6 years with Coach Fleck

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PMWinSTP said:
Yep. They still won and were ranked top 10. If it was the Gophs instead in 2020, pretty sure we wouldn't be discounting it.
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I would be.
Indiana fans are when they fire their coach next season just 3 years removed from their “best season” in the modern era.
 


The two sides to PJ Fleck:

1. The most wins by a Gophers coach through six seasons since 1905.

2. Could have maybe made the Citrus Bowl this year but didn't.

At Minnesota we know:

1. What is realistic for a program that is not Alabama or Ohio State.

2. And yet can this program please move up just one step?

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MNVCGUY said:
The Badgers and Hawkeyes are recruiting at the same level on paper that we are under Fleck. None of our programs are landing 5* guys outside of very rare occasions. Our recruiting classes on paper are right in line with everyone in the Big Ten outside of the Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State crowd.
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Team Talent by year:

22 50th Overall....11th B1G
21 44th Overall....10th B1G
20 45th Overall....11th B1G
19 46th Overall....10th B1G
18 48th Overall....10th B1G
17 63rd Overall....12th B1G

So our recruiting is on paper are right in line with everyone else in the B1G yet we've leapt from 12th all the way to 10th/11th in six years.

The next two years will be interesting to see where we are as a program.
 

caliGopher said:
Team Talent by year:

22 50th Overall....11th B1G
21 44th Overall....10th B1G
20 45th Overall....11th B1G
19 46th Overall....10th B1G
18 48th Overall....10th B1G
17 63rd Overall....12th B1G

So our recruiting is on paper are right in line with everyone else in the B1G yet we've leapt from 12th all the way to 10th/11th in six years.

The next two years will be interesting to see where we are as a program.
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Team recruiting rankings are worthless, always have been. But if we want to pretend that our talent is really back half of the conference then Fleck is doing a hell of a job because we are finishing much higher than that every year.

So in terms of the Big Ten this is how our bottom of the barrel talent on paper has done on the actual field.

22 - 11th talent - 4th best record
21 - 10th talent - tied for the 5th best record
20 - 11th talent - 7th best record - covid craziness and all
19 - 10th talent - 3rd best record
18 - 10th talent - 8th best record
17 - 12th talent - 9th best record
 



I assume losing coaches means the program is seen as strong internally. Good coaches get their assistants poached.

Look at the Bill Walsh coaching tree, as the most famous example.

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We have that.

I also believe Fleck has outperformed with his recruits.

Multiple computer models show a strong program -- stronger than ranking. They are not everything but they are an indicator.

If Minnesota for decades has been trapped in a certain range, I think it's fair to say that PJ bumped that up a notch with not much more to do that with.

And the rub is that he almost -- almost -- went up another notch. Big difference between the Citrus Bowl and the Crap Baseball Field Turf Bowl.

Not complaining just saying...

Five straight bowl wins, FYI.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Team recruiting rankings are worthless, always have been. But if we want to pretend that our talent is really back half of the conference then Fleck is doing a hell of a job because we are finishing much higher than that every year.

So in terms of the Big Ten this is how our bottom of the barrel talent on paper has done on the actual field.

22 - 11th talent - 4th best record
21 - 10th talent - tied for the 5th best record
20 - 11th talent - 7th best record - covid craziness and all
19 - 10th talent - 3rd best record
18 - 10th talent - 8th best record
17 - 12th talent - 9th best record
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So one of the big reasons PJ was such a great hire, was his recruiting prowess. 6 years in, his results don't matter. Got it.

I agree that rankings are subjective at best, but is subjective across the board. Nebraska continues to be higher ranked in team talent, but hasn't done much with it, so there is that.

We did jump from 63 to the mid 40's so one could argue that Fleck brought about a large jump and then has stayed there, until this past year, where we took a 1/4 to 1/2 step back, but the rankings were meaningless in 2017, so that doesn't matter, right?

