AT WHAT POINT DO YOU SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

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Ope3 said:
The Head Coach of the 2016 Season (Claeys) was NOT "handed the reigns" by Joel Maturi. The Gophers were actually TWO ADs removed from Maturi when Kill stepped down.

The Interim AD that gave Claeys the gig in 2015 is currently in charge of the program that has now won Floyd of Rosedale in back to back seasons. Beth Goetz.
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Thanks for the correction in the middle of my rant.
 

Gopher Mac said:
I have been a fan for 60 years. Is it time to move on? I have moved on from the Vikings. I remember the Chuck Forman days and I don't waste my Sunday's anymore. Is it time to also start enjoy my Saturdays?
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You do what you need to do, but this is a strange time to move on. In the last 60 years we are in the best stretch of football we have had. I know it doesn't say a lot, but it is what it is.
 

I think under this current group of coaches, I have seen the best Gopher football I have seen. I have been following since the early 80's.
I also think this team is growing. We are seeing better and better recruits coming in.
Now basketball......that is a different story. It has been since the 80's that we have had a good team, and they cheated to get it.
 


Great Plains Gopher said:
Fleck is a 60% winner, better than 13 previous coaches going back to 1941, and he does it with 2 and 3* players. 60% is an average of about 7 wins a year. If he had 4 and 5* players he'd likely win an average of 9 games a year or better. Recruiting is the problem - why isn't Emmett Johnson playing for the Gophers, to give one example?
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Did you not see Johnson get his ass handed to him trying to block in the Gopher game? Why would you want that?
 

mngolf said:
Did you not see Johnson get his ass handed to him trying to block in the Gopher game? Why would you want that?
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Agree - Fleck can be ripped on a lot, his in-state recruiting is not one of them. There are obvious misses. I read during the Nebraska week that Emmett Johnson focused mainly on basketball until he blew up his senior year and Fleck recruited him as a D-Back.

If memory serves correctly, Zach Evans was in the same recruiting class and I think we were all pretty excited over Evans.
 

rwbPhilly said:
I think under this current group of coaches, I have seen the best Gopher football I have seen. I have been following since the early 80's.
I also think this team is growing. We are seeing better and better recruits coming in.
Now basketball......that is a different story. It has been since the 80's that we have had a good team, and they cheated to get it.
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And nothing the basketball team was involved in would have seen the light of day at most major programs.
 

MNfootballfan said:
Agree - Fleck can be ripped on a lot, his in-state recruiting is not one of them. There are obvious misses. I read during the Nebraska week that Emmett Johnson focused mainly on basketball until he blew up his senior year and Fleck recruited him as a D-Back.

If memory serves correctly, Zach Evans was in the same recruiting class and I think we were all pretty excited over Evans.
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Nebraska was his only P4 offer and it happened after signing day I believe.
 



MNfootballfan said:
You do what you need to do, but this is a strange time to move on. In the last 60 years we are in the best stretch of football we have had. I know it doesn't say a lot, but it is what it is.
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If I am a school like Minnesota, I'm not even considering a coaching change until the college landscape sorts itself out in to some sort of predictable way of doing things.

If things stabilize and you feel you can for sure bring in a coach that is a slam dunk upgrade who can take the team to a higher level then you consider a move.

But right now, as much as some fans don't want to hear it, Fleck provides a reasonably high floor and a minimal risk of a really bad season. May or may not be able to push the team up into the contender group at some point but also not likely to see the program fall to the bottom of the conference the way Wisconsin has for example after their coaching change.

I get the frustration a lot of fans have, but those that are convinced a coaching change is the only solution are going to be disappointed because it isn't anywhere close to happening.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
Fleck is a 60% winner, better than 13 previous coaches going back to 1941, and he does it with 2 and 3* players. 60% is an average of about 7 wins a year. If he had 4 and 5* players he'd likely win an average of 9 games a year or better. Recruiting is the problem - why isn't Emmett Johnson playing for the Gophers, to give one example?
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Fleck hasn't had a two star commit since 2020 and that was a punter. If you want to count transfers hes had a couple of two star kickers. In comparison, since 2020 hes had 19 4 star high school recruits commit, and 4 more 4 star transfers. The last time they got 2 star commits that weren't kickers was 2017, and even then, it was a bunch of dudes that didn't play.

