Are We Headed Towards 4 Conferences?

[GopherTheJugular]

The G5 should be able produce two champs that will make competitive first round games. Remember that those will be seeds 5-12. Not Alabama vs Georgia Southern.

I disagree. Last year Alabama would have been one of those 5 or 6 seeds taking on an 11 or 12. Saban would know that his next opponent will be coming off a bye, so he'll want his players to get rest too. So come out early, beat the crap out of the G5 team, head into halftime up 42-0, rest starters in second half while G5 team scores a few TDs late.

Rinse and repeat for the other G5 teams, year in and year out.

They have weight classes for college wrestling, they need them here too. Having a legit NCAA heavyweight go up against a 145 pounder isn't considered fair, and wrestling is smart enough to avoid said matchups. Football should be too.

 

[disco]

I'll defer and admit that you know more about those conferences than I do, which is nothing.

That being said, and I'm asking this genuinely, not as a smart alec, but do any UMAC teams ever do anything, or are they just cannon fodder? Maybe they just get an invite in order to get to 16 teams?

Another thing to consider is almost no one watches those games, so it doesn't really matter who you invite. For the CFP though, networks are counting on having games that people want to watch, which pretty much means no G5 and hopefully no Big 12.

D3 has 32 teams make the playoffs.

the UMAC is 100% cannon fodder. These are all first round playoff scores.

2022 - St. Johns 49 - NW St. Paul 0
2021 - UW Whitewater 69 - Greenville 7
2019 - Wheaton 51 - Martin Luther 7
2018 - UW Whitewater 67 - Eureka 14
2017 - St. Thomas 47 - Eureka 8

True, nobody watches small college football. But people will watch literally ANY D1 game. That's why there are so many bowls. Wasn't it posted here that the Pinstripe Bowl got better ratings than the World Series last year? People will absolutely watch.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

True, nobody watches small college football. But people will watch literally ANY D1 game. That's why there are so many bowls. Wasn't it posted here that the Pinstripe Bowl got better ratings than the World Series last year?

It was the NHL Finals, not the World Series.

As for people watching any game, I think generically that is true. But at the same time, I don't think people would want to watch too many more 65-7 games. The Gopher Pinstripe game was in the middle of the day when people will keep the TV on just to have it on. But how many people turned off the NC game for the local news last January? Or how many just decided they need to get to bed because tomorrow is a work day?

But, I appreciate your genuine responses. Both of us have good points, so I'm not trying to argue in the "bad" way. Just appreciate the banter of opposing views.

 

[Swede]

I believe B1G and SEC are pushing for 5 conference champions and 7 at large.

Why would B1G and SEC push for 5 conference champs? That's one less spot for at large from B1G and SEC.

 

[Swede]

It should be all FBS conference champions, and the remainder at large.
Pretty sure that at every other level, the conference champ gets an auto bid.

It might be that way at lower levels but should it be? In FCS, the Pioneer League team gets shipped off to slaughter in the first round. Meanwhile, Ivy and HBCU conferences don't participate in the FCS playoffs. I don't think a Sunbelt of Conf. USA team should be automatically in the playoffs.

 

[Swede]

And I say this every year. Then there needs to be another official split at the D1 football level, because if they can't play for a chance at a championship, why are the Coastals and Louisiana Techs of the world playing?

There is, it's FBS and FCS. The problem is that many FCS teams have jumped up to FBS during the last 15 years solely for the purpose of revenue. P5 FBS guarantee games might bring in seven figure payouts or close to seven figures for these programs while the same game against a P5 foe as an FCS program will be in the $300k to $400k range. These schools are funding their athletic departments at the expense of irrelevancy in FBS and the expense of FCS football. The best thing for FCS would be for the four or less super conferences to split off, play exclusively among themselves, or nearly so, and limit the guarantee game opportunities.

 

[PMWinSTP]

I disagree. Last year Alabama would have been one of those 5 or 6 seeds taking on an 11 or 12. Saban would know that his next opponent will be coming off a bye, so he'll want his players to get rest too. So come out early, beat the crap out of the G5 team, head into halftime up 42-0, rest starters in second half while G5 team scores a few TDs late.

