Amelia blog: After six losses in eight games, is Minnesota in quicksand?

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GopherPlaya said:
Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back and I have heard it out former players mouth.
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GopherPlaya.. A good post and thanks for the insight. I will say that I agree and disagree. I agree about sub patterns (5 in 5 out).. not sure the 2008-2009 team better. The year isn't done yet. Confidence is a big part of it and obviously, players have lost confidence. I think Tubby can be blamed for Devoe "toke about it" Joseph leaving and for pushing Colton out by not playing enough. Also, Paul Carter? Didn't his sister have Cancer and he wanted to be close to home? However, its hard to blame him for Royce White and Cobbs got homesick. Homesick and he is soft so being far from home and not getting a coach to blow smoke up your butt can do that.. Cobbs is now on a team with a coach as old as Tubby and they are not going dancing and they are in a weak conference. Sometimes players flourish because they play against easier competition.. you cannot discount that. You might, but its still a fact that the Pac Ten is not the Big Ten, nor has it been the last several years (which is when Devoe and JCobbs have played there). I would put a lot more stock in comments that come from current players or players that played all 4 years for Tubby (not Monson recruits). Its like asking a former employee who quit because he didn't get a promotion what he thinks of his former employer. What is he going to say? I'd rather hear from the employees still at the company (i.e Trevor, Rodney, Austin, Dre, etc.). I'll also add that of the Monson players, would they have rather kept playing for the coach they signed with? Monson didn't give a lick about defense and Tubby does.. and all of a sudden, D.Johnson goes from 2 pts a game to 10 pts a game and one of the best defenders in the league. Tubby actually got the same players to win 20 games, up from 9 the year before. I do think Tubby has a lot to work on, but I also think he has some tools and when things don't go well, its human nature to only focus on the warts.

Tangent time...By the way, am I the only one that remembers Clem going 12-16 after making the Elite 8??? Tubby would be killed for that. Clem missed the tourney 3 years in a row after the elite 8 team. He also missed the tourney after a final four run..while cheating. I digress..

So basically, despite my tone.. I am agreeing with much of what you say in your post. I do think Tubby can win with this team..but who knows if they right the ship. Its officially now or never time.
 


Rouser said:
Tangent time...By the way, am I the only one that remembers Clem going 12-16 after making the Elite 8??? Tubby would be killed for that. Clem missed the tourney 3 years in a row after the elite 8 team. He also missed the tourney after a final four run..while cheating. I digress..
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The 1991 team was doing OK until Bond got hurt. And no, Tubby would not be killed for going to the Final 8 and then missing the postseason under those circumstances. And if memory serves, he missed the tourney two straight years after the Elite 8 run, not three.
 

Bad Gopher said:
The 1991 team was doing OK until Bond got hurt. And no, Tubby would not be killed for going to the Final 8 and then missing the postseason under those circumstances. And if memory serves, he missed the tourney two straight years after the Elite 8 run, not three.
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I was just. Going to post the same thing that you did, but then I checked and he is right. Elite 8 in 90, no post season in 91, NIT in 92 and 93.
 

XMan said:
I was just. Going to post the same thing that you did, but then I checked and he is right. Elite 8 in 90, no post season in 91, NIT in 92 and 93.
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I'm right sometimes..not often. the 92 NIT was a gift..as we were bad in 91/92 and 92/93. It got me thinking about Clem and his big ten road record. I think that if Twitter and the Internet had been around then Clem wouldn't have made it to his 97 dream run. Which would have been good and bad. Good in that he wouldn't have time to cheat and cripple the program and maybe we would be in a better spot today. Bad in that cheating or no, I don't want the memory of that run erased. What I want is another final four run without cheating to erase the memory of the 97 run.
 


What really makes me wonder is the apparent lack of progress made by the most athletic kids to ever don a gopher basketball uniform
 

I don't feel like quicksand is the right analogy. When I think of a team in quicksand, I think of a team that is playing with every ounce of their energy to fight back, and the mistakes pile up and they sink deeper because everyone is trying too hard to be the one to make the play (the harder you fight the deeper you sink) rather than trusting their system. With this team, it seems to be kind of the opposite. This looks like a slow degenerative illness. Most of the team seems resigned to their fate as they sit back, waiting and hoping for a miracle cure. I'm not saying there is no hope, they just don't look like a team fighting against quicksand to me.
 

