All Things Class of 2020 Recruiting Thread

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jovs said:
Gabe ended up as a good player but he wasn't a top recruit, I doubt you are ever going to compete for B1G titles with only surprises.
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Already said he was not a highly rated recruit but gave the staff credit for getting him. His play was not a surprise to them. They have other guys who are more than surprises. Finding more guys like Gabe is critical. The rankings after the top kids is a farce. The evaluations are poorly done and worse, they change rankings as they see kids commit to one of the better programs.
 

builtbadgers said:
Gabe and Daniel were not good gets, they were tremendous gets. One actually had this as his dream school, even in the face of great offers. Gabe took the best offer as a very under valued player, my favorite type. The balance of the highly rated recruits has had a ton of big time offers and unless they had dreams of playing here are just like kids from other places that do not stay home. Those national type kids, if you did not get the hometown dream or get them early they go elsewhere.THEY PICK WHAT THEY PERCIEVE TO BE THE BETTER COACH AND BETTER PROGRAM. I could care less where the kids come from. The key is finding players from all over that fit what you do, fit with their team. Often that involves finding them first, before others have offered and are almost always under evaluated. We are not going to out recruit the top programs for 5 and high 4 star players, many of whom are way over rated anyway. This staff has worked their rear end off and found many really good players. The job is to put them together in a way that wins games. Out of those 6-7 state kids getting 2 would be a great job. People should remember that getting them does not guarantee winning. Fan bases tend to have unrealistic expectations on higher rated kids, especially if the kids are local. What kids besides the blue blood recruits like the Jones boys went somewhere and won huge ? I count during the Pitino years JP Macura as a serious winner and a miss. Who else that was attainable went elsewhere and won big ? Is there something wrong with finding kids from out of state in that 150 range that have gone on to win conference titles, final 4's, national titles and made the NBA ? Why are people so provincial towards local kids ? Obviously they are really good players but most fans have not even seen them. I talked with two parents of the top 5 local kids about how ESPN forever changed the landscape for kids favoring the hometown school. Combined with AAU travel these kids get exposed to great opportunities from all over. People argue that the best players could go anywhere and make the NBA, that may be true for the top 5 or so but people are fooling themselves if they think certain coaches are not better at developing players better than others have.
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Very true.


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builtbadgers said:
Gabe and Daniel were not good gets, they were tremendous gets. One actually had this as his dream school, even in the face of great offers. Gabe took the best offer as a very under valued player, my favorite type. The balance of the highly rated recruits has had a ton of big time offers and unless they had dreams of playing here are just like kids from other places that do not stay home. Those national type kids, if you did not get the hometown dream or get them early they go elsewhere.THEY PICK WHAT THEY PERCIEVE TO BE THE BETTER COACH AND BETTER PROGRAM. I could care less where the kids come from. The key is finding players from all over that fit what you do, fit with their team. Often that involves finding them first, before others have offered and are almost always under evaluated. We are not going to out recruit the top programs for 5 and high 4 star players, many of whom are way over rated anyway. This staff has worked their rear end off and found many really good players. The job is to put them together in a way that wins games. Out of those 6-7 state kids getting 2 would be a great job. People should remember that getting them does not guarantee winning. Fan bases tend to have unrealistic expectations on higher rated kids, especially if the kids are local. What kids besides the blue blood recruits like the Jones boys went somewhere and won huge ? I count during the Pitino years JP Macura as a serious winner and a miss. Who else that was attainable went elsewhere and won big ? Is there something wrong with finding kids from out of state in that 150 range that have gone on to win conference titles, final 4's, national titles and made the NBA ? Why are people so provincial towards local kids ? Obviously they are really good players but most fans have not even seen them. I talked with two parents of the top 5 local kids about how ESPN forever changed the landscape for kids favoring the hometown school. Combined with AAU travel these kids get exposed to great opportunities from all over. People argue that the best players could go anywhere and make the NBA, that may be true for the top 5 or so but people are fooling themselves if they think certain coaches are not better at developing players better than others have.
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Yep.

Also I think it’s important to look beyond a single class and evaluate roster assembly for the next few years. While 2019 may not have the splashiest of names, it has the look of a dependable foundation as they progress into upperclassmen. Gotta think about how this class will succeed with and support other unknown pieces down the line. I think this class has two plus shooters that are also strong athletes (ihnhen and Williams) and two guys who will at the very least be dependable defensive players (freeman and greenlee) which is an absolute must in the Big 10 and March.

