All Things 2021 Minnesota Vikings In-Season Thread

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PA is having a rough 2021. He guaranteed that Rodgers would never play for the Pack and then this latest boner.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Looking back at Carlson is just 20/20 hindsight, revisionist history, whatever you want to call it. In his time with the Vikings, Carlson had a glitch (for lack of a better way to put it) in his swing and he didn't go back and look at the tape and dig into it until the Vikings had cut him. He used his time between the Vikings dumping him and Raiders signing him to do his homework, talk to his old coach, look at his Auburn tape, and get his shit together.

Would all that have happened with the Vikings? I would imagine at some point but who knows when? I'm not saying it was the right move to dump him but at the end of the day, while he was with the Vikings he was not right.

It happens sometimes; I would imagine the Vikings at some point have capitalized on someone that was cut by another team and they resurrected them, just can't immediately think of an example off the top of my head.
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He was 16 of 17 on field goals and 18 of 18 for extra points in 2018 for Oakland immediately after the Vikings cut him. Maybe you shouldn’t cut a kicker you drafted in the 5th bleeping round after he had 1 bad game for the organization. If that’s the case there is no reason to keep Joseph after Sunday as he was signed as a free agent.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Looking back at Carlson is just 20/20 hindsight, revisionist history, whatever you want to call it. In his time with the Vikings, Carlson had a glitch (for lack of a better way to put it) in his swing and he didn't go back and look at the tape and dig into it until the Vikings had cut him. He used his time between the Vikings dumping him and Raiders signing him to do his homework, talk to his old coach, look at his Auburn tape, and get his shit together.

Would all that have happened with the Vikings? I would imagine at some point but who knows when? I'm not saying it was the right move to dump him but at the end of the day, while he was with the Vikings he was not right.

It happens sometimes; I would imagine the Vikings at some point have capitalized on someone that was cut by another team and they resurrected them, just can't immediately think of an example off the top of my head.
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Longwell was good, but the Vikings didn't need to fix him.
 

Souhan nailed it, good for him:


The Vikings fan blaming losses on missed field goals is like a New Orleans resident blaming floods on a leaky faucet.

Kickers aren't the Vikings' problem.

Kickers are the Vikings' toupee.

When Greg Joseph missed a 37-yard field goal as time ran out in the Vikings' 34-33 loss at Arizona on Sunday, he joined a pantheon of kickers who failed to deliver a victory in the clutch.

Joseph failed in that moment. That's a fact. What's worse than him failing is him becoming a symbol of the Vikings' failures, letting more important and higher-paid employees off the hook.

We've seen this before. Gary Anderson did not miss a field goal in 1998 until the NFC Championship Game. He, too, became a symbol of that team's failures, obscuring mistakes made by actual football players.

When Anderson missed that field goal, he helped fans forget that Robert Smith ran out of bounds when trying to kill the clock, and that Randall Cunningham held the ball too long on a strip sack that changed the game, and that Randy Moss seemed to lose interest, and that the defense was shredded by injuries and couldn't stop the run or hassle a non-legendary quarterback in Chris Chandler, or that Denny Green had Cunningham take a knee at the end of regulation even though explosiveness and creativity was their greatest strength and Atlanta's defense was hurting.

But, sure, blame the kicker for missing one field goal.

Similarly, Joseph's loss obscured other failures.

The Vikings were running at will. Kirk Cousins had been efficient and had not turned the ball over all game — and still hasn't turned over the ball all season.

The Vikings offensive line was having a great day in the running game and had improved vastly over Week 1 in pass blocking. The Vikings have two star receivers to go with their all-world running back.

So why did coach Mike Zimmer run about 40 seconds off the clock and settle for a 37-yard-field goal from an inexperienced kicker? An experienced quarterback and star running back might have scored a touchdown, or made the field goal a chip shot.

Cousins' stat line is gaudy, but in a game in which he had the advantage of a great running game and good protection, he produced three offensive points in the second half.

Justin Jefferson, the wonderful second-year receiver, dropped a long Cousins pass down the sideline.

The Vikings' defense, even with Danielle Hunter playing like his old self, allowed 34 points.

But, sure, blame the kicker.

In sports as in politics and business, always follow the money.

The Vikings have decided to pay a lot of talented players a lot of money, and they have routinely overspent in relation to production.

Anthony Barr may be a good player, but he was a bad signing. This is the second season in a row in which his injury replacement — Eric Wilson in 2020 and Nick Vigil this year — has made more pivotal plays than we're accustomed to Barr making.

Harrison Smith just signed another big deal, and he is making few pivotal plays.