Rouser said:
GopherPlaya.. A good post and thanks for the insight. I will say that I agree and disagree. I agree about sub patterns (5 in 5 out).. not sure the 2008-2009 team better. The year isn't done yet. Confidence is a big part of it and obviously, players have lost confidence. I think Tubby can be blamed for Devoe "toke about it" Joseph leaving and for pushing Colton out by not playing enough. Also, Paul Carter? Didn't his sister have Cancer and he wanted to be close to home? However, its hard to blame him for Royce White and Cobbs got homesick. Homesick and he is soft so being far from home and not getting a coach to blow smoke up your butt can do that.. Cobbs is now on a team with a coach as old as Tubby and they are not going dancing and they are in a weak conference. Sometimes players flourish because they play against easier competition.. you cannot discount that. You might, but its still a fact that the Pac Ten is not the Big Ten, nor has it been the last several years (which is when Devoe and JCobbs have played there). I would put a lot more stock in comments that come from current players or players that played all 4 years for Tubby (not Monson recruits). Its like asking a former employee who quit because he didn't get a promotion what he thinks of his former employer. What is he going to say? I'd rather hear from the employees still at the company (i.e Trevor, Rodney, Austin, Dre, etc.). I'll also add that of the Monson players, would they have rather kept playing for the coach they signed with? Monson didn't give a lick about defense and Tubby does.. and all of a sudden, D.Johnson goes from 2 pts a game to 10 pts a game and one of the best defenders in the league. Tubby actually got the same players to win 20 games, up from 9 the year before. I do think Tubby has a lot to work on, but I also think he has some tools and when things don't go well, its human nature to only focus on the warts.

Tangent time...By the way, am I the only one that remembers Clem going 12-16 after making the Elite 8??? Tubby would be killed for that. Clem missed the tourney 3 years in a row after the elite 8 team. He also missed the tourney after a final four run..while cheating. I digress..

So basically, despite my tone.. I am agreeing with much of what you say in your post. I do think Tubby can win with this team..but who knows if they right the ship. Its officially now or never time.
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D Johnson was a FR - most of us could tell he would be a good player with time. Did tubby have an impact over 3 years? I would hope so, however DJ had the skills to be a good B10 player. Tubby's impact on his own recruits has not been so stellar.

Clem also got those two teams to the 16 and 8 - in back to back years. We are in year 6 of tubby and not a sniff of anything.

Bashing Monson in year 6 of tubby?

Classy.

Look at the results of each. Not much difference.

tubby's failure to achieve results = == a Monson bashing.

You cant make it up.
 

XMan said:
I was just. Going to post the same thing that you did, but then I checked and he is right. Elite 8 in 90, no post season in 91, NIT in 92 and 93.
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My memory was faulty. NIT champs in '93! How could I forget - I have the T-shirt!
 



BarnBurner said:
D Johnson was a FR - most of us could tell he would be a good player with time. Did tubby have an impact over 3 years? I would hope so, however DJ had the skills to be a good B10 player. Tubby's impact on his own recruits has not been so stellar.

Clem also got those two teams to the 16 and 8 - in back to back years. We are in year 6 of tubby and not a sniff of anything.

Bashing Monson in year 6 of tubby?

Classy.

Look at the results of each. Not much difference.

tubby's failure to achieve results = == a Monson bashing.

You cant make it up.
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Its funny that you read what you want to read. Carry on.
 


Rouser said:
Its funny that you read what you want to read. Carry on.
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Are you saying your comments were not negative toward Monson?

There is nothing remotely funny about the results of tubby.
 