Rinse and repeat for the other G5 teams, year in and year out.

They have weight classes for college wrestling, they need them here too. Having a legit NCAA heavyweight go up against a 145 pounder isn't considered fair, and wrestling is smart enough to avoid said matchups. Football should be too.

Or, like March madness, a G5 beats that six seed.

 

[mngolf]

The G5 should be able produce two champs that will make competitive first round games. Remember that those will be seeds 5-12. Not Alabama vs Georgia Southern.

Sounds like ACC meeting is still on for Monday, just perhaps not in person? No point in holding a vote if it isn’t going to pass.

And sounds like PAC is going to rebuild (correct decision!)

Of course Schulz first choice is to stay together, that's not what Stanford and Cal want. And Canzano has been wrong almost 100% of the time on thing PAC related.

 

[mngolf]

Why would B1G and SEC push for 5 conference champs? That's one less spot for at large from B1G and SEC.

To be able to say that G5 had at least a path. Congress will get involved if there is no path. So P4 plus 1 G5 and then next 7 highest ranked.

 

[Swede]

To be able to say that G5 had at least a path. Congress will get involved if there is no path. So P4 plus 1 G5 and then next 7 highest ranked.

Under what constitutional or legislative mandate does Congress get involved? This isn't an anti-trust issue.

 

[disco]

It might be that way at lower levels but should it be? In FCS, the Pioneer League team gets shipped off to slaughter in the first round. Meanwhile, Ivy and HBCU conferences don't participate in the FCS playoffs. I don't think a Sunbelt of Conf. USA team should be automatically in the playoffs.

I think it should be. The goal should always be to play for a championship.

And the Ivies and HBCU's could participate in the playoffs. They choose not to.
And I think it's pretty silly that the Ivies don't. They participate in March Madness and the Frozen Four and all the other similar playoffs.

 

[mngolf]

Under what constitutional or legislative mandate does Congress get involved? This isn't an anti-trust issue.

Not being a lawyer myself, but a couple things come to mind. They are affecting "fair" competition and business. And they do get federal funding which can be threatened the way it was at penn state.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Or, like March madness, a G5 beats that six seed.

It's been pointed out before why this won't happen in football, but I'll explain it again:

In basketball, the undersized team (they call them mid-majors right?) performs an upset because they resort to having to take 3 pointers, which if they happen to get hot that day, allows them to beat the better, larger team. They are getting 3 points instead of 2. In football, the undersized team (aka G5) will be forced into taking 3's (aka field goals) while the P5 team scores TDs.

So in summary, 3 points vs 2 allows the cinderella's to have upsets while taking 3 instead of 6 or 7 is why cinderella will never win in the CFP.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Not being a lawyer myself, but a couple things come to mind. They are affecting "fair" competition and business. And they do get federal funding which can be threatened the way it was at penn state.

I'm not a lawyer myself either, but as far as the first point you mentioned, I have a counter example. It's in basketball, but still valid. Remember how in December or whatever we'd have the Big Ten / ACC challenge every year? Did any of the teams outside of these two conferences sue because they weren't allowed to participate? So how would the CFP be any different? Teams can agree to play together, but I don't think they can be forced.

As for the federal funding, I'm not sure what politician is gonna wanna get up and start holding up funding for 60+ schools spread among many different states across the country because App State doesn't have a path to the playoffs.

 

[Some guy]

It should be all FBS conference champions, and the remainder at large.
Pretty sure that at every other level, the conference champ gets an auto bid.

I agree but it isn’t happening

Would also be a way to save the sport from consolidation as it would incentivize smaller conferences (which would likely be regional).


I hope they keep 6 and 6 but am guessing with one of the big 5 disappearing they’ll drop it to 5 and 7.
If they’re only having 5 auto bids they should scale it down to an 8 team playoff.