Then there is Cousins, The Illusionist. He is one of the highest-paid quarterbacks in the league. He is surrounded with skill position talent. Sunday, his offensive line played well. He produced zero offensive touchdowns in the second half of a wide-open game.

His record in Washington: 26-30-1. His record in Minnesota, starting with a season that followed a 13-3 Vikings season: 25-23-1. Career record: 51-53-2. That's what the Vikings are paying $33 million a year for.

Star players are on the field for 50 to 70 plays a game. Coaches spend all week devising schemes and plays and make hundreds of decisions during the game. Kickers jog onto the field and swing their leg a few times a game.

There is a cure for this problem: Deemphasize kicking.

There is no way a field goal should be half as valuable as a touchdown. There is no way an extra point should be half as valuable as a two-point attempt.

Kicking should be a desperate, end-of-half, tiebreaking stratagem, not an accepted feature of modern football.

But then Vikings fans would have to blame their favorite players, not their kicking temp, when they lose.
 

MplsGopher said:
Souhan nailed it, good for him:


The Vikings fan blaming losses on missed field goals is like a New Orleans resident blaming floods on a leaky faucet.

Kickers aren't the Vikings' problem.

Kickers are the Vikings' toupee.

When Greg Joseph missed a 37-yard field goal as time ran out in the Vikings' 34-33 loss at Arizona on Sunday, he joined a pantheon of kickers who failed to deliver a victory in the clutch.

Joseph failed in that moment. That's a fact. What's worse than him failing is him becoming a symbol of the Vikings' failures, letting more important and higher-paid employees off the hook.

We've seen this before. Gary Anderson did not miss a field goal in 1998 until the NFC Championship Game. He, too, became a symbol of that team's failures, obscuring mistakes made by actual football players.

When Anderson missed that field goal, he helped fans forget that Robert Smith ran out of bounds when trying to kill the clock, and that Randall Cunningham held the ball too long on a strip sack that changed the game, and that Randy Moss seemed to lose interest, and that the defense was shredded by injuries and couldn't stop the run or hassle a non-legendary quarterback in Chris Chandler, or that Denny Green had Cunningham take a knee at the end of regulation even though explosiveness and creativity was their greatest strength and Atlanta's defense was hurting.

But, sure, blame the kicker for missing one field goal.

Similarly, Joseph's loss obscured other failures.

The Vikings were running at will. Kirk Cousins had been efficient and had not turned the ball over all game — and still hasn't turned over the ball all season.

The Vikings offensive line was having a great day in the running game and had improved vastly over Week 1 in pass blocking. The Vikings have two star receivers to go with their all-world running back.

So why did coach Mike Zimmer run about 40 seconds off the clock and settle for a 37-yard-field goal from an inexperienced kicker? An experienced quarterback and star running back might have scored a touchdown, or made the field goal a chip shot.

Cousins' stat line is gaudy, but in a game in which he had the advantage of a great running game and good protection, he produced three offensive points in the second half.

Justin Jefferson, the wonderful second-year receiver, dropped a long Cousins pass down the sideline.

The Vikings' defense, even with Danielle Hunter playing like his old self, allowed 34 points.

But, sure, blame the kicker.

In sports as in politics and business, always follow the money.

The Vikings have decided to pay a lot of talented players a lot of money, and they have routinely overspent in relation to production.

Anthony Barr may be a good player, but he was a bad signing. This is the second season in a row in which his injury replacement — Eric Wilson in 2020 and Nick Vigil this year — has made more pivotal plays than we're accustomed to Barr making.

Harrison Smith just signed another big deal, and he is making few pivotal plays.

Then there is Cousins, The Illusionist. He is one of the highest-paid quarterbacks in the league. He is surrounded with skill position talent. Sunday, his offensive line played well. He produced zero offensive touchdowns in the second half of a wide-open game.

His record in Washington: 26-30-1. His record in Minnesota, starting with a season that followed a 13-3 Vikings season: 25-23-1. Career record: 51-53-2. That's what the Vikings are paying $33 million a year for.

Star players are on the field for 50 to 70 plays a game. Coaches spend all week devising schemes and plays and make hundreds of decisions during the game. Kickers jog onto the field and swing their leg a few times a game.

There is a cure for this problem: Deemphasize kicking.

There is no way a field goal should be half as valuable as a touchdown. There is no way an extra point should be half as valuable as a two-point attempt.

Kicking should be a desperate, end-of-half, tiebreaking stratagem, not an accepted feature of modern football.

