pain man! But when you say Lucia is learning how to recruit I feel more along the lines of "How the hell did he get the job in the first place?"
Imagine if Football or basketball hired a coach needing to learn to recruit. Now that would be a s#!t storm!
Otis
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Is Geno still alive? Dean Blais? Hakstol?
Those guys know how to recruit Canada which is what the Gophers need. Minnesota Woog could never get it done with his all Minnesota groups.
I feel your pain man! But when you say Lucia is learning how to recruit I feel more along the lines of "How the hell did he get the job in the first place?"
Imagine if Football or basketball hired a coach needing to learn to recruit. Now that would be a s#!t storm!
Those guys know how to recruit Canada which is what the Gophers need. Minnesota Woog could never get it done with his all Minnesota groups.
I feel your pain man! But when you say Lucia is learning how to recruit I feel more along the lines of "How the hell did he get the job in the first place?"
Imagine if Football or basketball hired a coach needing to learn to recruit. Now that would be a s#!t storm!
Ignatius L Hoops
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The difference is basketball uses RPI as a tool in selecting NCAA teams. So there's some extended discussion of strength of schedule. In hockey, after the auto bids, Pair Wise is the law. No discussion. Pair Wise cares not a whit about your strength of schedule arguments or Don Lucia.
I'm cheating as I like both sports already....
I like your take. It is nice to hear the angle.
I think what long time hockey fans see as missing is this team is not performing better than the sum of it's parts.
Chemistry in Hockey is far more important than basketball and I think that is the difference. Hockey has twice the size of roster than basketball, and unlike basketball all of them matter. Moreover, it is also has the specialization of football, while the maintain the fluid dynamics of basketball. So when a long time puck fan looks at our roster, they see all the pieces, but not the results. They then assume it is due to mental laziness on the part of players. Moreover, they also feel like every part on the Gophs team is replaceable by someone that would work harder on the mental aspects.
Personally, when I think the captain matters more in College Hockey to obtain that chemistry.
However, it is a weird game, where the more talented teams don't produce then you get a less talented squad that blows your expectations (such as when Mike Vannelli led us as a SR).
Glad to have your enthusiasm, Gophs Hockey fans do get rather complacent.
Ewert86PC
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Yep.
Don't people understand that this is another one of those threads celebrating mediocrity? Lucia hasn't won lately. We brought Tubby in based on what he did in the past and, for various reasons, it hurt the MBB program more than it helped. Why should we keep a coach that has won championships, but has now caused the program's prominence to backslide? It's like a mutual fund disclaimer: past performance is no indication of future earnings (winning).
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Ewert86PC
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To retain national prominence you have to play a tougher schedule and win. Otherwise, you let other programs catch up to, and surpass, your program. Quit promoting mediocrity based on what happened In the past. Excellence is what is happens in the here & now and what is going on now is not excellence.
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Ewert86PC
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*Lucia is still learning to recruit? WTF! At least, Pitino was sold to fans as needing training wheels. Lucia should serve as a warning to those who want to keep Pitino on into year 6 and beyond. [s***storm engaged]
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Like what? The Vikings? The Wild that were behind 6-0 before scoring a couple? Will they even make the playoffs? The T-Pups that got whooped by GS? The Women's Hockey team that just got swept by OSU? The Men's BB team that is in what place now? 11th? The Women's BB team that is barely in the Top 50 of the RPI???
What are all of these options that are so much better???
The Gopher Men's Hockey team is the Minnesota program, AFTER the Lynx, with the best chance of winning a Title this year.
Gopher Men's Hockey team has THREE wins vs Top 4 ranked teams and is getting ready to host the #1 ranked team in the nation AT HOME, where they were 11-2 before the Michigan series.
Only Notre Dame has more Top 20 wins than Minnesota.
I know, I know, you all hate Lucia so badly that you are hoping the team loses. Admit it.
You figure if we win then we'll be stuck with Lucia.
Name me the coaches with more than 2 Titles???
I'm waiting??? Yeah, just one. And his team is about to miss the NCAA tourney for the 2nd year in a row and this will be the 6th year in a row BC hasn't gotten back to the title game. They are getting worse every year. He's getting old, might retire soon?
Hakstol never did win a title. Did he even get to a Title game?
DU's back to back winning coach isn't there anymore.
Took DU A DECADE to get back to the Frozen Four.
Took UND 16 years to win another Title after the won in 2001.
Blue blood programs do not dominate anymore. three times as many Non-blue blood programs made the Frozen Four the last 10 years compared to the 10 years prior to that.
Non-blue bloods won 3 straight titles, with UMD doing it a few years prior to them and UMD almost did it again last year.
None of those Champions have returned to the Frozen Four. Why is that?
UND won 15 fewer games the year after their recent title. This year they are only 6-6-2 vs the Top 20 and 6-2-4 vs the bottom 40. UND couldn't get a sweep vs #60 AA. They tied em, 1-1 and got a 1 goal win in the other game, against the worst team in the entire country.
UND has ties vs Wisconsin and Bemidji St., Union and #60 AA.
UMn is 7-0-0 vs the middle 20 teams and 0-0-0 vs the bottom 20.