If you want to accurately compare records, you have to adjust for the variance in schedules. Might Maryland/Indiana/Rutgers/Michigan State have done better if they swapped out Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State for three teams in the west? I'm guessing if we traded out Northwestern, Nebraska, and Illinois from our schedule the past 6 years with Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State in all of those years, PJ's record wouldn't look as good to some as it does now. Would that make him a better or worse coach?

PJ has done some things that we haven't seen here in a long time statistically. Unfortunately Iowa is the best Prevent Offense team in America, and we haven't been able to solve that. I doubt anyone in the B1G looks forward to playing us, but we do not strike fear in the hearts of our opponents any time we line up to play. We are beatable, just ask Purdue this year, Bowling Green last year, Maryland in 2020, GA Southern and South Dakota State in 2019 (the outliers, as we managed to pull off wins in both of those games), Illinois in 2018, and Purdue in 2017.

The sad thing? In Fleck's two "magical" seasons - at Western and Here, the offense didn't suck. It appears he may actually be a better coach than he has shown.

He has stated winning isn't everything, but he certainly fears losing to the point he creates that opportunity regularly AND has stated (after the Purdue game) that he doesn't learn from his mistakes tripling down on the stupid 4th and 1 decision on his own 30 yard line after it costing him two winnable games, in consecutive years, against teams we should have beaten - and this year would have put us in the B1G title game at 6-3 in conference and 10-3 overall (and let's face it, without the absolutely ridiculous loss to Bowling Green, there's a good chance Fleck would have had substantive offers to go somewhere else, probably for a "pay cut", but he would have had chances).

Should we be able to gain 1 yard? Yes. With our defense, why would you continue to throw games away with that call? Good/Great coaches don't blow opportunities like we had this year with a pathetically bad schedule on stupid calls with a Defense reliably stopping teams throughout the season.

Just saying.
 

caliGopher said:
So one of the big reasons PJ was such a great hire, was his recruiting prowess. 6 years in, his results don't matter. Got it.

I agree that rankings are subjective at best, but is subjective across the board. Nebraska continues to be higher ranked in team talent, but hasn't done much with it, so there is that.

We did jump from 63 to the mid 40's so one could argue that Fleck brought about a large jump and then has stayed there, until this past year, where we took a 1/4 to 1/2 step back, but the rankings were meaningless in 2017, so that doesn't matter, right?
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So his on field results are significantly better then what his on paper recruiting would indicate and you see that as a failure in recruiting because he isn't winning the on paper recruiting battles? Makes sense.

I'm not one who obsesses about or puts much stock in recruiting rankings. Are we bringing in talent on par with Wisconsin, Iowa, Purde.....the answer to that question under Fleck is yes. The little 4 digit numbers next to the kids name are meaningless as long as they are players that can compete in the Big Ten.

There are things to gripe about, we have missed opportunities to win the West outright and have had the struggles against Iowa, losing some very winnable games. Recruiting is not a problem.
 



caliGopher said:
So one of the big reasons PJ was such a great hire, was his recruiting prowess. 6 years in, his results don't matter. Got it.

I agree that rankings are subjective at best, but is subjective across the board. Nebraska continues to be higher ranked in team talent, but hasn't done much with it, so there is that.

We did jump from 63 to the mid 40's so one could argue that Fleck brought about a large jump and then has stayed there, until this past year, where we took a 1/4 to 1/2 step back, but the rankings were meaningless in 2017, so that doesn't matter, right?

If you want to accurately compare records, you have to adjust for the variance in schedules. Might Maryland/Indiana/Rutgers/Michigan State have done better if they swapped out Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State for three teams in the west? I'm guessing if we traded out Northwestern, Nebraska, and Illinois from our schedule the past 6 years with Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State in all of those years, PJ's record wouldn't look as good to some as it does now. Would that make him a better or worse coach?