Best playoff = 16 with auto bids for all conference champs
Second best 12 with auto bids for all conference champions in top 20 in an objective formulaic ranking


The more at larges there are the more it ruins the regular season.

 

[Some guy]

It might be that way at lower levels but should it be? In FCS, the Pioneer League team gets shipped off to slaughter in the first round. Meanwhile, Ivy and HBCU conferences don't participate in the FCS playoffs. I don't think a Sunbelt of Conf. USA team should be automatically in the playoffs.

Pioneer league champion is 2-4 in the first round in its last 7 (last year pioneer league champ didn’t go to the playoff).

Of the 4 losses I would say 3 were competitive and 1 was blowout. The one that was a blowout was against a program that had already announced a transition to FBS and is now FBS.


I guess I disagree with your analysis of how they’ve done.

 

[PMWinSTP]

It's been pointed out before why this won't happen in football, but I'll explain it again:

In basketball, the undersized team (they call them mid-majors right?) performs an upset because they resort to having to take 3 pointers, which if they happen to get hot that day, allows them to beat the better, larger team. They are getting 3 points instead of 2. In football, the undersized team (aka G5) will be forced into taking 3's (aka field goals) while the P5 team scores TDs.

So in summary, 3 points vs 2 allows the cinderella's to have upsets while taking 3 instead of 6 or 7 is why cinderella will never win in the CFP.

Thanks for the lesson, professor. Upsets happen in football. Just last year Marshall beat #8 Notre Dame. In 2021 Cinci beat a #9 Irish team. Boise State. It happens.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Thanks for the lesson, professor. Upsets happen in football. Just last year Marshall beat #8 Notre Dame. In 2021 Cinci beat a #9 Irish team. Boise State. It happens.

Maybe I came off too smug lol. Yeah, those games can happen, but I'd question whether Notre Dame was really the 8th best team in the country. I mean, it was early September after all.

I'll agree that some G5 teams can beat some P5 teams. But once the season has been played and we know who the top SEC and B1G teams are, no G5 team will ever stand a chance against any of those top X SEC/B1G teams.

This is one where I hope I don't have to be proven right - I cross my fingers the G5's never get the invite.

 

[MplsGopher]

If having a (much, much, MUCH) easier time making the CFP by staying a smaller conference was a critical factor, then Oregon would've stayed in the PAC (as they had agreed to do that Thurs night, before everyone woke up Fri morning to find a flaming green and purple bag of dogsh*t on their doorstep).


As for Federal involvement/caring: Title IX is a Federal law that affects every single NCAA athletic department. I think there is plenty of justification for Federal involvement.


Does the PAC conference stay as part of the CFP ownership? Does it still get a vote?

If not, then the votes are SEC, Big Ten, ACC, Big XII, Notre Dame, and the G5. That could swing things against moving to a hard 5-7?

 

[SeaBee_Gopher]

Why would the ACC want to do that? Also, I am not sure how that is really all that helpful to Cal and Stanford anyways.

I just can't see spending millions of dollars a year flying kids across the country to play sports that lose money. Plus, it's not even good for the kids in non-rev sports. They aren't going to make millions as a professional so their degree actually matters. Why make life more difficult for them?

Football is just it's own unique thing and we're seeing it treated that way more and more now. The economics are starting to drive this. My crystal ball is broken so I'm just guessing, of course, but it's fun to speculate.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Maybe I came off too smug lol. Yeah, those games can happen, but I'd question whether Notre Dame was really the 8th best team in the country. I mean, it was early September after all.

I'll agree that some G5 teams can beat some P5 teams. But once the season has been played and we know who the top SEC and B1G teams are, no G5 team will ever stand a chance against any of those top X SEC/B1G teams.

This is one where I hope I don't have to be proven right - I cross my fingers the G5's never get the invite.

So you think there won't be any G5 teams invited to a 12 team CFP?

 

[PMWinSTP]

I just can't see spending millions of dollars a year flying kids across the country to play sports that lose money. Plus, it's not even good for the kids in non-rev sports. They aren't going to make millions as a professional so their degree actually matters. Why make life more difficult for them?