Rouser
Everybody keep saying players left because various reasons but everybody left because they were tired of playing for Coach Smith even Carter and that is a fact and as far as Monson's recruits they benefitted more from Tubby than any player he has ever brought. His defensive style was perfect for Nolen and Johnson and Blake and Wes were really good spot up shooters for when post players kicked out in the high low are off Nolen's penetration. I have heard it from players mouths that coach smith can consistently drill players who he sees are weak basically tough love without picking them up and I also heard his demeanor changes from non-conference to big ten play where in non conf players feel that they have more freedom and play with more confidence compared to big ten play where every mistake he is in their asses
 



GopherPlaya said:
Rouser
Everybody keep saying players left because various reasons but everybody left because they were tired of playing for Coach Smith even Carter and that is a fact and as far as Monson's recruits they benefitted more from Tubby than any player he has ever brought. His defensive style was perfect for Nolen and Johnson and Blake and Wes were really good spot up shooters for when post players kicked out in the high low are off Nolen's penetration. I have heard it from players mouths that coach smith can consistently drill players who he sees are weak basically tough love without picking them up and I also heard his demeanor changes from non-conference to big ten play where in non conf players feel that they have more freedom and play with more confidence compared to big ten play where every mistake he is in their asses
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Prove they left because they were tired of playing for Tubby. Iverson was the only one.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Rouser
Everybody keep saying players left because various reasons but everybody left because they were tired of playing for Coach Smith even Carter and that is a fact and as far as Monson's recruits they benefitted more from Tubby than any player he has ever brought. His defensive style was perfect for Nolen and Johnson and Blake and Wes were really good spot up shooters for when post players kicked out in the high low are off Nolen's penetration. I have heard it from players mouths that coach smith can consistently drill players who he sees are weak basically tough love without picking them up and I also heard his demeanor changes from non-conference to big ten play where in non conf players feel that they have more freedom and play with more confidence compared to big ten play where every mistake he is in their asses
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Haven't heard that from anyone, but just watching and hearing about some stuff from UK have long believed that as well.

Many tout the tough coaching of football coaches, including Jerry Kill. Wonder what the differences between Tubby and Kill are like, especially considering the Barker incident.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Prove they left because they were tired of playing for Tubby. Iverson was the only one.
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There have been rumors that is the case for all of them, including Paul Carter. I recall JohhnyGopher mentioning that as well and he is as about as connected of a poster as there is. Then the twitter exchange between Cobbs and Damien about Devoe, Cobbs comments about the awful offense, etc. No one is going to publicly bash the coach or program though as it makes you look bad.
 

So where is there proof that everyone left for the reasons that people mention. Like everyone assumed Devoe got caught smoking weed a 3rd time when that is not true all he left because he was frustrated splitting minutes with Nolen especially after the last at mich st when the didn't play once on the court together. Carter sister illness was a contributing factor but not the deciding factor.
 

scher215 said:
Haven't heard that from anyone, but just watching and hearing about some stuff from UK have long believed that as well.

Many tout the tough coaching of football coaches, including Jerry Kill. Wonder what the differences between Tubby and Kill are like, especially considering the Barker incident.
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I think the difference is the players. Kill's guys are just plain tougher. This group of basketball players seems soft, we have heard story after story about their psyches. If Tubby wants to be a tough love coach, great, I love that, but he needs to make sure he recruits tough guys who can take it. Like how Coach Brooks picked the miracle team.
 

GopherPlaya said:
So where is there proof that everyone left for the reasons that people mention. Like everyone assumed Devoe got caught smoking weed a 3rd time when that is not true all he left because he was frustrated splitting minutes with Nolen especially after the last at mich st when the didn't play once on the court together. Carter sister illness was a contributing factor but not the deciding factor.
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You very well may be right, and if it is the reason why he left, then I think that's just as much on Joseph. Yes, he probably should have gotten a few more minutes, but he was averaging over 25 minutes a game after being suspended. If you're in the dog house, then it's probably going to take awhile to get out of it and get your "deserved" minutes back.

As for the Michigan St. game you're talking about, Nolen and Joseph were on the floor at the same time for at least 11 minutes going by their total minutes played.

Again, you very well may be right all all your saying, but remember, you're also getting one side of the story. Either way, Tubby should get some of the blame.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Rouser
Everybody keep saying players left because various reasons but everybody left because they were tired of playing for Coach Smith even Carter and that is a fact and as far as Monson's recruits they benefitted more from Tubby than any player he has ever brought. His defensive style was perfect for Nolen and Johnson and Blake and Wes were really good spot up shooters for when post players kicked out in the high low are off Nolen's penetration. I have heard it from players mouths that coach smith can consistently drill players who he sees are weak basically tough love without picking them up and I also heard his demeanor changes from non-conference to big ten play where in non conf players feel that they have more freedom and play with more confidence compared to big ten play where every mistake he is in their asses
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Rouser appears to be yet another excuse maker.....
 

