All Things Matthew Hurt Thread (Rochester JM, Class of 2019)

[Bordergopher]

I love how the final 4 worked out too ! I just think it is foolish for fans to think that staying here is the best option, That a kid will be a hometown hero here forever, That Richard Coffey gets cheered to this day. That is small fish for most these kids. Not that many people even recognize Richard. Scouted and recruited for 40 years and these kids pick coaches that are clearly better by any measure, way more people watch those power schools, way more of a national following. Why should a kid not make the choice he wants ! I do think kids should not list schools that they have no intention of going to. I have season tickets to a program that takes the blue bloods on by developing players and better intangible scouting and beats them. Love it. But most of the best kids in that state never pick that school. They have kids from everywhere.

Your comments make it clear that you are in the “casual fan” category, and that is ok. Richard Coffey is absolutely recognized and considered a Gopher hero by the strong Gopher hoops fan (not just a casual fan). Of course kids can go anywhere. Nobody has said otherwise. However, I’m not convinced the Coach K’s of the world are necessarily better coaches. They are clearly better recruiters. Would Coach K with the 2018/19 Gophers roster have beaten Coach Pitino with Duke’s roster? No way. This is why we are so frustrated that these kids can’t see that it would not take many of them to turn the tables.


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[XMan]

Duke is part of the FBI's Adidas investigation. Yes, there's evidence that they cheated, including wiretapped phone conversations of Zion's dad asking for cash and perks, and Duke saying, "sure, no problem". I don't think the North Carolina defense of, "we let all our students cheat in classes" is going to work this time.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/insid...ing-of-duke-basketball-phenom-zion-williamson

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article220131085.html

Touché. Ouch gopher blue got owned.

 

[alchemy2u]

Your comments make it clear that you are in the “casual fan” category, and that is ok. Richard Coffey is absolutely recognized and considered a Gopher hero by the strong Gopher hoops fan (not just a casual fan). Of course kids can go anywhere. Nobody has said otherwise. However, I’m not convinced the Coach K’s of the world are necessarily better coaches. They are clearly better recruiters. Would Coach K with the 2018/19 Gophers roster have beaten Coach Pitino with Duke’s roster? No way. This is why we are so frustrated that these kids can’t see that it would not take many of them to turn the tables.

So true.

It becomes the old catch 22. If you get the top recruiting class ever year, you win games and keep getting the top recruiting class. I bet half of the posters in GH could "coach" the Duke team to the tournament!
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[go_gophers]

Tell me what top recruit has stayed home to play with the Gophers since Kris Humphries?

It sure seems most all pack their bags and head out. Especially the kids that are recruited hard by the blue bloods.

I repeat: Just because they choose to go elsewhere doesn’t mean they weren’t also considering the Gophers.

Don’t get me wrong, I wish they’d choose to stay as well, but I get sick of people crying foul with no idea what a kid is thinking.


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[builtbadgers]

Your comments make it clear that you are in the “casual fan” category, and that is ok. Richard Coffey is absolutely recognized and considered a Gopher hero by the strong Gopher hoops fan (not just a casual fan). Of course kids can go anywhere. Nobody has said otherwise. However, I’m not convinced the Coach K’s of the world are necessarily better coaches. They are clearly better recruiters. Would Coach K with the 2018/19 Gophers roster have beaten Coach Pitino with Duke’s roster? No way. This is why we are so frustrated that these kids can’t see that it would not take many of them to turn the tables.


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Hardly a casual fan. I see Richard at Byerlys regularly , he is not recognized and certainly not a hero on the level of thousands of other college players if that is even something they want ! Your theory that K would not beat Duke if he and Pitino switched teams means nothing. These kids think K is a thousands times better. Your acting like they are equal as coaches but most people would not think of ranking our guy anywhere near top 50. Quit pretending that your a better fan because your a die hard, blind loyalty in my mind does not make a great fan, it makes one a foolish fan. I would never become someone who just gets pissed at anything that does not go the gopher way or live in some delusion of greatness we have not even sniffed. Just for me, i do not complain about officials, i do not use if, would , could. I go by results of how much you win in conference and the postseason and do you do it with class and character. How do you determine that your a better fan ! Do i need to ask for autographs from former players, cheer all things we do ? Who gets to decide such things.

 

[mkAz]

This thread has become quite the trainwreck.