Saying he does it with 2 and 3 star players is not correct. His team is compiled of a lot of high 3 star players (1 or two ratings points below a 4), and 4 star players. Could he be better in the recruiting department? Yes. But is the team running out low FBS quality talent? No.
 

Gopher Mac said:
I have been a fan for 60 years. Is it time to move on? I have moved on from the Vikings. I remember the Chuck Forman days and I don't waste my Sunday's anymore. Is it time to also start enjoy my Saturdays?
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Never. I'm a Gopher fan through and through, memories with family and friends at games, road games, tailgating, etc. If we all judged our affiliation with Gopher football with wins/loses, none of us would be here. And certainly the Fleck Era would be the last Era since Warmath to depart.

All in. Forever.

Go Gophers!!
 

rwbPhilly said:
I think under this current group of coaches, I have seen the best Gopher football I have seen. I have been following since the early 80's.
I also think this team is growing. We are seeing better and better recruits coming in.
Now basketball......that is a different story. It has been since the 80's that we have had a good team, and they cheated to get it.
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Mid-late 90s.
 



MNfootballfan said:
You do what you need to do, but this is a strange time to move on. In the last 60 years we are in the best stretch of football we have had. I know it doesn't say a lot, but it is what it is.
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You are probably right. I remember as a kid in the late 60's asking my dad who he cheered for before Minnesota got pro sports. He said NY Yankees in baseball, the MPLS Lakers in basketball, the Montreal Canadians in hockey, and Green Bay Packers in football. Plus he was always a Gophers fan and they were winning titles most of his life. Those were the good old days before Minnesota got pro sports. You could cheer for a winners.
 
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Panthadad2 said:
Just speculating, but the U leadership is extremely risk averse now when it comes to scandal. The University has an extremely short leash culturally in this market. To his credit, Fleck excels on this point.

Idiot Maturi handed the reigns to a fat ass introvert former coordinator with questionable leadership skills which opened the door for the nasty 2016 scandal. I'm sure that is still fresh in leadership's mind.

The basketball team went through two high profile scandals and has generally sucked since the last one. Stuff like Gangelhoff-gate would never have been reported in a lot of markets, but it's a sure thing here.

As long as the athletics department keeps its head above water financially and stays clean, I'm sure leadership is just fine with that.
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I believe Norwood Teague is the guy we should be upset with.
 

The sky is not falling, we still end up with 7-8 wins. Look at the Big standings, we are sitting 7th with some big dogs of the past behind us! Yes the Iowa game was humbling,however,let’s see how the whole body of work ends up with this young team and freshman QB! RTB!
 

rwbPhilly said:
Now basketball......that is a different story. It has been since the 80's that we have had a good team, and they cheated to get it.
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Jeez, I know the NCAA took our 96-97 accomplishments away, but that doesn't mean you have to. ;)
 

disco said:
Because we don't have enough money to pay them as big time programs do.
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100% not it.
It's where the U is plain and simple and the culture there. Big Time recruits don't want to listen to black horned rimmed glasses wearing folks.
 



STPGopher said:
I believe Norwood Teague is the guy we should be upset with.
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Already corrected in a prior post. Goetz.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

It just seems like we finally get high end QBs (Brosmer and Lindsay) and we have nothing to go with them. Agree. We have like 4 number 3 wideouts but no ones or twos. The tight ends are decent but not good enough to be the featured WR Offense feels listless. The tight ends are good enough to...
gopherhole.com gopherhole.com
 

MNVCGUY said:
If I am a school like Minnesota, I'm not even considering a coaching change until the college landscape sorts itself out in to some sort of predictable way of doing things.

If things stabilize and you feel you can for sure bring in a coach that is a slam dunk upgrade who can take the team to a higher level then you consider a move.