But then Vikings fans would have to blame their favorite players, not their kicking temp, when they lose.
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While I'm in agreement that more goes into a loss than a missed kick I'm going to be the first to defend Cousins after this one. The guy was 22-32 with 3 TD's, 0 picks, and had like 35 yards rushing. If the argument is we can't point the finger at the kicker he should be at the bottom of the list of who it can be pointed at.
 


The Vikings drafted 11 players in 2021. Not a single player we drafted played on offense or defense on Sunday. Only on Special Teams.

0/11.

Do we fire Spielman and Zimmer now or later today?
 

TruthSeeker said:
As of today would you go over or under 7 wins for the Vikings this year?
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The Vikings have started the season 0-2 10 times the past 40 years. Average record in those years? 6-10. Give me the under all day, even with the added game.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
It happens sometimes; I would imagine the Vikings at some point have capitalized on someone that was cut by another team and they resurrected them, just can't immediately think of an example off the top of my head.
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You serious, Clark?
 

MplsGopher said:
Souhan nailed it, good for him:


The Vikings fan blaming losses on missed field goals is like a New Orleans resident blaming floods on a leaky faucet.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. The fact is that the offense did more than enough throughout the game. And they drove down the field in the final couple of minutes and put Joseph in position to win the game with a very makeable FG. Yesterday the Power Trip found that from that distance.....88% are made. There's no excuse for missing that. Not to mention that we lost by one point and Joseph had missed an extra point earlier in the game.

Point is that to beat a very good team like the Cardinals.....you have to play a great game with limited mistakes. Joseph made two extremely costly errors. Breeland is the only other player that deserves equal grief.
 




MplsGopher said:
Souhan nailed it, good for him:


The Vikings fan blaming losses on missed field goals is like a New Orleans resident blaming floods on a leaky faucet.

Kickers aren't the Vikings' problem.

Kickers are the Vikings' toupee.

When Greg Joseph missed a 37-yard field goal as time ran out in the Vikings' 34-33 loss at Arizona on Sunday, he joined a pantheon of kickers who failed to deliver a victory in the clutch.

Joseph failed in that moment. That's a fact. What's worse than him failing is him becoming a symbol of the Vikings' failures, letting more important and higher-paid employees off the hook.

We've seen this before. Gary Anderson did not miss a field goal in 1998 until the NFC Championship Game. He, too, became a symbol of that team's failures, obscuring mistakes made by actual football players.

When Anderson missed that field goal, he helped fans forget that Robert Smith ran out of bounds when trying to kill the clock, and that Randall Cunningham held the ball too long on a strip sack that changed the game, and that Randy Moss seemed to lose interest, and that the defense was shredded by injuries and couldn't stop the run or hassle a non-legendary quarterback in Chris Chandler, or that Denny Green had Cunningham take a knee at the end of regulation even though explosiveness and creativity was their greatest strength and Atlanta's defense was hurting.

But, sure, blame the kicker for missing one field goal.

Similarly, Joseph's loss obscured other failures.

The Vikings were running at will. Kirk Cousins had been efficient and had not turned the ball over all game — and still hasn't turned over the ball all season.

The Vikings offensive line was having a great day in the running game and had improved vastly over Week 1 in pass blocking. The Vikings have two star receivers to go with their all-world running back.

So why did coach Mike Zimmer run about 40 seconds off the clock and settle for a 37-yard-field goal from an inexperienced kicker? An experienced quarterback and star running back might have scored a touchdown, or made the field goal a chip shot.

Cousins' stat line is gaudy, but in a game in which he had the advantage of a great running game and good protection, he produced three offensive points in the second half.

Justin Jefferson, the wonderful second-year receiver, dropped a long Cousins pass down the sideline.

The Vikings' defense, even with Danielle Hunter playing like his old self, allowed 34 points.

But, sure, blame the kicker.

In sports as in politics and business, always follow the money.

The Vikings have decided to pay a lot of talented players a lot of money, and they have routinely overspent in relation to production.

Anthony Barr may be a good player, but he was a bad signing. This is the second season in a row in which his injury replacement — Eric Wilson in 2020 and Nick Vigil this year — has made more pivotal plays than we're accustomed to Barr making.

Harrison Smith just signed another big deal, and he is making few pivotal plays.

Then there is Cousins, The Illusionist. He is one of the highest-paid quarterbacks in the league. He is surrounded with skill position talent. Sunday, his offensive line played well. He produced zero offensive touchdowns in the second half of a wide-open game.

His record in Washington: 26-30-1. His record in Minnesota, starting with a season that followed a 13-3 Vikings season: 25-23-1. Career record: 51-53-2. That's what the Vikings are paying $33 million a year for.

Star players are on the field for 50 to 70 plays a game. Coaches spend all week devising schemes and plays and make hundreds of decisions during the game. Kickers jog onto the field and swing their leg a few times a game.