The talent we’ve brought in certainly hasn’t been the problem.





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I know this is about 2020 recruiting, but I seriously wonder if EG writes the same negative outlook about our talent if the biggest local catch of Pitino’s career didn’t leave early for the NBA. The outlook heading into this season would be entirely different with Amir still on the roster, and I bet EG wouldn’t be fearing the unknown.


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bc2211 said:
I know this is about 2020 recruiting, but I seriously wonder if EG writes the same negative outlook about our talent if the biggest local catch of Pitino’s career didn’t leave early for the NBA. The outlook heading into this season would be entirely different with Amir still on the roster, and I bet EG wouldn’t be fearing the unknown.


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It probably would be but you still don't have a player of Coffey's caliber on this team, if you strike out on the Minnesota kids this year you've missed on:

Sims, Wright, Ruevers, Thompson, and Davison
Terry, Nnaji, Hurt, and Wahl
Suggs, Dainja, Garcia, Carlson, Walton, and even Gabe Madson or Crowl.

Thats a ton of misses in those years.

I'm sure the new players will be good, some very good but not winning the B1G calibur, the only way to do that is to get some of the top Minnesota kids. Like you said though if Coffey had stayed and you get one/two of this years class things would look very different.
 


Why do they have to be from Minnesota ? Other programs that i follow very often do not have players from their state and win. UVA did not get a single in state kid in 2017,2018 0r 2019. And that state produces super high end talent. Wondering why they have to come from Minnesota ?
 

At one point, we were interested in this JUCO. Not in his top five.

 

builtbadgers said:
Why do they have to be from Minnesota ? Other programs that i follow very often do not have players from their state and win. UVA did not get a single in state kid in 2017,2018 0r 2019. And that state produces super high end talent. Wondering why they have to come from Minnesota ?
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We don't NEED kids from Minnesota. It is a tired narrative that ignores the reality of where the really top end kids end up going to school in the case of the Suggs/Hurt/Jones types (regardless of home State) and over-values the impact of players like John/Sims/Thompson. It also clearly ignores the possibility that kids may just want to try something different and don't have this embedded loyalty to the Gopher program given they have been travelling the country with their AAU programs and can watch hundreds of games on ESPN, etc. each year.
 

I think the assumption is that they only way we get really talented players is if we can play the home state card, but really that doesn't seem to matter to many over the past few classes with only coffey and oturu the major exceptions. I trust Pitino and his staff to grab talent where ever they can, it is disappointing not to grab some in-state talent, but Pitino can't force them to go to the U. All the gophers can do is try to keep winning, last 3 seasons have been a tournament team on paper to start the year and they are trending upward. This might not be the year to break through with the major in-state recruits but if the gophers have a good year then who cares. Too much emphasis being placed on this in-state class, of course it would be awesome to land some of them and it is clear Pitino has given a lot of effort with them, but not the end of the world either if it doesn't go the way everyone wants it to either.
 



GopherBlood666 said:
I think the assumption is that they only way we get really talented players is if we can play the home state card, but really that doesn't seem to matter to many over the past few classes with only coffey and oturu the major exceptions. I trust Pitino and his staff to grab talent where ever they can, it is disappointing not to grab some in-state talent, but Pitino can't force them to go to the U. All the gophers can do is try to keep winning, last 3 seasons have been a tournament team on paper to start the year and they are trending upward. This might not be the year to break through with the major in-state recruits but if the gophers have a good year then who cares. Too much emphasis being placed on this in-state class, of course it would be awesome to land some of them and it is clear Pitino has given a lot of effort with them, but not the end of the world either if it doesn't go the way everyone wants it to either.
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I agree! I don't care where we get the talent. Pitino has worked hard with the Minnesota 2020 class. Not everyone is going to come here. Like you said, you can't force people to go here. Im not sure why people think that Pitino never gets out recruiting as that is simply not true at all.
 

jovs said:
It probably would be but you still don't have a player of Coffey's caliber on this team, if you strike out on the Minnesota kids this year you've missed on:

Sims, Wright, Ruevers, Thompson, and Davison
Terry, Nnaji, Hurt, and Wahl
Suggs, Dainja, Garcia, Carlson, Walton, and even Gabe Madson or Crowl.

Thats a ton of misses in those years.

I'm sure the new players will be good, some very good but not winning the B1G calibur, the only way to do that is to get some of the top Minnesota kids. Like you said though if Coffey had stayed and you get one/two of this years class things would look very different.
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This is most certainly not the only way to do that.