PJ has done some things that we haven't seen here in a long time statistically. Unfortunately Iowa is the best Prevent Offense team in America, and we haven't been able to solve that. I doubt anyone in the B1G looks forward to playing us, but we do not strike fear in the hearts of our opponents any time we line up to play. We are beatable, just ask Purdue this year, Bowling Green last year, Maryland in 2020, GA Southern and South Dakota State in 2019 (the outliers, as we managed to pull off wins in both of those games), Illinois in 2018, and Purdue in 2017.

The sad thing? In Fleck's two "magical" seasons - at Western and Here, the offense didn't suck. It appears he may actually be a better coach than he has shown.

He has stated winning isn't everything, but he certainly fears losing to the point he creates that opportunity regularly AND has stated (after the Purdue game) that he doesn't learn from his mistakes tripling down on the stupid 4th and 1 decision on his own 30 yard line after it costing him two winnable games, in consecutive years, against teams we should have beaten - and this year would have put us in the B1G title game at 6-3 in conference and 10-3 overall (and let's face it, without the absolutely ridiculous loss to Bowling Green, there's a good chance Fleck would have had substantive offers to go somewhere else, probably for a "pay cut", but he would have had chances).

Should we be able to gain 1 yard? Yes. With our defense, why would you continue to throw games away with that call? Good/Great coaches don't blow opportunities like we had this year with a pathetically bad schedule on stupid calls with a Defense reliably stopping teams throughout the season.

Just saying.
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This is a lot of words to not really say anything.
 

caliGopher said:
So one of the big reasons PJ was such a great hire, was his recruiting prowess. 6 years in, his results don't matter. Got it.

I agree that rankings are subjective at best, but is subjective across the board. Nebraska continues to be higher ranked in team talent, but hasn't done much with it, so there is that.

We did jump from 63 to the mid 40's so one could argue that Fleck brought about a large jump and then has stayed there, until this past year, where we took a 1/4 to 1/2 step back, but the rankings were meaningless in 2017, so that doesn't matter, right?

If you want to accurately compare records, you have to adjust for the variance in schedules. Might Maryland/Indiana/Rutgers/Michigan State have done better if they swapped out Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State for three teams in the west? I'm guessing if we traded out Northwestern, Nebraska, and Illinois from our schedule the past 6 years with Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State in all of those years, PJ's record wouldn't look as good to some as it does now. Would that make him a better or worse coach?

PJ has done some things that we haven't seen here in a long time statistically. Unfortunately Iowa is the best Prevent Offense team in America, and we haven't been able to solve that. I doubt anyone in the B1G looks forward to playing us, but we do not strike fear in the hearts of our opponents any time we line up to play. We are beatable, just ask Purdue this year, Bowling Green last year, Maryland in 2020, GA Southern and South Dakota State in 2019 (the outliers, as we managed to pull off wins in both of those games), Illinois in 2018, and Purdue in 2017.

The sad thing? In Fleck's two "magical" seasons - at Western and Here, the offense didn't suck. It appears he may actually be a better coach than he has shown.

He has stated winning isn't everything, but he certainly fears losing to the point he creates that opportunity regularly AND has stated (after the Purdue game) that he doesn't learn from his mistakes tripling down on the stupid 4th and 1 decision on his own 30 yard line after it costing him two winnable games, in consecutive years, against teams we should have beaten - and this year would have put us in the B1G title game at 6-3 in conference and 10-3 overall (and let's face it, without the absolutely ridiculous loss to Bowling Green, there's a good chance Fleck would have had substantive offers to go somewhere else, probably for a "pay cut", but he would have had chances).

Should we be able to gain 1 yard? Yes. With our defense, why would you continue to throw games away with that call? Good/Great coaches don't blow opportunities like we had this year with a pathetically bad schedule on stupid calls with a Defense reliably stopping teams throughout the season.

Just saying.
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It is interesting how the narrative on recruiting has changed in the last six years here.
 

PMWinSTP said:
It is interesting how the narrative on recruiting has changed in the last six years here.
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What should the narrative be in your opinion? Our recruiting classes are on par with our competition and the results on the field reflect the fact that the players we are bringing in are on par with the guys at the schools at our level (not comparing to Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State tier which is not realistic for us to reach).
 

