5 commitments in 1 weekend? What do Gopherholers think of that?!

[John Galt]

Fleck was brought in to win. Correct?

Crootin is great. Just win pj.

Absolutely. In the end that’s the only reason to follow recruiting - because you expect it to correlate to wins and losses.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Sure did. ESPN sucks - but I'm not the one who made the original incorrect claim.

Lol claim ESPN is worthless, then use them to try and make a point. Can't make it up.

 

[Iceland12]

The signing numbers for the weekend seemed fine to me with the caveat of course being how the hell do we know before they play?

2017 Composite rankings were generally pretty close but there were differences among services and teams. At that time Scout and ESPN were pretty close and 247 and Rivals were the same, but much lower.


Overall - Team - 247 - ESPN - Rivals - Scout - Average

49 Minnesota 51 - 41 - 51 -38 - 45.25

http://usatodayhss.com/2017/latest-2017-college-football-recruiting-composite-team-rankings

 

[dpodoll68]

Lol claim ESPN is worthless, then use them to try and make a point. Can't make it up.

No, you're the one who included ESPN in your original post by failing to be specific. And don't put words in my mouth - I didn't say that ESPN is worthless.

 

[Iceland12]

No, you're the one who included ESPN in your original post by failing to be specific. And don't put words in my mouth - I didn't say that ESPN is worthless.

It's what he does. You weren't expecting a rational response from him were you?

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I'm not sure who "we" is, but in my opinion Fleck will lead us to more future success than Kill/Claeys would have but I'm not sure that will be more than 8 or 9 wins in a season. If we could mess with the space/time continuum and hire Fleck in 2010 I think he could have won the West in those down years...but that is not reality. In an ever improving conference, if Fleck can somehow surpass Kill's success it will be a minor miracle.

Lower the bar enough and anyone will flop over it. You don't fire a coach and endure a painful rebuild just to match the results of the old guy. If fleck does not exceed kill or claeys' high water mark, it was a failed move.

 

[John Galt]

Lol claim ESPN is worthless, then use them to try and make a point. Can't make it up.

We all knew what you meant GWG. Even the guy who is insufferable.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

No, you're the one who included ESPN in your original post by failing to be specific. And don't put words in my mouth - I didn't say that ESPN is worthless.

I guess I misunderstood that the terms 'sucks' and 'worthless' are so very different from each other. From now on I will try to bolster the accomplishments of others by using sources that 'suck'. I'm so excited by this revelation that I may not sleep tonight now that I've been enlightened by the semantics police.

 

[Urbandale]

Lower the bar enough and anyone will flop over it. You don't fire a coach and endure a painful rebuild just to match the results of the old guy. If fleck does not exceed kill or claeys' high water mark, it was a failed move.

I disagree. If you think that the future with the original coach will trend down, for whatever reasons you think that, then that's a perfectly logical reason to make the move.

 

[dpodoll68]

I guess I misunderstood that the terms 'sucks' and 'worthless' are so very different from each other. From now on I will try to bolster the accomplishments of others by using sources that 'suck'. I'm so excited by this revelation that I may not sleep tonight now that I've been enlightened by the semantics police.

Again, I didn't use that source - I corrected your inaccurate reference to that and other sources.

And yes, sucks and worthless are not synonymous terms. To use an example - your posts here suck, but they occasionally have worth.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Some here might need a bigger tool...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SfFXSGT2qtA?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

Both staffs haven proven they are able to gather enough talent to win in the MAC.

Only 1 staff went to the Cotton Bowl and was ranked in the top 15 in the nation. Only 1 staff was able to stay within a score of Wisconsin.


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[Some Day...Maybe]

Fleck isn't half as good as Jerry in the Xs and Os so Fleck better be twice as good as Jerry in recruiting.

Yet Fleck won the MAC, Jerry didn’t, Fleck went 13-0, Jerry didn’t. Also, how could he be “twice” as good in recruiting? Get all 6 stars???