 

[Tucker32]

Hardly a casual fan. I see Richard at Byerlys regularly , he is not recognized and certainly not a hero on the level of thousands of other college players if that is even something they want ! Your theory that K would not beat Duke if he and Pitino switched teams means nothing. These kids think K is a thousands times better. Your acting like they are equal as coaches but most people would not think of ranking our guy anywhere near top 50. Quit pretending that your a better fan because your a die hard, blind loyalty in my mind does not make a great fan, it makes one a foolish fan. I would never become someone who just gets pissed at anything that does not go the gopher way or live in some delusion of greatness we have not even sniffed. Just for me, i do not complain about officials, i do not use if, would , could. I go by results of how much you win in conference and the postseason and do you do it with class and character. How do you determine that your a better fan ! Do i need to ask for autographs from former players, cheer all things we do ? Who gets to decide such things.

I’ll do it. I’ll decide if someone is needed.




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[dpodoll68]

So true.

It becomes the old catch 22. If you get the top recruiting class ever year, you win games and keep getting the top recruiting class. I bet half of the posters in GH could "coach" the Duke team to the tournament!

This is a very stupid analogy, because he is the one responsible for getting top recruiting classes every year. No GH poster could coach Duke to the tournament, because elite players wouldn't come to play for him. You're acting as though he's the passive beneficiary of Duke's success, which is completely ass-backwards as well as insanely idiotic.

 

[Big Ten Championship]

If this kid gets to 2000 posts he has to completely change his mind. Call Pitino and ask him if he can come here.



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[BleedGopher]

Marcus chimes in:

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Go Gophers!!

 

[GopherBlue]

Duke is part of the FBI's Adidas investigation. Yes, there's evidence that they cheated, including wiretapped phone conversations of Zion's dad asking for cash and perks, and Duke saying, "sure, no problem". I don't think the North Carolina defense of, "we let all our students cheat in classes" is going to work this time.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/insid...ing-of-duke-basketball-phenom-zion-williamson

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article220131085.html

Wait, what? You read articles about Adidas and Kansas wire taps and think it says that Duke paid Zion? That Coach K/Duke, a Nike school, cheats because Adidas may have had a conversation with Zion's dad (coach of Zion's Adidas sponsored AAU team) about money? The only time Duke is mentioned in either article you cite is when they say "Duke Freshman Zion Williamson" or "Duke Basketball Phenom Zion" - where does it say anyone representing Duke was on any wiretap saying "sure, no problem" to pay for play?

I guess I do agree that UNC's well documented 15 years history of directing athletes (primarily football and women's basketball) into African American Studies "paper classes" to help them remain eligible is not a good defense strategy for Duke, though I don't follow how it has anything to do with Coach K.

And while we're at it, the recent $20M extor-tweet from wack job lawyer Michael Avenatti saying he has a receipt of Zion's Mom being paid by Nike has already been debunked as a somewhat cruel but genius hoax by some random dude:
https://deadspin.com/did-michael-avenatti-fall-for-a-hoax-invoice-claiming-t-1834011355

Believe it or not, I'm a UM grad and true life-long Gopher fan. I just don't think the solution to struggling in-state recruiting is to place the blame on these kids for choosing what is best for themselves, or pointing fingers at other programs and crying "cheaters" without solid evidence. Need to solve the problems at home first. Go Gophers!

 

[bizzle22]

Duke is part of the FBI's Adidas investigation. Yes, there's evidence that they cheated, including wiretapped phone conversations of Zion's dad asking for cash and perks, and Duke saying, "sure, no problem". I don't think the North Carolina defense of, "we let all our students cheat in classes" is going to work this time.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/insid...ing-of-duke-basketball-phenom-zion-williamson

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article220131085.html

Did you read either of those articles? Or do you think Duke and Kansas are the same thing?

 

[bizzle22]

So it was a dumb choice by Tre to join Duke. That was the point I was trying to make in the first place, for anyone unaware duke is the worst place to go to boost your draft stock.

LOL. It’s fine if you hate Duke, but saying things like this just makes you look silly

 

[bizzle22]

So true.

It becomes the old catch 22. If you get the top recruiting class ever year, you win games and keep getting the top recruiting class. I bet half of the posters in GH could "coach" the Duke team to the tournament!
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Part of coaching a college basketball team is recruiting. You could make the argument that Duke can get pretty much anyone they want now, but that certainly wasn’t the case when K started there. He built that program.

 

[alchemy2u]

Part of coaching a college basketball team is recruiting. You could make the argument that Duke can get pretty much anyone they want now, but that certainly wasn’t the case when K started there. He built that program.