MNVCGUY said:
What should the narrative be in your opinion? Our recruiting classes are on par with our competition and the results on the field reflect the fact that the players we are bringing in are on par with the guys at the schools at our level (not comparing to Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State tier which is not realistic for us to reach).
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The narrative changed from what has been posted. Fleck would upgrade the recruiting and ranking to ranking doesn't really matter. Nationally the classes have been ranked higher, but not so much compared to others in the B1G.
 



DanvilleGopher said:
Why in the world would you say that?

This right here is my problem with some folks on this board. My dad feels the same way. He thinks what Fleck has done is the ceiling and he's actually surprised by what he's done.

Why do people here (I actually live in Ca. now BUT I'm still a Minnesotan at heart!) feel this way? Why do we not 'feel' we can do better? Why can we not be better than Wisconsin and Iowa, or at least match what they do?
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We cannot match Wisconsin or Iowa because we cannot recruit like them. We are dead last in the conference. It is not all the coaches fault, we just do not have the glamour and rep that our rivals do. We need to get to the BIG championship if will still be held. We Had our chance to win the division a few times. Need to get over that hump.
 

gopherjay said:
We cannot match Wisconsin or Iowa because we cannot recruit like them. We are dead last in the conference. It is not all the coaches fault, we just do not have the glamour and rep that our rivals do. We need to get to the BIG championship if will still be held. We Had our chance to win the division a few times. Need to get over that hump.
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Maybe missing the joke but we absolutely can match Iowa and Wisconsin and already do recruit like them.
 

PMWinSTP said:
The narrative changed from what has been posted. Fleck would upgrade the recruiting and ranking to ranking doesn't really matter. Nationally the classes have been ranked higher, but not so much compared to others in the B1G.
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Two questions

1. Do you believe coaches make decisions in recruiting based on the ranking sites like Rivals and 247 give players?
2. Do you think they should? Should we not take players we want in order to try and get a player the recruiting sites like more in order to make sure we win the on paper recruiting wars?

Part of the reason Fleck was hired was to upgrade recruiting and he has done that...we are now bringing in players with interest from other power 5 schools and players that are on par with the players that Iowa, Wisconsin.....are bringing in. We are no longer at a talent deficit in comparison to the teams we are in direct competition with. We aren't recruiting on the level of Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State and the reality is that we probably never will given the way the college football landscape is structured. It doesn't matter who the coach is.
 

Plato said:
At the risk of being redundant, it is the conference record that really counts.
Using that index PJ is behind his peers, in the so-to-be-forgotten West.
The majority seem to be content with that.
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He's over 500 after a slow start. Keep doing that and his career mark will be over 500 as soon as next season.
 

PMWinSTP said:
The narrative changed from what has been posted. Fleck would upgrade the recruiting and ranking to ranking doesn't really matter. Nationally the classes have been ranked higher, but not so much compared to others in the B1G.
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Prior to PJ decent % of our recruits other top offers were Mac schools. It worked for kill and company, found guys to fit his style.

PJ has upgraded that, sure we get few players with no other P5 offers but many of our recruits we're one of multiple p5.

He's also done with transfers which don't count in rankings.

If you look at average scores we're also higher than before and on par with our rivals. Class 30-40 range are pretty interchangeable.


Every school gets highly rated kids that turn out to be duds and unknown low ranked guys that end up playing Sunday.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Two questions

1. Do you believe coaches make decisions in recruiting based on the ranking sites like Rivals and 247 give players?
2. Do you think they should? Should we not take players we want in order to try and get a player the recruiting sites like more in order to make sure we win the on paper recruiting wars?