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[WorkingMyTailOff]

I disagree. If you think that the future with the original coach will trend down, for whatever reasons you think that, then that's a perfectly logical reason to make the move.

Good point.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

My opinion, Jerry and staff prepared and coached the best they could with what they had selected and almost got there. In the end, having a team of MAC players wasn't enough in the Big Ten. hypothetically, If i am given a roster of players and get to select a coach and staff for a single game and can choose Jerry or PJ. I'll take Jerry every time.

I duno, Jerry had a LONG time with a wonky offense, if he didn't get better player's that's on him too... and Jerry stuck with that same wonkyness and staff all the way. I'm not convinced there is any evidence that Jerry and Co could do better offensively, even with better players.

I like Jerry and all, I like what he did here. But I never thought of him being or having a great staff as far as doing a great deal offensively. Certainly not game day coaching.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

My opinion, Jerry and staff prepared and coached the best they could with what they had selected and almost got there. In the end, having a team of MAC players wasn't enough in the Big Ten. hypothetically, If i am given a roster of players and get to select a coach and staff for a single game and can choose Jerry or PJ. I'll take Jerry every time.

I’d rather select a coach for a full season than just one game. In fact, I’d rather select a coach for multiple seasons than just one game. So you’d rather have Kill for one game, who would you rather have for multiple seasons?


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[Some Day...Maybe]

Want to make a bet on where the class ends up on NSD II? Shall we set an over/under?

I'm not critizing; there are a lot of great prospects but let's deal in reality here.

If it’s around 35th I’ll be stoked. Hope it’s top 45. That would put them as the best back to back recruiting classes in the rankings era right? Minus Brewster’s classes where half the class never saw the field.


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[Some Day...Maybe]

You're correct...the blue-bloods will catch up over time and we will drop. I would put the over/under at about 39.5, which is still absolute light years ahead of our previous 1.5 regimes. It ridiculous to not admit that, according to the only metrics we have, we are not recruiting at a higher level under Fleck. We will just have to wait and see if success follows.

Fleck's recruiting, in my opinion, is very much like our new facilities. They don't guarantee success but they will at least put us in the same game with our peers. Kill benefited (to my complete joy) in the win/loss column from a very weak Big10. Nebraska, Michigan, and PSU were down - now they are all back (Nebraska is prediction, admittedly). Purdue was awful (seem to be on the upswing). Wisconsin, Illinois, and jNW are about comparable between tenures for better or worse. My overall point is that Fleck's increase in recruiting prowess may only net out to getting to the same 8/9 wins that Kill/Claeys did, but it's still better than what could have been. Maybe we will catch lightning in a bottle and win the West but we have a TON of ground to make up.

Great post.


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[Halsey Hall]

I’ll give a SON response:

Look, no one knows how good these players are. They may be good, or maybe not. I won’t hold my breath. We’ll know more in 4-5 years and can evaluate them then.

Guaranteed to be correct...

 

[Pompous Elitist]

If it’s around 35th I’ll be stoked. Hope it’s top 45. That would put them as the best back to back recruiting classes in the rankings era right? Minus Brewster’s classes where half the class never saw the field.


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Wisconsin’s been punching above their weight for a long time with worse or equivalent classes. Iowa same. NW...

Can PJ? I guess we’re going to find out.

 

[hungan1]

Wisconsin’s been punching above their weight for a long time with worse or equivalent classes. Iowa same. NW...

Can PJ? I guess we’re going to find out.

The data shows that Wisconsin has been able to stay consistently at the top in B1G West recruiting.

Analyzing 2015-2017 data shows that Wisconsin talent-wise has been consistently at the top of the B1G West at an average of 195.5 team points (247Sports data) with an average national recruiting ranking of 38.33, and an average individual player score of 84.19. They dominate the standings during these years. Only Nebraska at 217.60 average team points, an average national recruiting rank of 26.33, and an average individual player score of 86.94 is higher.