But right now, as much as some fans don't want to hear it, Fleck provides a reasonably high floor and a minimal risk of a really bad season. May or may not be able to push the team up into the contender group at some point but also not likely to see the program fall to the bottom of the conference the way Wisconsin has for example after their coaching change.

I get the frustration a lot of fans have, but those that are convinced a coaching change is the only solution are going to be disappointed because it isn't anywhere close to happening.
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Probably true, which unfortunately gives PJ a free ride to just continue doing things the way he’s doing them with his coaching hires and focus or lack there of on game planning and game day coaching improvements. Part of his floor includes not even trying to win against Ohio State and Michigan and probably Oregon and then an absolute abysmal effort like Saturday being accepted by some folks cause it could be worse. Pretty good gig.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Already corrected in a prior post. Goetz.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

It just seems like we finally get high end QBs (Brosmer and Lindsay) and we have nothing to go with them. Agree. We have like 4 number 3 wideouts but no ones or twos. The tight ends are decent but not good enough to be the featured WR Offense feels listless. The tight ends are good enough to...
gopherhole.com gopherhole.com
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Yes technically Goetz, but Norwood caused the $h7t show that devolved into the mess. Probably took years off of Jerry Kill's life.
 

STPGopher said:
Yes technically Goetz, but Norwood caused the $h7t show that devolved into the mess. Probably took years off of Jerry Kill's life.
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I think what took more years off Jerry‘s life was when he went to visit Jew Jew Edwards’ den of il repute campus apartment back in the day. Took Jerry about one week to send him on his way.
 

Fleck is a CEO head coach. He's never been a coordinator.

For kicks and grins, I checked the coordinators at Indiana and Vanderbilt; two upstart programs that have the reputation of being extremely well coached. Both offensive and defensive coordinators at both schools have multiple years successful experience either in college or the NFL. Cignetti has been more of a CEO type coach while Lea was a top defensive coordinator prior to Vanderbilt.

In Fleck's best year 2019, he had two experienced coordinators in KC and Rossi. Would the Gopher program benefit from better coordinators now? Would experienced assistants even work under Fleck? Do the current coordinators have significant upside? I think to the answer to these questions are key to Fleck's upside, if any, from here.
 

Gopherchase said:
Probably true, which unfortunately gives PJ a free ride to just continue doing things the way he’s doing them with his coaching hires and focus or lack there of on game planning and game day coaching improvements. Part of his floor includes not even trying to win against Ohio State and Michigan and probably Oregon and then an absolute abysmal effort like Saturday being accepted by some folks cause it could be worse. Pretty good gig.
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They almost won at Michigan last year.

As for those complaining about assistant coaches, would you rather be paying ~3-4 million per year for Ciarrocca and Rossi? Their teams are sitting a combined 1-9 in the B1G.
 

rwbPhilly said:
I think under this current group of coaches, I have seen the best Gopher football I have seen. I have been following since the early 80's.
I also think this team is growing. We are seeing better and better recruits coming in.
Now basketball......that is a different story. It has been since the 80's that we have had a good team, and they cheated to get it.
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Offensively Mason's teams were the best since the 80's, but had issues on Defense.

Defensively, Kill/Claeys teams were the best since the 80's, but the offense was limited by coaching and recruiting.

As a whole, Fleck's teams have had better parity between the offense and defense, but neither side has been the best of during the era.

Fleck Fun Facts
(note, this includes the 2020 season in win totals, but I did not include the loss to Michigan as a loss to a ranked team since the rankings were pointless that season). If you want to look at this sans 2020, deduct 3 wins and 4 losses from his non ranked totals:

Fleck has a higher winning percentage against ranked B1G opponents through Saturday's game standing at 27% (6 wins - the most of any coach in a long time - in 23 tries)

Fleck - 27% - (6 wins, 23 games)
Gutekunst - 20% (3,15)
Kill - 15% (2, 13)
Mason - 9% (3, 32)
Brewster - 9% (1,11)
Claeys - 0% (0,5)
Wacker - 0% (0,13)

Of note here - 41% of Fleck's games against ranked opponents have come in the last 2+ seasons (with at least one remaining in Oregon not included in these numbers).