UMn is the only team IN THE NATION without a loss or a tie vs the bottom 40 teams.
The KRACH rankings have Minnesota ranked EIGHTH
Thank you for your kind words. It's refreshing when everyone else seems to want to beat me up or call me names or question my intelligence. I mean, I can handle it. It's just sad that in the land of so called Minnesota Nice, so many people feel the need to be vicious. It's not healthy or constructive.
I PRAY Lucia wins a Title this year and they all have to eat crow!!! Prob won't, but I love it when negative people get proven wrong.
Ewert86PC
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Troll. You are repeating arguments that have not swayed a majority of this board. Your wall of statistics become even more meaningless as you keep repeating them to people who prefer to use the eye test.
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Nothing mediocre about playing 50% more Top 20 opponents than ANY OTHER TEAM in the Top 20 not in the B1G.
SCSU has played 14 Top 20 opponents, ONLY Big Ten teams have played more. Notre Dame, Wisconsin have played 16, PSU 15.
UMn TWENTY ONE!!!!!
And UMn's beaten 3 Top 4 ranked teams. Nothing mediocre about that.
And only Notre Dame has beaten more Top 20 ranked teams than Minnesota
And not a single team OTHER THAN MINNESOTA can claim ZERO losses or ties to the Bottom 40.
Nothing mediocre about that.
And no school in all of hockey comes even close to matching what UMn has lost to the NHL before their eligibility was up.
UMn early departures had 333 points in the NHL as of yesterday. No other school comes close to that.
Kessel is #3 in scoring, Wheeler #10. 4 in the Top 75, 6 in the Top 125, 10 in the Top 225. ALL Early departures.
Kessel is so far ahead of everyone else in the NHL in PP Points with 33, next best is Crosby with just 28.
SCSU's alums, whether early departures or not, combined only have scored 38 pts. lol
I never said he is STILL learning how to recruit.
He's ADJUSTING to the changing times.
One and doners don't work. They cause inconsistency and disruption, are not good for developing chemistry and team unity, especially when they leave half way through a season. Maybe they are full of themselves and care only about getting to the NHL and aren't team players?
He knew how to recruit the best players in the nation. Vanek, Kessel, Wheeler, Okposo. But that didn't work. So he's aiming for a different kind of player, the kind who will stick around for 3 maybe 4 years, and critics interpret that to mean his recruiting skills are getting worse???
Only Kentucky fans like the way Calipari recruits. No other fans of other programs like that idea of reloading with one and doners every year hoping every once in a while they will somehow form a good team. UK has won how many Titles under Calipari? Yeah, just one. They are not even in the Top 25 right now.
But only Vanek seemed to help his team be a better team. One and doners don't work in hockey very often. Cept when they have a solid team around them. Vanek worked because of the great team he joined.
Blue bloods are having to recruit younger and younger players, its becoming more and more of a crap shoot.
non-blue bloods are getting to more and more Frozen Fours, 3 times as many the last 10 years than the 10 years prior.
More and more teams are losing players early to the NHL.
The eye test??? You applied the eye test to last year's gopher mens bb team and predicted doom and gloom all year long and were proven WRONG so many times it became a running joke over there.
The eye test is only good for those who can't read and for those who can watch hundreds of hours of games.
Did you not watch the games vs #4 Clarkson, #3 SCSU, #12 UND, #17 Harvard?
The one goal ROAD losses to #1 Notre Dame, #6 OSU, #10 UMD & #15 Mich???
Or the 7 wins and no losses or ties to the fewest Bottom 40 teams of any team in the Top 20???
We beat Union, something UND couldn't manage to do.
We swept MSU all 4 games. Something Western Michigan couldn't do.
Ewert86PC
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"SCSU has played 14 Top 20 opponents, ONLY Big Ten teams have played more. Notre Dame, Wisconsin have played 16, PSU 15.
UMn TWENTY ONE!!!!!"
What are their winning percentages versus those Top 20 teams?
Quit trying to impress us with basic numbers and translate those into statistics. It doesn't matter if we have played 21 Top 20 opponents if we win 1 out of every three games, 4/7, when SCSU would win 10/14, Notre Dame 2/3 & Wisconsin 1/3. (Those numbers are made up to show you the flaw in your raw data thinking/rationalization)
Just because we have more opportunity means nothing if we do not capitalize on these opportunities. That is what mediocrity is all about.
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Ewert86PC
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Wow. You really do troll well. Did the eye test fail the year before or this year? A stopped clock can be right twice per day, but being accurate 66% of the time still beats being accurate 33% of the time. Just because there was a performance aberration last year does not mean this is a cohesive team that is being given the best chance to win.
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You know that RPI is a huge factor in the PWR? right? Otherwise yes, I know PWR is law. Which is retarded beyond compare. But it mirrors the even more retarded RPI.
Go compare them.
And RPI is a crappy system loosely based on SOS. So it DOES matter.
Losses to good teams don't hurt as much as losses to bad teams. Wins against good teams help more than wins vs bad teams.
But yes, College hockey is one of the DUMBEST sports ever for not realizing how retarded the PWR ranking system is.