Football is just it's own unique thing and we're seeing it treated that way more and more now. The economics are starting to drive this. My crystal ball is broken so I'm just guessing, of course, but it's fun to speculate.

I think four of the top 10 NIL earners are women on non-revenue sports teams. Yes, that's rare air, but if they are big on social media, their teams will garner a lot of attention and fill venues when traveling.

 

[Some guy]

So you think there won't be any G5 teams invited to a 12 team CFP?

I don’t since the G5 distinction no longer exists.
In the new system if the 13-0 mountain west champion is 12th and the 12-1 AAC champ is 13th and the 10-3 ACC champ is 14th and the 10-3 big ten champ is 15th the ACC and Big ten champs would be left out

Meaning there is no such thing as a power 5 and group of 5 anymore

 

[Ope3]

Under what constitutional or legislative mandate does Congress get involved? This isn't an anti-trust issue.

I assumed that it was anti-trust/restraint of trade concerns that led to G5 teams having a path to the New Year's 6 Bowl Games.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

As for Federal involvement/caring: Title IX is a Federal law that affects every single NCAA athletic department. I think there is plenty of justification for Federal involvement.

Care to provide some? I just pointed out what I thought was a good example with pre-season basketball.

And title 9 has nothing to do with football championships. You mentioning it is irrelevant.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

So you think there won't be any G5 teams invited to a 12 team CFP?

Unfortunately no, I believe there will be some. I'm just hoping and hoping there won't be, but I have to accept the reality that some will be invited in. I just find it a bad decision and I just don't see them producing a competitive game, nevertheless a victory.

 

[Dave H]

I just can't see spending millions of dollars a year flying kids across the country to play sports that lose money. Plus, it's not even good for the kids in non-rev sports. They aren't going to make millions as a professional so their degree actually matters. Why make life more difficult for them?

Football is just it's own unique thing and we're seeing it treated that way more and more now. The economics are starting to drive this. My crystal ball is broken so I'm just guessing, of course, but it's fun to speculate.

That is true but Cal and Stanford get almost nothing from the joining with the ACC. Big Ten or SEC sure you make the sacrifice but the ACC? Stanford maybe to preserve Notre Dame but Cal is spinning their wheels for a sport they barely care about.

 

[Ope3]

Care to provide some? I just pointed out what I thought was a good example with pre-season basketball.

And title 9 has nothing to do with football championships. You mentioning it is irrelevant.

Personally I don't see how the Big 10/ACC Challenge is in anyway pertinent to the discussion.

It had a very miniscule effect on determining the National Champion as well as the overall operating budgets for any of the schools, conferences or broadcast networks. Additionally all the other conferences could set up their own "challenges" if they desired.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Personally I don't see how the Big 10/ACC Challenge is in anyway pertinent to the discussion.

It had a very miniscule effect on determining the National Champion as well as the overall operating budgets for any of the schools, conferences or broadcast networks. Additionally all the other conferences could set up their own "challenges" if they desired.

It was meant to show that two conferences can come together, create a tournament, exclude everyone else, and no laws will be broken, etc. i.e Congress isn't really gonna have anything to go on.

Sure, it has very little effect on the eventual national champion, but that wasn't my aim. Whether it's a small pre-season conference tourney or the end of season "national champ" tourney, if a handful of conferences agree to participate while leaving everyone else out, what's the problem (from a legal viewpoint)?

To your last point, I think that strengthens my argument. The G5 teams could schedule their own tournament and claim a champion, just as D3 does now. There's nothing in federal law that says because a school has an FBS football team that is has a right to compete for a specific national championship.

 

[swede2]

ACC adds Stanford, Cal, SMU beginning 2024-25

The ACC presidents and chancellors voted to add three schools -- Stanford, Cal and SMU -- beginning in the 2024-25 school year. It will bring the ACC to 18 members, with 17 playing football full time in the conference.

www.espn.com

Goodbye yesterday.