There is a cure for this problem: Deemphasize kicking.

There is no way a field goal should be half as valuable as a touchdown. There is no way an extra point should be half as valuable as a two-point attempt.

Kicking should be a desperate, end-of-half, tiebreaking stratagem, not an accepted feature of modern football.

But then Vikings fans would have to blame their favorite players, not their kicking temp, when they lose.
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These are valid points. But the NFL is a parity league and Arizona is a good team. Many games are going to be one score games and when you give your kicker a 37 yard chip shot to win one, they need to make the $%T^ing kick.

Regarding not running more plays at the end, I'm torn. If you throw the ball, you run the risk of O-line finally breaking and a sack or fumble or interception losing the game, or at the very least leaving 25-30 seconds for Arizona to get the ball back. If you run the ball, I don't think another 5 yards would have mattered, he still would have missed the kick.
 


Unregistered User said:
The Vikings have started the season 0-2 10 times the past 40 years. Average record in those years? 6-10. Give me the under all day, even with the added game.
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I hope for the under. Finally lose so you can get a differential quarterback on a rookie contract. The trouble is they have so many old guys like Barr and Smith signed they still can’t get out of cap hell.
 



From the Parkinglot said:
I hope for the under. Finally lose so you can get a differential quarterback on a rookie contract. The trouble is they have so many old guys like Barr and Smith signed they still can’t get out of cap hell.
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Morons steering the wheel.
 

Meanwhile.....Dan Carlson is 6-6 on field goals and 5-5 on extra points.

30-39 - 2/2
40-49 - 3/3
50+ - 1/1

If nothing else screams inept....it's that this staff has been going through kickers on a nearly yearly basis. But cutting a fifth round kicker who ends up looking like one of the best in the league while their new pickup misses game winners.....well. Not much to say there.
 

one theory I heard - when a kicker attempts a 50+ yard kick, it's not a "gimme" so there is less pressure, and the kicker can just go out there and take a wack at it. But, when it's inside 40 yds, in today's game, the kicker is expected to make it, and there is more pressure.

I forget who said it, but someone said the Vikes should have gone backwards on their final play to make it a longer kick. I mean, Joseph has nailed 50+ yd kicks in both games this year. It seems like he has more problems on the in-between kicks - including extra points - that are in that 30- 35 yard area.

But, if you are assessing blame, don't forget some of the defensive breakdowns - like not covering bleepin' Rondale Moore. You can lose a game in the 1st quarter just as much as the 4th Qtr.
 

howeda7 said:
These are valid points. But the NFL is a parity league and Arizona is a good team. Many games are going to be one score games and when you give your kicker a 37 yard chip shot to win one, they need to make the $%T^ing kick.

Regarding not running more plays at the end, I'm torn. If you throw the ball, you run the risk of O-line finally breaking and a sack or fumble or interception losing the game, or at the very least leaving 25-30 seconds for Arizona to get the ball back. If you run the ball, I don't think another 5 yards would have mattered, he still would have missed the kick.
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Actually, that trajectory he had was so close, you might think 5 yards closer might have been half a foot inside the post instead of half a foot outside. We'll never know.

I know this is silly -- I think it is silly -- but a small part of me wonders if he was anticipating getting iced with their final TO, and it was off-putting, even subconsciously, that they didn't. I was surprised they didn't, seems the norm.
 

TruthSeeker said:
The Vikings drafted 11 players in 2021. Not a single player we drafted played on offense or defense on Sunday. Only on Special Teams.
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Darrisaw would have if he hadn't been injured.

Gladney would be starting CB this year if he hadn't punched his gf.

Hughes, horrible luck with us, now he'll probably be pro-bowl with KC.


[Burns voice]whaddya gonna f'ing do???[/]
 


stocker08 said:
Nonsense. The fact is that the offense did more than enough throughout the game. And they drove down the field in the final couple of minutes and put Joseph in position to win the game with a very makeable FG. Yesterday the Power Trip found that from that distance.....88% are made. There's no excuse for missing that. Not to mention that we lost by one point and Joseph had missed an extra point earlier in the game.

Point is that to beat a very good team like the Cardinals.....you have to play a great game with limited mistakes. Joseph made two extremely costly errors. Breeland is the only other player that deserves equal grief.
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We just have to accept the fact that Cards offense is going to score 34? Nothing else they could've done?
 