Fleck also owns the worst winning percentage against non-ranked B1G opponents of coaches during that period not names Wacker or Brewster

Gutekunst - 82% (27 wins, 33 games)
Claeys - 67% (6, 9)
Kill - 62% (13, 21)
Mason - 60% (29, 48)
Fleck - 56% (31, 55)
Brewster - 33% (7, 21)
Wacker - 30% (8, 27)

Fleck also owns the fewest percentage of games against ranked opponents during his tenure in the B1G:

Mason - 40% of games against ranked opponents (32)
Kill - 38% (13)
Claeys including 2015 as HC - 36% (5)
Brewster - 33% (11)
Wacker - 33% (13)
Gutekunst - 31% (15)
Fleck - 29.5% (23)

It's important to remember that Fleck also has coached in one more game per season in the B1G than the other coaches (Clayes coached in 9 his one full season as HC), which helps explain the chances he coached against fewer ranked teams.

It's also important to note that 7 of Fleck's 9 seasons were coached in the west, which featured programs whose best teams not named Minnesota were all weaker (some weaker than others) than they had been, at least part of the time, with the execption of Northwestern who has fluctuated pretty wildly over the years. Purdue during Fleck's tenure was not the Drew Brees/Joe Tiller Era Purdue, for example. Iowa was pretty consistent from Mid Mason's term through today, although their offense during Fleck's tenure has ranged between brutal and pedestrian but hasn't really impacted their overall record as much as say WIsconsin's decline. One other outlier in the last season of the West, Illinois was a different team than during most of the previous era (save the one great season when they won the B1G back when Mason was coaching).

So some good, Some bad, but hard to say enough is enough. Also hard to say, the best it's been in forever.

EDIT: PS, look into the facts behind the cheating scandal in Basketball under Haskins. While it was wrong, unequivocally, the scandal wasn't how we got kids into school or preferential treatment for the the stars.
 
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GopherWeatherGuy said:
They almost won at Michigan last year.

As for those complaining about assistant coaches, would you rather be paying ~3-4 million per year for Ciarrocca and Rossi? Their teams are sitting a combined 1-9 in the B1G.
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Rutgers' offense (KC) is decent but the defense might be the BG10's worst. Regarding MSU, I don't know what happened to Rossi. Maybe his defenses at Minnesota were overrated by relying on a ball control offense (which was essentially Mo Ibrahim)?

I don't know if Fleck would need to pay top dollar for proven coordinators from a lower level. What I do know is that the Gophers looked unprepared against every FBS opponent this year except Nebraska.
 

GopherTheJugular said:
??? Is this some movie reference or something I'm not old enough to get?
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No, just mean the culture at the U is woke "intellectuals". College athletes don't care about that kind of stuff. In fact, I guarantee that culture plus the school in the middle of a large decaying city turns most of them off.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Fleck is a CEO head coach. He's never been a coordinator.

For kicks and grins, I checked the coordinators at Indiana and Vanderbilt; two upstart programs that have the reputation of being extremely well coached. Both offensive and defensive coordinators at both schools have multiple years successful experience either in college or the NFL. Cignetti has been more of a CEO type coach while Lea was a top defensive coordinator prior to Vanderbilt.

In Fleck's best year 2019, he had two experienced coordinators in KC and Rossi. Would the Gopher program benefit from better coordinators now? Would experienced assistants even work under Fleck? Do the current coordinators have significant upside? I think to the answer to these questions are key to Fleck's upside, if any, from here.
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You are correct Pantha, Fleck lets his coaches coach and preaches his culture. Confirmed by one of the young players I hosted this past summer. We do have coordinators learning on the job but as stated old coordinators having a rough year so I don’t know if firing coordinators will necessarily help. Let the year play out, still have a chance for 8 wins
 

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