Exactly. And it takes time to built such a program and reputation. But once you reach that level (through lots of hard work), the recruiting and coaching (measured by wins) can become easier.


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[alchemy2u]

This is a very stupid analogy, because he is the one responsible for getting top recruiting classes every year. No GH poster could coach Duke to the tournament, because elite players wouldn't come to play for him. You're acting as though he's the passive beneficiary of Duke's success, which is completely ass-backwards as well as insanely idiotic.

That wasn’t my point. The point was that once you have developed the reputation and get the best players, that it is much easier to coach (measured by wins). Of course you are expected to also win in tougher games (NCAA late rounds, etc..) which would require more skill than the average GHer.


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[Pewterschmidt]

Duke is part of the FBI's Adidas investigation. Yes, there's evidence that they cheated, including wiretapped phone conversations of Zion's dad asking for cash and perks, and Duke saying, "sure, no problem". I don't think the North Carolina defense of, "we let all our students cheat in classes" is going to work this time.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/insid...ing-of-duke-basketball-phenom-zion-williamson

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article220131085.html

I read both links. What is the evidence against Duke? It's all about Kansas.

When was Duke wiretapped? When did Duke say "sure, no problem"? When did Duke become part of the Adidas investigation, because that would be breaking news?

 

[builtbadgers]

Exactly. And it takes time to built such a program and reputation. But once you reach that level (through lots of hard work), the recruiting and coaching (measured by wins) can become easier.


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Abd you reach that level early with your identity, all the while getting better players but getting more out of them. Every great coach got huge results by year 5. We did a study on exactly how it was done in every program, under every coach. Even before the winning starts the best coaches mine talents not well known, never shortcut character and build in defense in the culture. When you see it, you know it. K learned it so well from Knight and knew the 1st years would be tough but he instilled a identity and then built on that.

 

[gopherall]

LOL. It’s fine if you hate Duke, but saying things like this just makes you look silly

Tre went from a lottery pick in most mock drafts to undraftable with one season at Duke. Name one player in the last 10 years who's draft stock went up from playing at Duke. you can't because there are 0. Kentucky has had several players improve draft stock Duke is not a good place to go.

 

[JimmyJamesMD]

Tre went from a lottery pick in most mock drafts to undraftable with one season at Duke. Name one player in the last 10 years who's draft stock went up from playing at Duke. you can't because there are 0. Kentucky has had several players improve draft stock Duke is not a good place to go.

Cam Reddish didnt develop either.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Putting my 2 cents in, if I was a 5-star deciding between Duke and Kentucky, I'd choose Kentucky every time. Much better record of guys being productive players in the NBA.

It used to bug me when Cal emphasized all his guys in the NBA (individual over team), but I've come to see the light with him. 5-stars want to get to the NBA as quick as possible, and I think the evidence is pretty strong Cal has a lot more players than K that are significant NBA players.

 

[march madness]

Tre Jones was never a lottery pick. He was ranked 15th on 247 site in just his class alone, non the less considering other classes and foreign players.

Tre went from a lottery pick in most mock drafts to undraftable with one season at Duke. Name one player in the last 10 years who's draft stock went up from playing at Duke. you can't because there are 0. Kentucky has had several players improve draft stock Duke is not a good place to go.

 

[Slim Tubby]

Putting my 2 cents in, if I was a 5-star deciding between Duke and Kentucky, I'd choose Kentucky every time. Much better record of guys being productive players in the NBA.

It used to bug me when Cal emphasized all his guys in the NBA (individual over team), but I've come to see the light with him. 5-stars want to get to the NBA as quick as possible, and I think the evidence is pretty strong Cal has a lot more players than K that are significant NBA players.

I agree completely, SS. It's a very small sample size but remember when there was a great debate over who should be the #1 selection between KAT and Okafor? Personally, I think both Cal and Coach K are below average when it comes to actual coaching when you consider what they accomplish with the incredible talent they always have but their recruiting prowess is undeniable.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Putting my 2 cents in, if I was a 5-star deciding between Duke and Kentucky, I'd choose Kentucky every time. Much better record of guys being productive players in the NBA.

It used to bug me when Cal emphasized all his guys in the NBA (individual over team), but I've come to see the light with him. 5-stars want to get to the NBA as quick as possible, and I think the evidence is pretty strong Cal has a lot more players than K that are significant NBA players.