MplsGopher said:
We just have to accept the fact that Cards offense is going to score 34? Nothing else they could've done?
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The Cards offense is going to score a LOT of points all year. They put up 38 on the Titans in Tennessee week one. Fact is.....the Vikings did enough to put the kicker in a position to kick what should be a fairly routine field goal. One that is made at nearly a nine out of ten pace. Tons of things could have gone differently in the game.....but the kicker has ONE job. Go through a motion that he's probably gone through ten of thousands of times. Is it legitimate to complain if the hold was bad? Sure. Wind. I guess. A defender getting a hand on the ball? Of course. But he just pushed it right. If he or anyone else thinks the blame should be on the offense and defense for not locking up the game so that he didn't have to attempt a 37 yard field goal.....he shouldn't be playing in the NFL.
 

stocker08 said:
The Cards offense is going to score a LOT of points all year. They put up 38 on the Titans in Tennessee week one. Fact is.....the Vikings did enough to put the kicker in a position to kick what should be a fairly routine field goal. One that is made at nearly a nine out of ten pace. Tons of things could have gone differently in the game.....but the kicker has ONE job. Go through a motion that he's probably gone through ten of thousands of times. Is it legitimate to complain if the hold was bad? Sure. Wind. I guess. A defender getting a hand on the ball? Of course. But he just pushed it right. If he or anyone else thinks the blame should be on the offense and defense for not locking up the game so that he didn't have to attempt a 37 yard field goal.....he shouldn't be playing in the NFL.
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The kicker is far more to blame for missing the XP, than missing the final FG. Both the offense in the 2nd half, minus the final drive, and the defense could have done plenty more to prevent the need for that final attempt.

And the kicker missed the game winner.

All of the above is true.
 

MplsGopher said:
The kicker is far more to blame for missing the XP, than missing the final FG. Both the offense in the 2nd half, minus the final drive, and the defense could have done plenty more to prevent the need for that final attempt.

And the kicker missed the game winner.

All of the above is true.
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The kicker has little excuse for missing either. The offense put up enough points to hang with the Cards high powered offense. And the defense is on the field for half the game. Mistakes will happen as they have multiple jobs and have to deal with split second decisions. Again....Breeland was bad.

Fact is......the team put Joseph in position to win the game for the team on a 37 yard field goal. A very high percentage length. And he pushed it.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
one theory I heard - when a kicker attempts a 50+ yard kick, it's not a "gimme" so there is less pressure, and the kicker can just go out there and take a wack at it. But, when it's inside 40 yds, in today's game, the kicker is expected to make it, and there is more pressure.
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This is absolutely true, has been forever really.

No excuse for missing that kick though. The Cardinals field is routinely voted one of the best fields in the league by the players, opening week regular season, the surface was immaculate. He pushed it right, pretty much a dead giveaway of a choke job. You miss right, 9 times out of 10 you didn't make a good strong pass at the ball. He choked, and I have always been one to hate, hate, HATE saying that when it comes to kicks but in this case, no other way to say it.
 

stocker08 said:
The kicker has little excuse for missing either. The offense put up enough points to hang with the Cards high powered offense. And the defense is on the field for half the game. Mistakes will happen as they have multiple jobs and have to deal with split second decisions. Again....Breeland was bad.

Fact is......the team put Joseph in position to win the game for the team on a 37 yard field goal. A very high percentage length. And he pushed it.
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The team put the offense in position to get more points. The team put the defense in position to prevent more points.

Nope. That argument doesn't do it for me. It's a team game.


But Vikings fanbase is a bitter, bitter bunch, and rightfully so.
 

No one saying anything about the high snap. Maybe the holder angled it just slightly wrong.

No one saying anything about that Cards coach did not try to ice him with the final timeout, which almost always happens now a days. Can you think of a time off the top of your head when the opposing coach still had timeouts and didn't use at least one to ice? I can't. Maybe Cards coach is a genius.
 

MplsGopher said:
No one saying anything about the high snap. Maybe the holder angled it just slightly wrong.

No one saying anything about that Cards coach did not try to ice him with the final timeout, which almost always happens now a days. Can you think of a time off the top of your head when the opposing coach still had timeouts and didn't use at least one to ice? I can't. Maybe Cards coach is a genius.
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I thought the same thing, that perhaps because kickers expect to be iced that it messed with his psyche (maybe the long snapper too).
 

Ope3 said:
I thought the same thing, that perhaps because kickers expect to be iced that it messed with his psyche (maybe the long snapper too).
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You'd think there would be less pressure then. Like "well this one will probably be blown dead anyway this is basically just a practice kick."
 


tmvander said:
You'd think there would be less pressure then. Like "well this one will probably be blown dead anyway this is basically just a practice kick."
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And hence "I can use it to gauge and get a feel, and doesn't matter if I miss."
 
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