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Minnesota kids playing on Minnesota teams fills seats... period. and that is the biggest reason to get in state kids.

I hate the words "missed on" we aren't missing out on players we aren't actively recruiting.
 




builtbadgers said:
Gabe and Daniel were not good gets, they were tremendous gets. One actually had this as his dream school, even in the face of great offers. Gabe took the best offer as a very under valued player, my favorite type. The balance of the highly rated recruits has had a ton of big time offers and unless they had dreams of playing here are just like kids from other places that do not stay home. Those national type kids, if you did not get the hometown dream or get them early they go elsewhere.THEY PICK WHAT THEY PERCIEVE TO BE THE BETTER COACH AND BETTER PROGRAM. I could care less where the kids come from. The key is finding players from all over that fit what you do, fit with their team. Often that involves finding them first, before others have offered and are almost always under evaluated. We are not going to out recruit the top programs for 5 and high 4 star players, many of whom are way over rated anyway. This staff has worked their rear end off and found many really good players. The job is to put them together in a way that wins games. Out of those 6-7 state kids getting 2 would be a great job. People should remember that getting them does not guarantee winning. Fan bases tend to have unrealistic expectations on higher rated kids, especially if the kids are local. What kids besides the blue blood recruits like the Jones boys went somewhere and won huge ? I count during the Pitino years JP Macura as a serious winner and a miss. Who else that was attainable went elsewhere and won big ? Is there something wrong with finding kids from out of state in that 150 range that have gone on to win conference titles, final 4's, national titles and made the NBA ? Why are people so provincial towards local kids ? Obviously they are really good players but most fans have not even seen them. I talked with two parents of the top 5 local kids about how ESPN forever changed the landscape for kids favoring the hometown school. Combined with AAU travel these kids get exposed to great opportunities from all over. People argue that the best players could go anywhere and make the NBA, that may be true for the top 5 or so but people are fooling themselves if they think certain coaches are not better at developing players better than others have.
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Great post


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builtbadgers said:
Why do they have to be from Minnesota ? Other programs that i follow very often do not have players from their state and win. UVA did not get a single in state kid in 2017,2018 0r 2019. And that state produces super high end talent. Wondering why they have to come from Minnesota ?
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Because you are not going to get top kids from other parts of the country, I will argue that it's guys like Dekker/Koenig that got Wisconsin over the top, add in someone like Kaminsky who was basically a local kid and you got that kind of results. Tough sell to get a top player from Maryland here, not that far for UVA, you can get good players but I doubt you will win a B1G title without some top local players..
 


jovs said:
Because you are not going to get top kids from other parts of the country, I will argue that it's guys like Dekker/Koenig that got Wisconsin over the top, add in someone like Kaminsky who was basically a local kid and you got that kind of results. Tough sell to get a top player from Maryland here, not that far for UVA, you can get good players but I doubt you will win a B1G title without some top local players..
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In what sense was Kaminsky local? He was in Chicago suburbs. Hayes, whom you forgot to mention from that era was plucked from Ohio.

Also wisco “missed” on Tokoto the same year as Dekker.




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BarnBurner said:
Yup.

And blatant cheating leads to winning and championships. See Tar Heels.
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Bunch of places fill up and win without cheating. But cheating enough to win might work. It did here when we cheated. We were full and we were winning. I hate what UNC did and if they can live with that, so be it. I would not cheat to win at anything.
 

jovs said:
Because you are not going to get top kids from other parts of the country, I will argue that it's guys like Dekker/Koenig that got Wisconsin over the top, add in someone like Kaminsky who was basically a local kid and you got that kind of results. Tough sell to get a top player from Maryland here, not that far for UVA, you can get good players but I doubt you will win a B1G title without some top local players..
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We have some of the top state kids now. Look at where the top programs get players . They come from all over. Different regions, different states, different countries. You find guys that fit.
 

bc2211 said:
In what sense was Kaminsky local? He was in Chicago suburbs. Hayes, whom you forgot to mention from that era was plucked from Ohio.

Also wisco “missed” on Tokoto the same year as Dekker.




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Chicago suburbs are to Wisconsin like La Crosse is to the U from a distance perspective, Hayes was nice but he wasn't Decker, with just Hayes they would not have been a final four team, no way.
 

