Any Downside to Demoting or Releasing Sanford Jr?

it can happen to anyone, though.

  • Did the Packers fire the OC after week 1 when they got crushed 38-3?
    • 38-3 was also the score the Saints beat the Bucs last year by. The Bucs won the Super Bowl. Brady and the OC did not get fired.
  • Did the Bills fire the OC after they got 6 points against the Jags?
    • 6 points against the WORST team! OMG!
  • Did the Cowboys fire the OC after they fell behind 30-0 at home this weekend against Denver?
    • Did anyone call for Dak's benching after he started 8-24? The backup beat the Vikings last week...come on easy call!

These are all really successful pro offenses that laid massive turds out of nowhere. Football's a funny game, and it keeps the bookies in business.
Yep, sometimes they just seem to have ears in thehuddle. The difference here is the baffling attack, regression at QB, pacing problems, and overall strategy.

The offense looks bad. Real bad. It’s disappointing. I would agree with you if it were a case of bad players not executing a sound attack and just getting whupped.
 

Venables has been turning down head coaching opportunities for 20 years. Since he was a 30 year old DC for national champ Oklahoma.
Not everyone wants to be a head coach or a coordinator.
Do you require a list of young coaches who desperately want to move up? It's several hundred names. Or will you stand firm with the argument that Mike Grant wants to stay at Eden Prairie?
 

There was no meaningful difference in Purdue's stats against Illinois. The same Purdue who dropped over 500 passing yards on #3 MSU this weekend. Almost identical to Minnesota's - Purdue just made a couple FGs the Gophers missed.

#7 Penn State did far worse than Minnesota did on offense against Illinois. 227 yards of offense and 23 minutes of ball possession. All those overtimes and still couldn't get it in after Q1.

Has anyone considered that Illinois might have a good defense, in spite of their results from prior seasons?
 

There was no meaningful difference in Purdue's stats against Illinois. The same Purdue who dropped over 500 passing yards on #3 MSU this weekend. Almost identical to Minnesota's - Purdue just made a couple FGs the Gophers missed.

#7 Penn State did far worse than Minnesota did on offense against Illinois. 227 yards of offense and 23 minutes of ball possession. All those overtimes and still couldn't get it in after Q1.

Has anyone considered that Illinois might have a good defense, in spite of their results from prior seasons?
Illinois does have a good defense and they look even better when you never counter what they are doing.
 

Do you require a list of young coaches who desperately want to move up? It's several hundred names. Or will you stand firm with the argument that Mike Grant wants to stay at Eden Prairie?
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. I’m not saying no one wants to move up.
Did you think that’s what I was saying?
 


There was no meaningful difference in Purdue's stats against Illinois. The same Purdue who dropped over 500 passing yards on #3 MSU this weekend. Almost identical to Minnesota's - Purdue just made a couple FGs the Gophers missed.

#7 Penn State did far worse than Minnesota did on offense against Illinois. 227 yards of offense and 23 minutes of ball possession. All those overtimes and still couldn't get it in after Q1.

Has anyone considered that Illinois might have a good defense, in spite of their results from prior seasons?
I said that the week before the game. They are probably the 5th best team of our 9 opponents. But they aren’t bad.

that isn’t an excuse for a bad plan. But it is accurate to say they have an above average defense
 

Got to move on. Sixteen points total.....on Bowling Green and Illinois. Biggest and most experienced o-line in CFB. There's probably an effort issue here. BG is a team with way less talent. Our offensive line should have steamrolled them. They didn't. That's almost definitely a problem with effort.

But the vanilla offense is a whole different problem. Sanford couldn't coach his way out of a triscuit cracker. You have long developing routes when the line can't seem to block. Your best receiver (other than CRAB) isn't on the field. Why was Wright not on the field?

I'm not a coach. I don't know the intricacies of the game. But when us donk fans see it....and it's validated by people who DO study tape.....well....there's probably an issue with the coach. Team could very well be 8-1 right now.
 

Just seems like it comes down to the question, do you think you can do better than Sanford?

Answer has to be yes there.
 




I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. I’m not saying no one wants to move up.
Did you think that’s what I was saying?
No, you are saying "not everyone" -- well understood in case of some older guys -- and specifically that Simon might not. I simply don't believe that.
 

Yep, sometimes they just seem to have ears in thehuddle. The difference here is the baffling attack, regression at QB, pacing problems, and overall strategy.

