All Things 2023-2024 Minnesota Twins Off-Season Thread

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From the Parkinglot said:
Twins PR people are gonna have their hands full.

Win playoff series for first time in forever.

Cut payroll roughly $30million while losing around $5-15million in tv rights.

Product is not available for streaming outside of mlb.tv, so blacked out for everyone in Minnesota.

They let their lovable commentator go to replace him with the radio guy.

Not a great offseason Bob.
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that may be accurate - or it may not be accurate.

it has been reported that the Guardians and the Rangers will receive roughly 85% of their former deals. But - the Guardians and the Rangers had on-going contracts with Diamond/Bally. The Twins' contract had expired, so they are in a different situation.

85% of the old Twins deal would be about $46-million - a $9-million loss. that is probably the best possible deal the Twins could have received. 80% would be $44-million or an $11-million loss.

so I think it's safe to guess that the Twins will lose somewhere in the $10-million range.
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AND - FWIW - in 2022, according to Forbes magazine, the Twins had an operating loss of $30-million. only 4 teams lost more than the Twins. that was with a payroll of roughly $130- to $140-million. (sources vary on the final amount)
in 2023, the Twins payroll was at roughly $150-million. so they lost money in 2022, and they raised their payroll the next year. even with increased attendance (roughly 150,000 more), I think it's likely that the Twins had another operating loss.

and then, going into this season, they knew they were going to lose some TV revenue - they just didn't know how much revenue they were going to lose.
 

I wish they would bring in Trevor Bauer for a very friendly deal. Worst that happens is there is a media shit storm. Best that happens is we have a very good pitcher with a media shit storm.
 

From the Parkinglot said:
Twins PR people are gonna have their hands full.

Win playoff series for first time in forever.

Cut payroll roughly $30million while losing around $5-15million in tv rights.

Product is not available for streaming outside of mlb.tv, so blacked out for everyone in Minnesota.

They let their lovable commentator go to replace him with the radio guy.

Not a great offseason Bob.
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It's pathetic and there's no excuse for most of it. Huge face plant by Joe Pohlad, Dave St. Peter and Derek Falvey.
 

tmvander said:
I wish they would bring in Trevor Bauer for a very friendly deal. Worst that happens is there is a media shit storm. Best that happens is we have a very good pitcher with a media shit storm.
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Not sure that's the move when you're already in the middle of some bad PR.

At least sign Clevinger and Michael A Taylor.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that may be accurate - or it may not be accurate.

it has been reported that the Guardians and the Rangers will receive roughly 85% of their former deals. But - the Guardians and the Rangers had on-going contracts with Diamond/Bally. The Twins' contract had expired, so they are in a different situation.

85% of the old Twins deal would be about $46-million - a $9-million loss. that is probably the best possible deal the Twins could have received. 80% would be $44-million or an $11-million loss.

so I think it's safe to guess that the Twins will lose somewhere in the $10-million range.
-----
AND - FWIW - in 2022, according to Forbes magazine, the Twins had an operating loss of $30-million. only 4 teams lost more than the Twins. that was with a payroll of roughly $130- to $140-million. (sources vary on the final amount)
in 2023, the Twins payroll was at roughly $150-million. so they lost money in 2022, and they raised their payroll the next year. even with increased attendance (roughly 150,000 more), I think it's likely that the Twins had another operating loss.

and then, going into this season, they knew they were going to lose some TV revenue - they just didn't know how much revenue they were going to lose.
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The team is worth approximately $1.4 billion and has increased in value an average of ~$32 million per year for the entire time the Pohlads have owned it. Hard to feel bad about a modest operating loss.

But even if they did lose $10 million last year, and lose another $10 million in TV $$, the season ticket renewal is the highest in 10 years. A $30 million cut in payroll is not justified for a team in a win now window.
 


From the Parkinglot said:
Twins PR people are gonna have their hands full.

Win playoff series for first time in forever.

Cut payroll roughly $30million while losing around $5-15million in tv rights.

Product is not available for streaming outside of mlb.tv, so blacked out for everyone in Minnesota.