I know this has been said several times, but the reality is that the Gophers have little chance at a high 4 star/5 star player unless he is from MN. And so far it seems like most of the MN kids at that level don't have interest in staying home. Obviously some exceptions with the likes of Amir and Oturu. But how many kids in the top 100 have made visits to MN in the past 5-10 years? Will we ever have a legit shot at a Suggs or Garcia level player that is not from MN? Not only the lure of the blue bloods, but technology has played a part in kids being more willing and able to go far from home. When I was in college, only 1 hour away, I rarely had contact with my family unless I came home. Now my daughter is over 18 hours away and I text/chat with her almost daily. It makes moving away somewhat easier.
 

BballJones said:
I know this has been said several times, but the reality is that the Gophers have little chance at a high 4 star/5 star player unless he is from MN. And so far it seems like most of the MN kids at that level don't have interest in staying home. Obviously some exceptions with the likes of Amir and Oturu. But how many kids in the top 100 have made visits to MN in the past 5-10 years? Will we ever have a legit shot at a Suggs or Garcia level player that is not from MN? Not only the lure of the blue bloods, but technology has played a part in kids being more willing and able to go far from home. When I was in college, only 1 hour away, I rarely had contact with my family unless I came home. Now my daughter is over 18 hours away and I text/chat with her almost daily. It makes moving away somewhat easier.
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What about finding those guys that you have evaluated to be better than anyone else has and then developing them into all conference type players, that is vital to winning. Frank the tank was way under recruited. So was Hayes, so was Jordan Taylor and on and on. Texas Tech has done this, UVA built a powerhouse doing it, Villanova. Not saying it is easy because it is a huge challenge and i like the locals we have and the attempts outside are good but putting them together to play in a way to win has always been the challenge. I like the recruiting minus the character garbage. I am not giving up hope on the 2020 locals. They simply have great options.
 

jovs said:
Chicago suburbs are to Wisconsin like La Crosse is to the U from a distance perspective, Hayes was nice but he wasn't Decker, with just Hayes they would not have been a final four team, no way.
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Splitting hairs and getting further off topic.. but I grew up in the area between Madison and Chicago not long before Frank committed. Chicago’s suburbs are another universe. As built mentioned just above, Frank was under recruited and didn’t make an early splash at Wisconsin.

I don’t disagree that landing top local recruits is more likely than out of state top talent, but the reality is neither is very likely. Minnesota (or Wisco for that matter) cannot win championships by relying solely on local talent. I firmly believe Built’s mantra applies here. Find talent, skills, and traits that fit your system, and develop it over 4 years.
 

The Gophers have to know their standing in the recruiting food chain. While it doesn’t matter where recurits come from as long as you win, establishing foundational relationships in your home state and region is vital in building a program. So the issue isn’t simply not landing locals but largely ignoring the Midwest region outside of the state the last half decade. Look around the conference, there’s a few brand name schools that can recruit nationally but generally even those schools stick to recruiting their neighboring states. Not only do you save recruiting budget dollars but there’s comfort in the proximity to home and the university for the families of recruits as well as how much easier it is to familiarize yourself with the HS coaches in the area. Trying to do that with families and coaches thousands of miles away when you don’t have the national profile to lean on is nearly impossible.

The emphasis Pitino put on recruiting the Northeast from Day 1 was idiotic to put it bluntly and was the greatest example of his inexperience. While Kimani was here, they threw out offers to Northeast kids like candy and seemed slow to realize that those kids either go to brand name programs, the ACC due to name recognition or close to home in the Big East. The Gophers were left with the scraps that all those programs took a look at and passed on, that’s how you end up with the Isaiah Washingtons, Ahmad Gilberts and so on. The Gophers have to expand their recruiting base beyond the upper Midwest due to a lack of options but going that far away and emphasizing it as much as they did was simply unwise. We see time and again that there’s diamonds in the rough in the region that are likely just as talented and would probably give the Gophers a harder look if real interest was shown. There’s Kerwin Waltons, Gabe Madsens, Ty Berrys throughout the Midwest you just have to find them.

The way they’ve put together the staff and the places they are targeting in recruiting now make far more sense but it’s likely too little too late for Pitino. You look at what Fleck is doing on the Football side with foundational recruiting bases in Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan/Ohio and you are setting up pipelines due to your relationships with the coaches. Easily accessible places where recruits from down there can get up here for camps and unofficials. You start regionally, develop, succeed then you can lean on those East Coast ties you have. Fleck’s got a number of guys with Tri-State and more specifically New Jersey ties on his staff, they aren’t leaning on that until they’ve truly established themselves. Just have to be smarter.

Sorry for the long comment but it’s been on my mind when I look into basketball recruiting.
 