The offense looks bad. Real bad. It’s disappointing. I would agree with you if it were a case of bad players not executing a sound attack and just getting whupped.
Sanford is staying. PJ says it is a case of players not executing. That is what he told the team.
After all, "We have scored 30 plus points in 6 games." PJ said to shut the question down from a reporter.
AND, shockingly, that is true!!
 

Sanford is staying. PJ says it is a case of players not executing. That is what he told the team.
After all, "We have scored 30 plus points in 6 games." PJ said to shut the question down from a reporter.
Hmmm...sounds like some of these players aren't getting it after being around for a 3-4 years or more. Not elite.
 

This isn’t Sanford’s first rodeo. What’s his history?
 



No, you are saying "not everyone" -- well understood in case of some older guys -- and specifically that Simon might not. I simply don't believe that.
i was asking if Simon was. Because if he was he probably could’ve landed one outside the MN program in the last two years

Some young guys don’t want to move up. 30 year old venables couldve had a number of head coaching jobs as one example.
hell, 35 year old Caruso voluntarily moved down to d3 from being an fbs coordinator.

not everyone has the desire to pursue being a head coach or a head coach at the P5 level
 

The only other parallel you can try to draw between BG and Illinois is something like "they were both home games and coming into them they were both feeling really good about themselves, therefore ... x,y,z"

Probably a non-zero factor there. But who can possibly say.

It is a thing, teams that start to believe in their hype or their headlines, teams that become overly confident and/or cocky in themselves, teams that just straight up overlook supposedly lesser opponents, and that overconfidence compounded all the further by playing at home, to where they get the feeling that "Hey, we've GOT this.", and (deep down), possibly the viewpoint that maybe we don't have to work quite so hard against these guys as we might against other teams. That's the type of deluded mentality that leaves a middling team very, very liable to getting beat no matter the opponent, the venue, or whether it's their Homecoming game.

I don't know if that's the case for the Gophers in either of their losses against BG and ILL, but I do know in both games the team came out flat as a pancake, lifeless, looking not all that interested and frankly like they were just kind of mailing it in.

What is that all about? Your guess is as good as mine, but I believe that we display a certain arrogance at times, and I know for an indisputable fact that we as a program are not even CLOSE to being good enough to just put it in cruise control against any team at all.
 

Sanford is staying. PJ says it is a case of players not executing. That is what he told the team.
After all, "We have scored 30 plus points in 6 games." PJ said to shut the question down from a reporter.
AND, shockingly, that is true!!

Sure, that’s part of the problem. Regarding the scoring PJFs team is on track to end the season in the bottom 20th percentile in the nation in scoring unless he exceeds his historical offensive production against Wisconsin and Iowa. Our schedule is backloaded with good defenses this season. I’d love to see an offensive explosion versus the last three, and who knows, it could happen. Would I bet any significant amount of money on that? No.
 

There was no meaningful difference in Purdue's stats against Illinois. The same Purdue who dropped over 500 passing yards on #3 MSU this weekend. Almost identical to Minnesota's - Purdue just made a couple FGs the Gophers missed.

#7 Penn State did far worse than Minnesota did on offense against Illinois. 227 yards of offense and 23 minutes of ball possession. All those overtimes and still couldn't get it in after Q1.

Has anyone considered that Illinois might have a good defense, in spite of their results from prior seasons?

We‘re looking more at what the opponent defense is trying to do, and what MN is trying to do in terms of design and play selection. It doesn’t have as much to do with whether they have better players on defense than we do on offense, although that’s possible. The Illini are not “bad” on defense. Statistically decent. But, we should be able to move the ball and score more than one TD.

Penn State doesn’t have a “great“ offense this year, but their defense has been pretty good, top 10 scoring defense thus far.
 
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Do you make a change at OC now - No
Do you make a change at OC in the off-season - Maybe

You don't fire Sanford now when the team is 6-3 and in contention for the West title. Love him or hate him he has been forced to deal with some massive personnel issues this season. We caught lightning in a bottle when we fired Smith and put Rossi in his place but what happened in that case was not the norm in regards to firing coaches mid-season. You rarely get the drastic change like the one we saw on defense that season. In general, firing coaches mid-season is not something that stable programs look to do in college.

I won't be shocked if Sanford moves on after the season(by choice or by force), but those acting like there is some quick easy fix are way over simplifying things.
 