They let their lovable commentator go to replace him with the radio guy.

Not a great offseason Bob.
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Dick Bremer lovable? The only thing I disagree with the decision to let him go was that it should have been made at least 5 years ago.
 

Ope3 said:
Dick Bremer lovable? The only thing I disagree with the decision to let him go was that it should have been made at least 5 years ago.
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He was the perfect sideline reporter; a little goes a long way, butI’m also spoiled as Gary Cohen is arguably one of the best play-by-play men there is - he’s no Jim Brockmire, but who is?

Wow the king knives 🔪 are out already, despite the fact that we’re the prohibitive favorites to repeat (having won 3 out of the last 5), that moves can still happen now and until the trade deadline. If only Terry Ryan was still in charge🤩

Can’t wait till the game comments start🥳🤪😜
 
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Ope3 said:
Dick Bremer lovable? The only thing I disagree with the decision to let him go was that it should have been made at least 5 years ago.
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Dumont and Staples hater....
 

short ornery norwegian said:
----
AND - FWIW - in 2022, according to Forbes magazine, the Twins had an operating loss of $30-million. only 4 teams lost more than the Twins. that was with a payroll of roughly $130- to $140-million. (sources vary on the final amount)
in 2023, the Twins payroll was at roughly $150-million. so they lost money in 2022, and they raised their payroll the next year. even with increased attendance (roughly 150,000 more), I think it's likely that the Twins had another operating loss.

and then, going into this season, they knew they were going to lose some TV revenue - they just didn't know how much revenue they were going to lose.
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I would be highly skeptical of any such reported figures. These are private companies and don't have to disclose anything publicly. I'm sure all the people with access to the money have NDA's, so who's leaking this information? I would assume this is all an educated guess by Forbes, as you can get a rough idea with payroll, attendance, TV contracts, etc. However, that's all it is. If an entity is worth $1.4BB and you inherit it, but you have an operating loss of $30MM every year, it's highly likely they're selling and laughing all the way to the bank. When teams come up for sale, it's usually a pretty big deal and people jump through lots of hoops to buy in. Really rich (assuming because you're good at business) people don't fall over themselves to buy things (or hold onto inherited assets) that lose them money.
 



howeda7 said:
The team is worth approximately $1.4 billion and has increased in value an average of ~$32 million per year for the entire time the Pohlads have owned it. Hard to feel bad about a modest operating loss.

But even if they did lose $10 million last year, and lose another $10 million in TV $$, the season ticket renewal is the highest in 10 years. A $30 million cut in payroll is not justified for a team in a win now window.
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I'm not sure the point was that we should feel bad for them losing money. The point is most organizations turn a profit. The Twins have been willing to lose money at times. Even the Yankees and Dodgers rarely do that. They just have so much more revenue coming in. Most years the Twins are in the top 10 in percent of revenue spent on salary.

I'm not saying they shouldn't spend more at times. I certainly wish they would. But there's this incorrect notion that the Twins are cheap and other teams aren't. If people consider the Twins cheap, then almost every other organization is too. The revenue coming in from team to team is vastly different.

It was mentioned here before about the possibility of some kind of local tv revenue sharing. I think that would level the playing field a bit. But would also need some kind of salary floor if that were to happen IMO.
 

forever a gopher said:
I would be highly skeptical of any such reported figures. These are private companies and don't have to disclose anything publicly. I'm sure all the people with access to the money have NDA's, so who's leaking this information? I would assume this is all an educated guess by Forbes, as you can get a rough idea with payroll, attendance, TV contracts, etc. However, that's all it is. If an entity is worth $1.4BB and you inherit it, but you have an operating loss of $30MM every year, it's highly likely they're selling and laughing all the way to the bank. When teams come up for sale, it's usually a pretty big deal and people jump through lots of hoops to buy in. Really rich (assuming because you're good at business) people don't fall over themselves to buy things (or hold onto inherited assets) that lose them money.
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I'm almost certain there's some estimating but I doubt it's just made up out of thin air either. The $30M loss was just for one year, not every year. The season before said they profited $10M.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I'm not sure the point was that we should feel bad for them losing money. The point is most organizations turn a profit. The Twins have been willing to lose money at times. Even the Yankees and Dodgers rarely do that. They just have so much more revenue coming in. Most years the Twins are in the top 10 in percent of revenue spent on salary.