Part of the reason Fleck was hired was to upgrade recruiting and he has done that...we are now bringing in players with interest from other power 5 schools and players that are on par with the players that Iowa, Wisconsin.....are bringing in. We are no longer at a talent deficit in comparison to the teams we are in direct competition with. We aren't recruiting on the level of Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State and the reality is that we probably never will given the way the college football landscape is structured. It doesn't matter who the coach is.
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Pretty silly questions but that's how recruits are graded. Do you think recruits look at ranking sites and where teams fall?
 

PMWinSTP said:
Pretty silly questions but that's how recruits are graded. Do you think recruits look at ranking sites and where teams fall?
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Recruiting sites grade recruits for fans not coaches. Coaches do their own evaluation of recruits and they look way deeper than the surface info that the recruiting sites base their evaluations off of.
So will say again, Fleck's job is to upgrade recruiting (which he has done), where we fall in the recruiting rankings is meaningless if he is bringing in players that are as talented as the schools we should be recruiting alongside of (Iowa, Wisconsin....).

Based on the recruiting sites, Scott Frost was kicking butt over all the coaches in the West. How did that work out for Nebraska with all that high ranked talent they were bringing in?

Team talent rankings (based on what the kid was rated coming out of high school), team recruiting rankings (done the year the players commit) are garbage. Yet some fans eat them up and treat them like they have value or should be viewed as accurate.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Two questions

1. Do you believe coaches make decisions in recruiting based on the ranking sites like Rivals and 247 give players?
2. Do you think they should? Should we not take players we want in order to try and get a player the recruiting sites like more in order to make sure we win the on paper recruiting wars?

Part of the reason Fleck was hired was to upgrade recruiting and he has done that...we are now bringing in players with interest from other power 5 schools and players that are on par with the players that Iowa, Wisconsin.....are bringing in. We are no longer at a talent deficit in comparison to the teams we are in direct competition with. We aren't recruiting on the level of Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State and the reality is that we probably never will given the way the college football landscape is structured. It doesn't matter who the coach is.
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Like you, I do not have a problem with Fleck's recruiting because you can tell from the results we are right there talent-wise, especially with Wisconsin and Iowa. We aren't getting blown out by teams just from talent alone like we used to do fairly regularly. I believe the playing field has been levelled with most of the teams we play and we have a chance to win almost every week. We could still beat someone like a Michigan or Ohio St. next year, but it WILL be tough as our talent probably is not quite there yet. But it is getting closer, though!
 

MNVCGUY said:
Recruiting sites grade recruits for fans not coaches. Coaches do their own evaluation of recruits and they look way deeper than the surface info that the recruiting sites base their evaluations off of.
So will say again, Fleck's job is to upgrade recruiting (which he has done), where we fall in the recruiting rankings is meaningless if he is bringing in players that are as talented as the schools we should be recruiting alongside of (Iowa, Wisconsin....).

Based on the recruiting sites, Scott Frost was kicking butt over all the coaches in the West. How did that work out for Nebraska with all that high ranked talent they were bringing in?

Team talent rankings (based on what the kid was rated coming out of high school), team recruiting rankings (done the year the players commit) are garbage. Yet some fans eat them up and treat them like they have value or should be viewed as accurate.
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The narrative by some now is that compared to his peers in the B1G, he has not really moved the recruiting needle,...a rising recruiting tide. The Nebraska and Tennessee recruiting arguments were brought up with Kill as well.
 
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Gold Rush said:
Like you, I do not have a problem with Fleck's recruiting because you can tell from the results we are right there talent-wise, especially with Wisconsin and Iowa. We aren't getting blown out by teams just from talent alone like we used to do fairly regularly. I believe the playing field has been levelled with most of the teams we play and we have a chance to win almost every week. We could still beat someone like a Michigan or Ohio St. next year, but it WILL be tough as our talent probably is not quite there yet. But it is getting closer, though!
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The reality is that we are always likely to be at a talent deficit against teams like Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State. Just means we have to play mistake free football against teams like that to make up for it.

But we have clearly made the transition from also ran to contender in the division and conference as a whole. Which should be proof that there is more to recruiting than getting the guys the recruiting sites think are the best but for some that message still hasn't gotten through and they spend time worrying about class rank and how it isn't up near the top of the conference.