Not exactly disagreeing, but is it possible Cal also just gets guys who project better to the NBA? If, for example, Jahlil Okafor went to Kentucky and KAT or Anthony Davis went to Duke, do you think Okafor would be doing better? Some guys are destined to be monsters in college but just okay in the NBA and it seems like those guys pick Duke more while the guys you know are going to do well in the league pick Kentucky more. I'm not even trying to defend Coach K, I just don't think there's something magical that Cal is doing.

 

[Gophs24]

Tre went from a lottery pick in most mock drafts to undraftable with one season at Duke. Name one player in the last 10 years who's draft stock went up from playing at Duke. you can't because there are 0. Kentucky has had several players improve draft stock Duke is not a good place to go.

what? not that I checked every mock draft before the season started....but I don't remember a single one showing Tre as a lottery pick....and if I remember correctly he was like a mid 2nd round pick.....
Zion Williamson was not a consensus #1 pick before the season....now he is garunteed to be the first pick....so his stock when up...
RJ Barret was rated as the #1 pick in most mock drafts before the season....now that Williamson and Morant blew up he is still going no later than 3rd overall...so did he really hurt himself?
Cam Reddish probably went from a for sure top 3 pick to what...a for sure top 5 or 6 pick....but playing with 2 other studs (Williamson & barret) you knew 1 of them would be an after thought...



edit....here is sports illustrated top 60 from last summer....
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/06/27/nba-draft-2019-prospect-rankings-big-board

 

[dpodoll68]

That wasn’t my point. The point was that once you have developed the reputation and get the best players, that it is much easier to coach (measured by wins). Of course you are expected to also win in tougher games (NCAA late rounds, etc..) which would require more skill than the average GHer.

So your point is that when you're really, really good at something, you get to enjoy the fruits of your success? No sh1t, huh? This is truly groundbreaking stuff.

 

[bizzle22]

Not exactly disagreeing, but is it possible Cal also just gets guys who project better to the NBA? If, for example, Jahlil Okafor went to Kentucky and KAT or Anthony Davis went to Duke, do you think Okafor would be doing better? Some guys are destined to be monsters in college but just okay in the NBA and it seems like those guys pick Duke more while the guys you know are going to do well in the league pick Kentucky more. I'm not even trying to defend Coach K, I just don't think there's something magical that Cal is doing.

I'd agree with this. K and Cal get those guys for what? Maybe nine months? I don't think either coach has a great effect on their development.

 

[alchemy2u]

So your point is that when you're really, really good at something, you get to enjoy the fruits of your success? No sh1t, huh? This is truly groundbreaking stuff.

Then way did it take you so many posts to figure it out?


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[Urbandale]

There was an interesting discussion on a Hawkeye forum a year ago (well, as interesting as forum discussions can be because they so frequently erode into senseless drivel). A Hawkeye fan opined that he preferred signing freshman Joe Wieskamp over Zion Williamson.

Naturally, he was crucified. Zion might just be a transcendent talent. But upon further review, which signing brings more value to the program? Wieskamp is going to be an above-average player for four years. What is the value of that contribution over one year of Zion?

Maybe with those other three years available, you bring in more short-term powerhouse talent. I don't know. I think I would always prefer to err on the side of bringing in the best talent available, no matter how briefly. But it may not be as black-and-white as it first appears.

 

[GophersInIowa]

There was an interesting discussion on a Hawkeye forum a year ago (well, as interesting as forum discussions can be because they so frequently erode into senseless drivel). A Hawkeye fan opined that he preferred signing freshman Joe Wieskamp over Zion Williamson.

Naturally, he was crucified. Zion might just be a transcendent talent. But upon further review, which signing brings more value to the program? Wieskamp is going to be an above-average player for four years. What is the value of that contribution over one year of Zion?

Maybe with those other three years available, you bring in more short-term powerhouse talent. I don't know. I think I would always prefer to err on the side of bringing in the best talent available, no matter how briefly. But it may not be as black-and-white as it first appears.

Reminds me of an article from awhile ago about Bert Blyleven (before he was elected to the Hall of Fame). The writer asks the hypothetical that if you were to run a team and you could have either Blyleven or Sandy Kofax for their entire career, who would you pick? Most would probably say Koufax right away. But when you look at their careers as a whole, it might be a lot closer than some think. Kofax had a historic 5-year span. Other than that though, he was pretty average. Blyleven was good to very good for most of 25 years.