I'm not saying they shouldn't spend more at times. I certainly wish they would. But there's this incorrect notion that the Twins are cheap and other teams aren't. If people consider the Twins cheap, then almost every other organization is too. The revenue coming in from team to team is vastly different.

It was mentioned here before about the possibility of some kind of local tv revenue sharing. I think that would level the playing field a bit. But would also need some kind of salary floor if that were to happen IMO.
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I don't expect them to lose big $$ year after year, but I don't buy that they lose $30 million or anything close to it regularly. They may have in 2021/2022 due to Covid/attendance issues.

They get about $100 million in national media rights, $50 million in local TV/radio and conservatively $100 million from in stadium revenue from ~2 million fans. Even at their self-professed standard of 50% of revenue being the payroll target, $125 million is the absolute minimum break even point but it is likely higher than that.
 

howeda7 said:
I don't expect them to lose big $$ year after year, but I don't buy that they lose $30 million or anything close to it regularly. They may have in 2021/2022 due to Covid/attendance issues.

They get about $100 million in national media rights, $50 million in local TV/radio and conservatively $100 million from in stadium revenue from ~2 million fans. Even at their self-professed standard of 50% of revenue being the payroll target, $125 million is the absolute minimum break even point but it is likely higher than that.
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They don’t lose big every year but they definitely aren’t raking in a bunch of money either.

The offseason isn’t over yet either so we’ll see what happens.
 





GophersInIowa said:
They don’t lose big every year but they definitely aren’t raking in a bunch of money either.

The offseason isn’t over yet either so we’ll see what happens.
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It's not, but they sure went from "we finally won a play-off series, the future is bright" to stepping on every rake possible. Crying poor two days into the off-season all the way through the disaster TV situation.
 



howeda7 said:
It's not, but they sure went from "we finally won a play-off series, the future is bright" to stepping on every rake possible. Crying poor two days into the off-season all the way through the disaster TV situation.
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Wasn’t the TV situation beyond their control?

Do they not operate on a budget like every other business?

If 25-33% of your income was in flux, wouldn’t you be more conservative in your spending?
 
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
Wasn’t the TV situation beyond their control?
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Not really. The Padres didn't go crawling back to Diamond. The Rockies TV partner went completely out of business. They both figured how to make their games available.

The Twins chose to sit on their thumbs and then take what they could get from the loser bankrupt company they told to F off 6 months ago. As far as I know, they're the only team who's contract had fully ended that went back and said "more please." In the Guardians and Rangers case Diamond was the one trying to get out of it.
Gopher_In_NYC said:
Do they not operate on a budget like every other business?
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They do, but many sports team owners don't and care more about winning than the profit margin. Not the Pohlads. I'm not saying they should lose their shirts. If you're losing $10 million in TV $ and cut $10 million in payroll OK. But cutting payroll $30 million sucks and is not necessary.

Gopher_In_NYC said:
If 25-33% of your income was in flux, wouldn’t you be more conservative in your spending?
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It's not 25-33% of their income. They bring in $250 million + in revenue per year. Of that $10-$15 million was in jeopardy. You don't cut payroll that severely when you're the favorite in a bad division. Pinch your pennies when you're in a down cycle.
 
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howeda7 said:
Not really. The Padres didn't go crawling back to Diamond. The Rockies TV partner went completely out of business. They both figured how to make their games available.

The Twins chose to sit on their thumbs and then take what they could get from the loser bankrupt company they told to F off 6 months ago. As far as I know, they're the only team who's contract had fully ended that went back and said "more please." In the Guardians and Rangers case Diamond was the one trying to get out of it.

They do, but many sports team owners don't and care more about winning than the profit margin. Not the Pohlads. I'm not saying they should lose their shirts. If you're losing $10 million in TV $ and cut $10 million in payroll OK. But cutting payroll $30 million sucks and is not necessary.