The challenge for Fleck now is continuing to push the team up to even higher levels. We were pretty unlikely to get into the playoff in the 4 team format, with it expanding the chances go up quite a bit for programs like ours. We haven't reached our ceiling but as I said in another post we aren't all that far from it either.
 

PMWinSTP said:
The narrative by some now is that compared to his peers in the B1G, he has not really moved the recruiting needl,...a rising recruiting tide. The Nebraska and Tennessee recruiting arguments were brought up with Kill as well.
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With all due respect to those people they clearly aren't paying attention to what is going on on the field then and are only looking at recruiting rankings.

Last 3 full years:
MN - 29-10
Iowa - 28-12
Wisc - 26-14

There is room to get better and we all hope to see the team continue to get better and take the next step up. But clearly we are bringing in players that can compete with our peers in the Big Ten. There isn't a clear talent deficit between us and most of the opponents we step onto the field against. That hasn't always been the case around here.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Jeebus phuck. Go back to the drunken Sconnie board and masturbate to the thought of Fuke Lickle coaching the Fadgers.
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So in order to be a Gopher fan, one must buy into the insane hyperbolization of every factoid and stat you can blow dust off in an attempt to make Peej and what he's done with the program look closer to Saban than Mason? Newsflash for you: outside of GH, 90% of the Gopher fans I know, understand the little Emperor is a whole lot more sizzle than steak.
 

Wooty_Woot said:
So in order to be a Gopher fan, one must buy into the insane hyperbolization of every factoid and stat you can blow dust off in an attempt to make Peej and what he's done with the program look closer to Saban than Mason? Newsflash for you: outside of GH, 90% of the Gopher fans I know, understand the little Emperor is a whole lot more sizzle than steak.
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lol....yeah how could anyone doubt you are a Gopher football fan with great insightful posts like that one.

You are a few years late to the party though. This kind of blind hatred of Fleck was more accepted back in 2017-18 when his fast talking ways really scared some of the locals who had gotten accustomed to the slow southern drawl of the previous guy....from Illinois......
 

MNVCGUY said:
lol....yeah how could anyone doubt you are a Gopher football fan with great insightful posts like that one.

You are a few years late to the party though. This kind of blind hatred of Fleck was more accepted back in 2017-18 when his fast talking ways really scared some of the locals who had gotten accustomed to the slow southern drawl of the previous guy....from Illinois......
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You really need to get out more often! lol
 

MNVCGUY said:
With all due respect to those people they clearly aren't paying attention to what is going on on the field then and are only looking at recruiting rankings.

Last 3 full years:
MN - 29-10
Iowa - 28-12
Wisc - 26-14

There is room to get better and we all hope to see the team continue to get better and take the next step up. But clearly we are bringing in players that can compete with our peers in the Big Ten. There isn't a clear talent deficit between us and most of the opponents we step onto the field against. That hasn't always been the case around here.
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And Wisconsin changed coaches while a lot of Iowa wants their guy gone for that performance....here, we build statutes, claim NYD bowl game appearances and fly 1/2 division co-runners up flags all while extending and raising every year while the staff turns over like a merry-go-round and claim that's because we so mofo good.
 

Wooty_Woot said:
And Wisconsin changed coaches while a lot of Iowa wants their guy gone for that performance....here, we build statutes, claim NYD bowl game appearances and fly 1/2 division co-runners up flags all while extending and raising every year while the staff turns over like a merry-go-round and claim that's because we so mofo good.
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Which statues are you talking about?
 

Covid year doesn't count.

2017 and 2018 were ramping up.


Fleck's tenure is really 2019, 2021, and 2022.

Lot of good.

But also three years where the (outright) West title was there for the taking, with pretty good schedules, and didn't get it done.


There is still another gear to hit. I do think Fleck can get there. TCU certainly gives people a lot of hope.
 

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