I know what your point is. But UMn's #10 in the PWR now and can easily jump up several spots with just a few key wins in the last 4 weekends.
Oh, now last year was a performance aberration?? lol Wow, your stupidity never ceases to amaze.
No chance losing 3 of the teams Top 6 players for much or all of the season had anything to do with it?? lol
Curry going down hurt, created a slight depth problem, that was made much worse while first McBrayer and then Coffey were injured. Then Lynch gets suspended? Totally gutted our inside defense, allowing opponents to play further out on the perimeter making it tougher for our gaurds to get good shots or penetrate to the basket. On defense the other team could drive at will on Konate and Gaston, while double teaming Murphy.
But you have always hated Pitino, so you are loving this season, aren't you? Man, what a jerk.
Thank goodness we can't afford to get rid of Pitino. Next year will be much different.
Same could be said for the hockey team if Middlestadt comes back. This year's seniors are the least contributing class. Next year should see a much more talented or productive Senior class leading the team, and our schedule couldn't be as tough as this years is.
Lucia's probably having flashbacks to 2000, when his Gophers played a similarly BRUTAL schedule and just missed out on the NCAA tournament, only to win back to back titles just 2 and 3 seasons later.
Ewert86PC
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A good coach gets the best out of all of his players, not just his favorites. Injuries happen all the time that is why a deep bench is crucial.
If you don't look at Pitino's first two years because of Tubby's influence or because of learning to coach, then all you have are the last three years and yes, last year was the one not like the other, the one that doesn't belong.
Pitino recruited Bakary and Gaston. He accepted Lynch on the team because they were not developing. Pitino is responsible for this situation because he hasn't brought in a big man who can either play or remain on the team.
The guards Pitino brought in have been inconsistent. That makes them better recruiting choices, then again anyone who runs a 40 yard dash against me would look like a speedster. It's perspective. How do the guards compare to the rest off the NCAA guards? That's the question you ask if you want to win a National Championship, not a conference championship or a divisional championship.That is the question people who strive for excellence ask. Those are the questions people who accept mediocrity avoid asking.
In all honesty, it will cost more to retain Pitino because of the damage that he is doing to the program's reputation.
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The same few people use this word to describe anyone who doesn't share their opinion, and it's freaking absurd. Get ahold of yourself, man, and cut the "Troll" hysterics.
Really, your "eye test" is superior to any other analytical approach out there? He presented some factual information (number of matchups, record, etc). You're untrained eye test is completely worthless as support for anything.
This is one of the most absurd, and borderline insane, comments I've read on here.
Disagree? Great, good for you. But chastising a a guy for presenting some evidence of something you don't believe in (based on absolutely nothing), provide nothing of worth to the debate ("eye-test" is a convenient way to ignore a point while presenting no contrary evidence), and use insults in an attempt to drive your point home? I'm impressed.
I know who the "Troll" is in this exchange.
You mean the SCSU team that couldn't get a win vs #43 Princeton??
The SCSU team that has just 3 wins on the road.
The SCSU team that is 2-3-2 in their last 7 games???
The SCSU team that has fallen from #1 to #5 in the USCHO poll.
The SCSU team that probably will lose 1 or both of its games this weekend because they are playing a Top Ten ranked team ON THE ROAD???
Thanks man!! Nice to know that there are a few intelligent or at least fair people in here. Don't even know if you agree with me, but it wouldn't matter, you at least respected that I have some substance to my arguments.
And yeah, the whole "Troll" thing IS so lame. lol As is the whole "eye test" bs.
And also, thanks for sticking your neck out, because the majority here don't like me. lol
Ewert86PC
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Well, it felt like trolling at that point, so if it altered the discussion then it was beneficial despite the acrimonious feelings it may have created. It is easy to use the word too soon, but if you refrain from using it you get the 2016 US Presidential Election.
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The Vikings were one step from the Super Bowl. So, yeah, that was one better option. The T-Wolves are in line to make the playoffs for first time in more than decade (with home court advantage to boot), so yeah, that's also a better option. Women's hockey has been a dynasty in recent years. In fact, last year was the first time they hadn't made it to the title game in six years, so yeah, some people will find that a better option.
You can continue to spout your same numbers until you're blue in the face. The bottom line is that men's hockey doesn't win at a high level and hasn't for going on a full decade. They're often sluggish and uninterested and it's been that way for years. People are fed up with paying to see it and therefore aren't going to games or watching it.
It isn't some kind of conspiracy. Actually, it's very straightforward and simple. But keep beating the drum if you like. It seems to be some kind of crusade for you.
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All I have to say is THANK GOODNESS you are just some idiot on the internet, and that you are not in charge.
Pitino finally has people outside our program respecting Minnesota. I KNOW, I frequent cbb forums where for years, EVEN DECADES, the Gophers were a laughingstock and I endured tons of crap. Well, that crap stopped last year, and it didn't start again this year. The fans that for years were giving me sh1t for being a Gopher fan, were now showing me, or moreso, the Gophers, respect.
You count this year against him all you want, and you know you want to because you hate him. You were bashing him and the team all last year, and everyone was making fun of you for it. Idiot.