It's not 25-33% of their income. They bring in $250 million + in revenue per year. Of that $10-$15 million was in jeopardy. You don't cut payroll that severely when you're the favorite in a bad division. Pinch your pennies when you're in a down cycle.
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Can you give examples? I don't think this happens nearly as much as you think.
 

The Twins are not the only team dealing with these issues.

saw this quote from Josh Hader, discussing why he didn't sign with the Texas Rangers (the defending World Series champs)

He also talked about which teams were pursuing him and why he eschewed conventional wisdom and signed with Houston over Texas.
"Yeah, I mean I think that was the biggest thing for them (Texas) was the TV deal. Obviously I'm not behind their finances or anything like that, but that's what was stopping them from making moves I guess.
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and ESPN chimes in with a story on how the uncertainty over local TV revenue has impacted the off-season.

This has triggered an uncertainty that some teams point to -- with strong pushback from player agents and union officials -- as a primary reason for their payroll constraints.

There are the handful of big-market clubs with secure television contracts and major spending power -- and then, with some exceptions, there's everybody else.

"When you have a seismic interruption in the market," an industry source said, "the weaker [teams] feel it first."

Their financial situations are vastly different -- and none of them will open their books -- but all of the aforementioned teams have publicly or privately pointed to uncertainty with their TV revenue as at least part of the reason for reductions in spending.

The Mariners subsequently shed more than $40 million in player salaries this offseason, at a time when many believe they should be adding.

 

GophersInIowa said:
Can you give examples? I don't think this happens nearly as much as you think.
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It's mostly in MLB because the other leagues have salary caps. The Tigers did it before Illich died. I believe ve the Braves and Nats both incurred losses winning the World Series in recent years. The Marlins back in the day.
 

howeda7 said:
It's mostly in MLB because the other leagues have salary caps. The Tigers did it before Illich died. I believe ve the Braves and Nats both incurred losses winning the World Series in recent years. The Marlins back in the day.
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Increasing salary doesn't mean they lost a bunch of money. The Braves had the 10th highest payroll in 2021. I don't think they were in the red. The Nats might be a good example. The Tigers and Marlins were awhile ago. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The Mets did it last year too. I'm just saying I don't think it's very common. The majority of organizations float around the break even mark, even the very successful ones.

Fans have this belief that the successful teams are just throwing money out there and the Twins are one of the few that don't. It's actually that those teams have more money coming in to begin with that gives them the advantage.
 

howeda7 said:
Not really. The Padres didn't go crawling back to Diamond. The Rockies TV partner went completely out of business. They both figured how to make their games available.

The Twins chose to sit on their thumbs and then take what they could get from the loser bankrupt company they told to F off 6 months ago. As far as I know, they're the only team who's contract had fully ended that went back and said "more please." In the Guardians and Rangers case Diamond was the one trying to get out of it.

They do, but many sports team owners don't and care more about winning than the profit margin. Not the Pohlads. I'm not saying they should lose their shirts. If you're losing $10 million in TV $ and cut $10 million in payroll OK. But cutting payroll $30 million sucks and is not necessary.


It's not 25-33% of their income. They bring in $250 million + in revenue per year. Of that $10-$15 million was in jeopardy. You don't cut payroll that severely when you're the favorite in a bad division. Pinch your pennies when you're in a down cycle.
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Thanks for sharing😃

Most importantly, in my opinion -

E
N
J
O
Y

T
H
E

S
E
A
S
O
N

I’m at the point in my life, where there are fewer seasons in my future, than in my past.
 
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
Thanks for sharing😃

Most importantly, in my opinion -

E
N
J
O
Y

T
H
E

S
E
A
S
O
N

I’m at the point in my life, where there are fewer seasons in my future, than in my past.
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I personally would like to think I am going to live until 109 to fulfill more seasons in my future than in my past.

Odds aren't great though, but one can hope.
 

Ope3 said:
I personally would like to think I am going to live until 109 to fulfill more seasons in my future than in my past.

Odds aren't great though, but one can hope.
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Let me know how that works out for you!

Red meat everyday?
 
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