You're correct. There's plenty of blame to go around. However if you're in line to be promoted why goes out of your way to save your incompetent boss. Sometimes smart people let things run its due course. Do you think Rossi was so dumb when Robb Smith was here? That's what I like about Rossi. He let it play out and was ready when his name was called. We don't need nice choir boys to have successful organizations. Competent ones. They are getting paid big boy money to do the work. It is business end of the day. What makes you believe that Sanford is receptive to Simon's ideas?

Well, Sanford would need to be receptive to Simon's ideas if Fleck also indicated they had value. Fleck himself wears a headset and can offer play calling suggestions in addition to impacting the entire offensive philosophy.

Comparing the Sanford situation to Smith, isn't necessarily the same for various reasons. As others have mentioned, 2018 they were out of contention for the Division. Smith had the been there for the full 2017 season previously and the 2018 defense had given up 30+ points for 7 straight games (6 Ls). This year's offense while having 2 clunkers, was still efficient enough to produce a 4 Game winning streak.
 

Do you make a change at OC now - No
Do you make a change at OC in the off-season - Maybe

You don't fire Sanford now when the team is 6-3 and in contention for the West title. Love him or hate him he has been forced to deal with some massive personnel issues this season. We caught lightning in a bottle when we fired Smith and put Rossi in his place but what happened in that case was not the norm in regards to firing coaches mid-season. You rarely get the drastic change like the one we saw on defense that season. In general, firing coaches mid-season is not something that stable programs look to do in college.

I won't be shocked if Sanford moves on after the season(by choice or by force), but those acting like there is some quick easy fix are way over simplifying things.
Good points re: changing asst coaches mid-season.
Maybe we just want an unannounced change of game plan design and olay calling duties.
 

I'm confused by all of these threads, pointing the blame at the OC. You do realize that the OC (hand-picked by PJ) is running the exact type of offense that the head coach wants.

If you want to point a finger about the RUTM, use all the play clock, control the time of possession game then ask PJ about it. Do you honestly think PJ puts on the headset before kickoff on game day and says "Hey, what are we running today guys?"

This is PJ's offense. This is PJ's mindset. This is his program. This is what PJ wants.

So fire away. Replace whatever staff you want. Until PJ changes, this is the system that you'll be getting.
 

I'm confused by all of these threads, pointing the blame at the OC. You do realize that the OC (hand-picked by PJ) is running the exact type of offense that the head coach wants.

If you want to point a finger about the RUTM, use all the play clock, control the time of possession game then ask PJ about it. Do you honestly think PJ puts on the headset before kickoff on game day and says "Hey, what are we running today guys?"

This is PJ's offense. This is PJ's mindset. This is his program. This is what PJ wants.

So fire away. Replace whatever staff you want. Until PJ changes, this is the system that you'll be getting.
I tend to agree with this. The offense is 90% the same as it was from the 2018 offense. This offense is less than 50% the same as Sanford’s offenses at western Kentucky. I don’t remember much of Sanford time at Notre dame so I won’t comment on Notre dame
 

I'm confused by all of these threads, pointing the blame at the OC. You do realize that the OC (hand-picked by PJ) is running the exact type of offense that the head coach wants.

If you want to point a finger about the RUTM, use all the play clock, control the time of possession game then ask PJ about it. Do you honestly think PJ puts on the headset before kickoff on game day and says "Hey, what are we running today guys?"

This is PJ's offense. This is PJ's mindset. This is his program. This is what PJ wants.

So fire away. Replace whatever staff you want. Until PJ changes, this is the system that you'll be getting.
You are correct that the philosophy of the offense is Fleck's and he is going to have an OC that follows his overall beliefs of control the clock, limit possessions, and play with a pretty conservative mindset in general.

But within that, Fleck is not calling the plays on Saturday so that is on Sanford, and over the course of the week I am sure Fleck works with the offensive coaches but they are also responsible for the bulk of the scouting done on the opponent and the decisions about how to try and attack them. So while the overall philosophy is Fleck's, what is done within that philosophy is going to be influenced heavily by the OC and staff.

Most head coaches are more hands on with one side of the ball over the other and in general it seems like that side of the ball is usually offense. Mason definitely spent more time with the offense, so did Brewster and Kill. On the flip side I am sure Claeys worked more heavily with the defense during his brief run at HC. Fleck clearly leans offense and pretty much lets Rossi have full control over the defense.
 