The data for these two teams point out the importance of two things:
1. Being able to consistently recruit talent at a level above the competition.
2. Coaching, system, and player development.

Wisconsin has been very successful at these while Nebraska was underperforming. Nebraska was embroiled in conflicts of sorts in their program and their inability to maximize and develop their talent. Nebraska and Illinois (at a dismal scale) are the under performing teams.

Iowa is the overperformer. They have an average of 180.94 team points (4th best in B1G W), and an average national recruiting ranking of 49.0 (3rd best in B1G W), and and average player score of 82.78 (4th best in B1G W). Yet, they managed to be the second best team in the B1G West.

Peruse through the data. There are interesting stories in the numbers. For instance, the number of 4 & 5 Star recruits and how it impacts the program's success that I won't go over.

Minnesota - if they can maintain an average national recruiting rank of 40th or better, an average player score of 84-86 range, recruit two or three 4 Star players per recruiting class, and maintain close to a 200 average team points, they will put themselves in a better position to contend for the B1G West.

In 2018, they achieved that: 38th National recruiting rank; Three 4 Star players; Average Player Score of 86.22; Total Team Points 206.66. They are off to a similar start with the 2019 recruiting class. These five recent commits, Bargy, Clark and others are putting the Gophers on track.

This is not a guarantee of success as the Nebraska case points out. Hopefully, the coaches and the system that PJ Fleck put in place will maximize the potential for the Gophers. IMO, PJ Fleck is not afraid to change things up or coaches if things don't work out. He is putting Gopher Football Program in the best position to contend.

The data does not lie. National recruiting ranking is a barometer for success. Nebraska in 2015-2017 is an anomally.

It won't be easy. There are four teams ahead of the Gophers historically in the standings with one trying to catch them from behind. Nebraska most likely will improve under Frost. Purdue is making noise with Brohm. Northwestern and Iowa have always been tough on the Gophers. These are the two team the Gophers must beat consistently to get a chance at a crack at the B1G West Title. Wisconsin will be the crowning achievement if the Gophers can catch them. Nebraska is a mystery. The cold war in the tundra has only gotten more interesting.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I disagree. If you think that the future with the original coach will trend down, for whatever reasons you think that, then that's a perfectly logical reason to make the move.

That's a fair point, but when the most recent season is also the best season, that is a weird time to conclude you are trending down. If the coach peaks and then has several weak seasons afterwards, I can understand concluding its time to make a move to try to get back to where the current coach used to be.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

The data shows that Wisconsin has been able to stay consistently at the top in B1G West recruiting.

Analyzing 2015-2017 data shows that Wisconsin talent-wise has been consistently at the top of the B1G West at an average of 195.5 team points (247Sports data) with an average national recruiting ranking of 38.33, and an average individual player score of 84.19. They dominate the standings during these years. Only Nebraska at 217.60 average team points, an average national recruiting rank of 26.33, and an average individual player score of 86.94 is higher.

The data for these two teams point out the importance of two things:
1. Being able to consistently recruit talent at a level above the competition.
2. Coaching, system, and player development.

Wisconsin has been very successful at these while Nebraska was underperforming. Nebraska was embroiled in conflicts of sorts in their program and their inability to maximize and develop their talent. Nebraska and Illinois (at a dismal scale) are the under performing teams.

Iowa is the overperformer. They have an average of 180.94 team points (4th best in B1G W), and an average national recruiting ranking of 49.0 (3rd best in B1G W), and and average player score of 82.78 (4th best in B1G W). Yet, they managed to be the second best team in the B1G West.

Peruse through the data. There are interesting stories in the numbers. For instance, the number of 4 & 5 Star recruits and how it impacts the program's success that I won't go over.

Minnesota - if they can maintain an average national recruiting rank of 40th or better, an average player score of 84-86 range, recruit two or three 4 Star players per recruiting class, and maintain close to a 200 average team points, they will put themselves in a better position to contend for the B1G West.