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If I were to put a recruiting board together of gopher recruits it would look like this

Point/Combo Guards
Suggs
Berry
Mashburn
Mane
Mason Madsen

Wings
Walton
Gabe Madsen
Gordon
Taitz

Bigs
Garcia
Murrell
Carlson
Muscadin
Mitchell
Crowl

Garcia and Suggs are takes no matter what obviously, I really like Max Murrell, more athletic big ten ready version of Crowl. Walton and Madsen are 1a 1b IMO for wings. For ball handling, I like all our options, plenty of good outstate talent to go with in state talent on the board

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builtbadgers said:
What about finding those guys that you have evaluated to be better than anyone else has and then developing them into all conference type players, that is vital to winning. Frank the tank was way under recruited. So was Hayes, so was Jordan Taylor and on and on. Texas Tech has done this, UVA built a powerhouse doing it, Villanova. Not saying it is easy because it is a huge challenge and i like the locals we have and the attempts outside are good but putting them together to play in a way to win has always been the challenge. I like the recruiting minus the character garbage. I am not giving up hope on the 2020 locals. They simply have great options.
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Exactly, but those programs that you are referring to have stellar coaches go have demonstrated time and time again they can coach kids up. Not trying to say Pitino doesn’t have potential but he’s no Tony Bennet, Bo Ryan or Jay Wright, at least not yet.
 

builtbadgers said:
What about finding those guys that you have evaluated to be better than anyone else has and then developing them into all conference type players, that is vital to winning. Frank the tank was way under recruited. So was Hayes, so was Jordan Taylor and on and on. Texas Tech has done this, UVA built a powerhouse doing it, Villanova. Not saying it is easy because it is a huge challenge and i like the locals we have and the attempts outside are good but putting them together to play in a way to win has always been the challenge. I like the recruiting minus the character garbage. I am not giving up hope on the 2020 locals. They simply have great options.
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Sounds great, but isn't that what every non-blue blood is trying to do? And Wisc found those type players, but they also tried (successfully and unsuccessfully) to recruit local high star talent. Such as Dekker who was a huge reason for their success during his time.
 

GopherNuts said:
The Gophers have to know their standing in the recruiting food chain. While it doesn’t matter where recurits come from as long as you win, establishing foundational relationships in your home state and region is vital in building a program. So the issue isn’t simply not landing locals but largely ignoring the Midwest region outside of the state the last half decade. Look around the conference, there’s a few brand name schools that can recruit nationally but generally even those schools stick to recruiting their neighboring states. Not only do you save recruiting budget dollars but there’s comfort in the proximity to home and the university for the families of recruits as well as how much easier it is to familiarize yourself with the HS coaches in the area. Trying to do that with families and coaches thousands of miles away when you don’t have the national profile to lean on is nearly impossible.

The emphasis Pitino put on recruiting the Northeast from Day 1 was idiotic to put it bluntly and was the greatest example of his inexperience. While Kimani was here, they threw out offers to Northeast kids like candy and seemed slow to realize that those kids either go to brand name programs, the ACC due to name recognition or close to home in the Big East. The Gophers were left with the scraps that all those programs took a look at and passed on, that’s how you end up with the Isaiah Washingtons, Ahmad Gilberts and so on. The Gophers have to expand their recruiting base beyond the upper Midwest due to a lack of options but going that far away and emphasizing it as much as they did was simply unwise. We see time and again that there’s diamonds in the rough in the region that are likely just as talented and would probably give the Gophers are harder look if real interest was shown. There’s Kerwin Waltons, Gabe Madsens, Ty Berrys throughout the Midwest you just have to find them.

The way they’ve put together the staff and the places they are targeting in recruiting now make far more sense but it’s likely too little too late for Pitino. You look at what Fleck is doing on the Football side with foundational recruiting bases in Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan/Ohio and you are setting up pipelines due to your relationships with the coaches. Easily accessible places where recruits from down there can get up here for camps and unofficials. You start regionally, develop, succeed then you can lean on those East Coast ties you have. Fleck’s got a number of guys with Tri-State and more specifically New Jersey ties on his staff, they aren’t leaning on that until they’ve truly established themselves. Just have to be smarter.

Sorry for the long comment but it’s been on my mind when I look into basketball recruiting.
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Totally agree and I've thought this for awhile. We absolutely have to establish some sort of pipeline in our neighboring states. I'd hoped Jeter would be a big help regarding Wisconsin but so far, no dice.
 

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