BarnBurner said:
Rouser appears to be yet another excuse maker.....
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Either that. Or I'm actually not a knee jerk fan who wants blood after every loss. I'd much rather be a fan that rides out an entire season before I start crapping in my own wheaties. I've pointed out several times that I'd be very disappointed if this season doesn't finish well, meaning tourney and winning in tourney. I see no point in trying to throw my program under the bus when the season is not even done. Im just not wired that way and im glad for that. It's obvious that we have talent. It's also obvious we are playing below our talent now. We were probably playing above it earlier. Maybe there is middle ground. Or maybe we should string up everyone associated with the basketball program before the season is over. This program is a lot better than it was 6 years ago but not as good as it can be. I'm more than willing to call for a new coach if we miss the tourney or fall flat from here on out. But perhaps we won't. This is a good team with good wins and we've been in most games. Let's get into the tourney and see what happens against lesser competition. I know. It's so hard to ask for folks who basically use every 5 minutes of a game as a measuring point.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back an I have heard it out former players mouth.
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I hope nobody fell for this nonsense. The basketball program has had an inside snitch for 6-7 years? Least he didn't accuse Tubby of showering with young boys in the locker room. Our Playa has outstanding timing wouldn't you say?
 

howieramone said:
I hope nobody fell for this nonsense. The basketball program has had an inside snitch for 6-7 years? Least he didn't accuse Tubby of showering with young boys in the locker room. Our Playa has outstanding timing wouldn't you say?
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I don't think any of us can judge whether Playa is legit or not. I think it is fair to say that basketball players have friends that they talk to and perhaps Playa is one of them or maybe not.
 

howieramone said:
I hope nobody fell for this nonsense. The basketball program has had an inside snitch for 6-7 years? Least he didn't accuse Tubby of showering with young boys in the locker room. Our Playa has outstanding timing wouldn't you say?
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You are definitely underestimating or unknowing of the pipeline that exists with people who are around a program. I am good friends with a former team manager and the manager network is very tight spanning a good decade, likewise another former co-worker who was on the athletic training staff and he got good info long after he was gone. I'm sure the same with former players or other staff members. Trust me, members of all of those groups (players, staff, parents, sports info, etc) post here. I have no idea if Playa falls into these categories but a lot of what he said s consistent as to what others have said, fwiw. Time to beat Becky Badger.
 

bga1 said:
I don't think any of us can judge whether Playa is legit or not. I think it is fair to say that basketball players have friends that they talk to and perhaps Playa is one of them or maybe not.
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I just did.
 

I don't care if you believe me or not. Your entitled to believe what you want to I am just stating what multiple players have said and it def shows on the court
 

El Amin Fan;657830[/B said:
You are definitely underestimating or unknowing of the pipeline that exists with people who are around a program.[/B] I am good friends with a former team manager and the manager network is very tight spanning a good decade, likewise another former co-worker who was on the athletic training stafstaff, parents, sports info, etc) post here. I have no idea if Playa falls into these categories but a lot of what he said s consistent as to what others have said,f and he got good info long after he was gone. I'm sure the same with former players or other staff members. Trust me, members of all of those groups (players, fwiw. Time to beat Becky Badger.
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Yeah, things have probably really changed since I played in college huh? He just took parts of what others said and/or made up and added the insider spin. Some Tubby Haters are very slick and do come across as credible. The incredible timing gave him away.
 

GopherPlaya said:
I don't care if you believe me or not. Your entitled to believe what you want to I am just stating what multiple players have said and def shows on the court
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You might be able to fool mommy, but you can't fool me Tubby Hater.
 

Ok I'm a Tubby Hater. Do you feel better? I never said Tubby should be fired or bashed him I actually bashed the players he brought in for being to soft to handle his tough style of coaching. Is it a crime to say players left because of Tubby. He isn't perfect, and you can see it in the players demeanors.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Ok I'm a Tubby Hater. Do you feel better? I never said Tubby should be fired or bashed him I actually bashed the players he brought in for being to soft to handle his tough style of coaching. Is it a crime to say players left because of Tubby. He isn't perfect, and you can see it in the players demeanors.
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Nobody is perfect, but it's only a game. When the game is over we all shake hands.
 

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