In 2018, they achieved that: 38th National recruiting rank; Three 4 Star players; Average Player Score of 86.22; Total Team Points 206.66. They are off to a similar start with the 2019 recruiting class. These five recent commits, Bargy, Clark and others are putting the Gophers on track.

This is not a guarantee of success as the Nebraska case points out. Hopefully, the coaches and the system that PJ Fleck put in place will maximize the potential for the Gophers. IMO, PJ Fleck is not afraid to change things up or coaches if things don't work out. He is putting Gopher Football Program in the best position to contend.

The data does not lie. National recruiting ranking is a barometer for success. Nebraska in 2015-2017 is an anomally.

It won't be easy. There are four teams ahead of the Gophers historically in the standings with one trying to catch them from behind. Nebraska most likely will improve under Frost. Purdue is making noise with Brohm. Northwestern and Iowa have always been tough on the Gophers. These are the two team the Gophers must beat consistently to get a chance at a crack at the B1G West Title. Wisconsin will be the crowning achievement if the Gophers can catch them. Nebraska is a mystery. The cold war in the tundra has only gotten more interesting.

View attachment 5548

View attachment 5549

I think the overachievement of Wisconsin/Iowa/NW becomes even more apparent the further back you go (in time). I attribute that to the influence of Alvarez at Wisky, Ferentz at
Iowa, and Pat F. at Northwestern. Excellent coaches and systems that work for them. I think sometimes the recruiting rankings are overweighted somewhat in these sorts of discussions. The best coaching staffs tend to migrate to the winning programs. It’s a mix of what works. Obviously top tier teams rely on elite talent to win championships but mediocre talent can reach a certain level of success (Wisconsin, Iowa, NW and others around the country like TCU).

 

[harrys ghost]

No, you're the one who included ESPN in your original post by failing to be specific. And don't put words in my mouth - I didn't say that ESPN is worthless.

The original post was, "In 6 years of Kill/Claeys recruiting, they were only able to land two 247 composite 4*s, Jeff Jones and Carter Coughlin." This is factually correct. I should say when I read it it was correct. I did not check to see if it had been edited.

 

[dpodoll68]

The original post was, "In 6 years of Kill/Claeys recruiting, they were only able to land two 247 composite 4*s, Jeff Jones and Carter Coughlin." This is factually correct. I should say when I read it it was correct. I did not check to see if it had been edited.

It was edited - the "247 composite" part was added in later.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

It was edited - the "247 composite" part was added in later.

Moving the goal posts is a frequent strategy of posters seeking to validate current coaches who have underperformed relative to their predecessors.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Moving the goal posts is a frequent strategy of posters seeking to validate current coaches who have underperformed relative to their predecessors.

Moving goal posts is a frequent strategy... period.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Moving the goal posts is a frequent strategy of posters seeking to validate current coaches who have underperformed relative to their predecessors.

How did I move the goal posts? It was obvious by the numbers that I was using the 247 composite. I went back and edited my post after DPO's first complaint.

You want to talk about moving the goal posts? When Claeys was fired only 40% of his verbal commits had other P5 offers. All of Fleck's verbals from over the weekend have multiple P5 offers and are from talent rich states such as Florida, Georgia, and Ohio. Many of the same people who try to downplay the recruits that committed this weekend were the biggest defenders of Claeys recruiting. No surprise there though.

 

[BarnBurner]

How did I move the goal posts? It was obvious by the numbers that I was using the 247 composite. I went back and edited my post after DPO's first complaint.

You want to talk about moving the goal posts? When Claeys was fired only 40% of his verbal commits had other P5 offers. All of Fleck's verbals from over the weekend have multiple P5 offers and are from talent rich states such as Florida, Georgia, and Ohio. Many of the same people who try to downplay the recruits that committed this weekend were the biggest defenders of Claeys recruiting. No surprise there though.

Just win weather guy. Just win. No excuses. Year 0.