Got to move on. Sixteen points total.....on Bowling Green and Illinois. Biggest and most experienced o-line in CFB. There's probably an effort issue here. BG is a team with way less talent. Our offensive line should have steamrolled them. They didn't. That's almost definitely a problem with effort.

But the vanilla offense is a whole different problem. Sanford couldn't coach his way out of a triscuit cracker. You have long developing routes when the line can't seem to block. Your best receiver (other than CRAB) isn't on the field. Why was Wright not on the field?

I'm not a coach. I don't know the intricacies of the game. But when us donk fans see it....and it's validated by people who DO study tape.....well....there's probably an issue with the coach. Team could very well be 8-1 right now.
One thing that keeps coming to me is matchups. I wonder if our team doesn't match up as well as we'd like to think against certain teams. "We" have built our team to line up against Iowa and Wisconsin. Perhaps there needs to be some major tweaking to compete against other programs.

This is just an uninformed thought. I haven't rewatched any of Bowling Green or Illinois.
 

One thing that keeps coming to me is matchups. I wonder if our team doesn't match up as well as we'd like to think against certain teams. "We" have built our team to line up against Iowa and Wisconsin. Perhaps there needs to be some major tweaking to compete against other programs.

This is just an uninformed thought. I haven't rewatched any of Bowling Green or Illinois.
Probably something to this. I remember with Bowling Green there was talk of them running a lot of stunts and what not with smaller/quicker defensive lineman. Illinois runs a 3-4 so also is going to have more smaller/quicker guys on the field in general.

We should matchup pretty well with Iowa's defense and Indiana doesn't really seem to play defense. Wisconsin on the other hand runs a 3-4 so if there are issues there to cleanup they better get to work on it now before we face that great Wisconsin D at the end of the season.
 

I'm confused by all of these threads, pointing the blame at the OC. You do realize that the OC (hand-picked by PJ) is running the exact type of offense that the head coach wants.

If you want to point a finger about the RUTM, use all the play clock, control the time of possession game then ask PJ about it. Do you honestly think PJ puts on the headset before kickoff on game day and says "Hey, what are we running today guys?"

This is PJ's offense. This is PJ's mindset. This is his program. This is what PJ wants.

So fire away. Replace whatever staff you want. Until PJ changes, this is the system that you'll be getting.
The type of offense is not the issue. Failure to make in game adjustments is what it really boils down to, especially in the two poor games.
 


Do you make a change at OC now - No
Do you make a change at OC in the off-season - Maybe

You don't fire Sanford now when the team is 6-3 and in contention for the West title. Love him or hate him he has been forced to deal with some massive personnel issues this season. We caught lightning in a bottle when we fired Smith and put Rossi in his place but what happened in that case was not the norm in regards to firing coaches mid-season. You rarely get the drastic change like the one we saw on defense that season. In general, firing coaches mid-season is not something that stable programs look to do in college.

I won't be shocked if Sanford moves on after the season(by choice or by force), but those acting like there is some quick easy fix are way over simplifying things.
All of what you said. I was wondering if we've reached a point where we will struggle to do some things because we are just too thin in some areas.

We are down to our 4th through 6th string RB's and rarily have our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd WR's available. Is it too hard for the "depth" players to venture too far from the base offense in game? Sometimes you are in a crappy spot and just have to hope you can execute the plays effectively enough to win.

Just more random uninformed thoughts.
 

Right.

What I just can't fathom is: why didn't Purdue, Nebraska, Maryland, and Northwestern just do exactly the same thing????

What was Bert able to see, that none of those four could figure out?? Bert!!! :ROFLMAO:
Maybe those teams didn't have the personnel to do it.
 

I'm confused by all of these threads, pointing the blame at the OC. You do realize that the OC (hand-picked by PJ) is running the exact type of offense that the head coach wants.

If you want to point a finger about the RUTM, use all the play clock, control the time of possession game then ask PJ about it. Do you honestly think PJ puts on the headset before kickoff on game day and says "Hey, what are we running today guys?"

This is PJ's offense. This is PJ's mindset. This is his program. This is what PJ wants.

So fire away. Replace whatever staff you want. Until PJ changes, this is the system that you'll be getting.
If that's the case, then one could imply that it was PJ's defense when Robb Smith was here.
 




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